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post #331 of 356 Old 03-21-2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?

Craig

Installed them this week. Not done Audyssey yet, but they sound awesome. My room is treated. Will run Audyssey once the seats are installed. Would like you to come visit. Thanks


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post #332 of 356 Old 05-04-2013, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!!

I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp. I boxed it up and sent it back to them, ($35 in shipping.) I called a couple days later and talked to the Service Manager, Joe E. He said they hadn't had a chance to look at it yet, but he would call me with an estimate. Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C"

So not only did they fix it for free, they paid for the return shipping... on an amp that was well out of warranty. eek.gifsmile.gif

I just hooked it up in my system. For grins, I hooked it up to my L/R Triad Platinums, just to see how it sounded driving the big boys. The Plat's are usually driven by an Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 5. In stereo, playing Steely Dan, Aja on SACD @ -3, the RPA-1 sounded fabulous. Totally transparent and quiet. The VU meters were barely moving. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!

Craig
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post #333 of 356 Old 05-05-2013, 06:02 AM
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It's good when you get excellent customer service. Good to hear they looked after you Craig.

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post #334 of 356 Old 05-05-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!!

I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp. I boxed it up and sent it back to them, ($35 in shipping.) I called a couple days later and talked to the Service Manager, Joe E. He said they hadn't had a chance to look at it yet, but he would call me with an estimate. Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C"

So not only did they fix it for free, they paid for the return shipping... on an amp that was well out of warranty. eek.gifsmile.gif

I just hooked it up in my system. For grins, I hooked it up to my L/R Triad Platinums, just to see how it sounded driving the big boys. The Plat's are usually driven by an Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 5. In stereo, playing Steely Dan, Aja on SACD @ -3, the RPA-1 sounded fabulous. Totally transparent and quiet. The VU meters were barely moving. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!

Craig

Glad to hear the Emotiva RPA-1 is back in action in the rack! Now, hopefully it won't be too long until Joseph gets your Earthquake amp fixed up too.

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post #335 of 356 Old 05-10-2013, 09:25 AM
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It's great when a company gives customer service like that. It really makes you want to support them. You are just getting the Earthquake "Upgraded" right? I mean, there was nothing wrong with it was there. Your system sounds fantastic as it is and I hope you get back to enjoying it in all it's full glory real soon. On an unrelated note, I had an issue with one of my Bryston amps and they were really good to deal with as well. Having that 20 year warranty doesn't hurt either biggrin.gif. I still think I have a few years left on them. But again, I hope you are up to 100% soon.

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post #336 of 356 Old 08-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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Craig. Since my new room presents some issues in terms of symmetrical placement of subs (doors in the wrong places) I was wondering if u documented the methodology u used to come up with the position of your 3 "random" positioned subs!

R 8:28


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post #337 of 356 Old 08-13-2013, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chuck,

I documented the "final" measurements here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500#post_19446901

I also described a lot of the decision making, and the logic I used, in that post and a few subsequent posts. However, the "methodology" involved dozens of FR measurements of the subs in different locations and in different combinations. In an "asymmetrical" arrangement, there is really no substitute for that. smile.gif

Craig

PS. I'm concerned for your OCD mental health in an asymmetrical room. biggrin.gif

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post #338 of 356 Old 08-22-2013, 06:51 AM
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PS. I'm concerned for your OCD mental health in an asymmetrical room. biggrin.gif


So am I. Actually the room is symmetrical but door placement removes the ability to place my subs in a symmetrical location. I'm starting to tear up thinking about it. I will read your thread to see if I can reduce the number of combinations and permutations that I will need to explore.

R 8:28


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post #339 of 356 Old 08-26-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Excellent Customer Service from Emotiva!!!! I have owned an RPA-1 since 2007. It recently developed a problem where it would spontaneously shut off. You could turn it back on again, but then it would shut off spontaneously again a little while later. I called Emotiva and they thought it was a relay in the power switch. Since it was out of warranty, I asked for an estimate, but they were hesitant to provide one without seeing the amp ...'Two days later and no estimate... the amp shows up at my door. I open the box and here's the service ticket: "No Power. Replace power switch relay and front power button. N/C". So not only did they fix it for free, they paid return shipping. I love this little amp. I don't think I'll ever part with it. And Emotiva's CS makes it a whole lot easier to love. Thanks Emotiva!

Thanks Craig. Great story. I'm glad to give my business to a company that's operating at such a high level on product quality and customer service. 👍

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post #340 of 356 Old 01-20-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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1st post updated with new equipment, recently added.

Lombardi said it:
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post #341 of 356 Old 01-20-2014, 03:20 PM
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What's your thoughts of the Integra vs the Marantz?

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post #342 of 356 Old 01-20-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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What's your thoughts of the Integra vs the Marantz?
I know most people who've switched preferred the SQ of the Marantz. Personally, I'm not hearing it. Don't get me wrong, the Marantz sounds GREAT, but so did the Integra 80.2. Audyssey XT32 in both is, IMO, the final arbiter of the SQ. In some ways I prefer the Integra. The menus are easier to navigate in the Integra. Also, the Integra was THX certified and had the THX processing.

IMO, the Integra is the better value.

Craig

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post #343 of 356 Old 01-21-2014, 04:21 PM
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Myself and a few other AVS guys were lucky enough to get a demo in Craig's room this last weekend. My good friend Jonathon (goes by Archaea) and I had flown out to the Philly area for a speaker GTG and were able to setup a time on Sunday to come over to Craig's house along with some other AVS friends - Mike (ironhead1230) and Ben (rush2049) and also Mark Seaton was able to make it (he was showing off his awesome Catalyst 12 speakers at the speaker GTG).

As soon as we met Craig I knew it was going to be a nice time. Very nice guy, friendly and very humble. smile.gif

His room sounded great without anything playing - I could tell right away it was treated very well. It wasn't too dead either, just right IMO.

So, he starts off playing a blu-ray concert of some classical music. Unreal!! My immediate impression was that the image on the screen was the clearest I have ever seen. The movement of the musicians looked so real and the blacks! Wow, the blacks! Beautiful contrasts. Now, full disclosure, I'm not really a videophile guy, I'm much more into audio BUT I have been in a LOT of HT rooms and I've never seen a picture so life like. Wow!

Now, on to the sound. The concert blu-ray sounded great (understatement) but I hadn't heard that before so I couldn't really compare to past experiences. Next we watched some movie clips starting with King Kong. I noticed he had the volume set to 0 so I was expecting it to be VERY loud. It was not. I've heard movie clips at and above reference many times and I can never take that volume for very long. I have VERY sensitive speakers capable of incredible dynamics in my room but still going to reference is not something I do very often because it sounds so loud. In Craig's room reference sounded perfect for King Kong. Now, later we watched scenes from Terminator Salvation at -3 and this is a much louder movie IMO but still -3 in Craig's room reminded me of more like -10 in my own.

The surround effect was equal to the best I've ever heard (Randy Bessinger's room here in Kansas City, he has Trinnov) and the dialogue crystal clear and very life like.

Now about the bass.... I have a bit of an addiction to bass. I'm currently in therapy tongue.gif for the condition but it's not going away any time soon. Did I miss the crazy bass that I have in my room during the movie demo's? Well, yes and no. Having the bass more level matched had some benefits that's for sure. It made the movie clips seem more realistic and I got lost in the movies more than I do with boosted low bass in my own room. I really liked that!

Now on to music. I listen to music A LOT in my room. I love sitting in the sweet spot and listening to stereo music and enjoying the soundstage from that spot and have spent a lot of time tweaking the exact settings of my speakers, postition of my main LP, toe in of the speakers, treatments on the walls for first reflections of each speaker as well as the ceiling half way between me and my mains, etc not to mention the constant upgrades in speakers for the past 3 years or so - oh yeah, and also eqing the subs to have just the right frequency curve that I like. I am now at the point where I like how music sounds in my room better than any room I've been in. I am not saying that I have the best speakers or my room has the best treatments or anything like that, it's just that I am used to the sound so it's what I prefer to anything I've heard - until now.

2 channel music in Craig's room is now my all time favorite. We did hear some songs I've familiar with so I can say that for sure. Why do I like it better? Here is where I fall short. I'm terrible at describing what I like about one setup over another.... all I know is the feeling I get while listening to music on a system and Craig's system does it for me.

My one regret is not bringing some heavier music over to sample. I do listen to all kinds of music now that I have some great speakers but I am a metal-head though and through. Most of it isn't recorded well, but a lot is. I would have loved to have heard any heavy bands like Metallica, Opeth, Dream Theater, Tool, Slayer, Black Sabbath etc. just to see how it compared to my room but I didn't have any of that with me.

What a cool afternoon though, Mark Seaton was spewing out advice left and right both in Craig's room and on our drive back to the airport - I think I can speak for Craig that it was so cool to have him along for the demo!

Later in the day Craig had a friend of his come over (Dennis -DMark1 - also a very nice guy!) and then we went back to his place to get a demo of his Legacy Whispers. That was great too! The room wasn't as well treated but I did love a lot of the music I heard from the Whispers. I would say that the singer was more defined in the soundstage with the Whispers than I have ever experienced. It's hard to explain what I mean. The voice was more distinct from the other instruments. Another thing I noticed was that the singer was higher up than I have heard before. I'm used to the singer being right in the center right in front of me. With the Whispers it seemed the singer was not only right in front of me but also higher up. I'm not sure if I preferred this or not, but if you think about it that's pretty cool because if the singer was in the room they would be standing, and it sounded like that's where the voice was. Now, maybe I'm nuts because I asked Jonathan if he noticed this and he did not so maybe it was just me.

I also liked the bass from the Whispers. They were run full range and no subs and the bass was very good. From what I have learned about bass frequencies and the many measurements I have taken in my own room I know that the chances of the frequency response being smooth at our LP was very low, but the bass still sounded great IMO.

I did get to hear Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and NIB and thought it sounded fantastic. I like more bass (shocker:D) but I could have listened all day. I prefer how Sabbath sounds in my room, but not by much and i was loving it! I did think that Journey sounded thin but I blame this on Audyssey - I think we had Audyssey on for Don't Stop Believing (hmmm were we listening to the Whispers at that point or the other Legacy speakers?)

Oh yeah, the Submersives in both rooms sounded fantastic. I've owned dual Submersives and heard a ton of subs and IMO it's the best sounding sub you can buy.

One more thing. My ears should have been pretty fried from all the music I heard the day before at the all day GTG and then the day before that movie and music at another AVS friends house in DC. However, I had no fatigue at all listening to either system which says a lot IMO.

Jonathan will come along and post a much better/detailed review of both rooms than mine (including videos I believe), he's much better at that than I am, but I wanted to at least put in my 2 cents.

Thanks again Craig and Dennis!!
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post #344 of 356 Old 01-21-2014, 05:42 PM
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I posted this before in this thread but I really wanted to bring it to the front again. Given that a few guys went over to Craig's, I wanted to just re-post my thoughts. I hope that's O.K
I can only try.

When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn tongue.gif. My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down. If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.

Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard. Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results. But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.

Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup. In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different. The Triads are more "direct" and crisp as compared to my Focal speakers. At least, that's the best way I can explain it. I am not as good at describing "mid range" sound and the like. I think the fact that my speakers were designed ported and full range make them sound much different than Craig's speakers which were not meant to be full range and are sealed. Craig's speakers have more snap to them then mine. Not that mine are soft in the mid range. I think vocals and any instruments that are located in that area of sound are really well represented by my speakers. But Craig's speakers being able to play louder and not as low, present the mid range in a different way.

Even in Craig's large room, when we were only listening to the other speakers and not the center, the sound stage was quite good. That is one area where I think there is not much difference in our systems. I have fooled myself many times into thinking the center was on when it was not. Even though Craig's room is much bigger, and his mains are further apart, he too can get a very nice center phantom effect. I know this is long but I still have a bit more to say redface.gif. Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick. He is on a concrete floor so the SubMersive are on a concrete floor but his chairs and Crowson are on a riser that he built. Because he has an older amp, I think he can crank his Butt Kicker amp a little higher then I can so the tactile effect is "more" than what I get. I still get it and enjoy it, but I am afraid to put it much above 3 on the amp for fear of burning the Crowson out again. I have it right below 3 and I do get a nice sensation at that level. I may try to put it right at three because truthfully, my amp is more sensitive then his and even the slightest movement on the level makes an impact. So as far as bass goes, I am closer with the Crowson in my room but really, watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here." I think that's about it.

I just wanted to add again that Craig is a great guy. I will try and make this part quick. I first somehow contacted Craig about room treatments. We started to talk and he asked if I have ever measured my room. I said no. He said he would be willing to come down and do it for me. WHAT???? Here is a guy, I did not even know yet, and he was willing to come down and measure my room. From that point on we became friends. I can't tell you how many times Craig and Dennis have come down to help me out with my system. If it's a calibration(way more then once) or installing new gear, Craig and Dennis have been willing to help me out. For someone who can't work on their own system, I take that very seriously.

But I will just end on this note. I have never had a total HT experience anyplace else like I have had when I go to Craig's house. That's not me sucking up. That's the the truth. Anyway, I think I have said enough smile.gif.

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post #345 of 356 Old 01-21-2014, 08:05 PM
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I have not been fortunate enough to hear Craig's system but I have no doubt it is exceptional. Here is what I do know: Being around Craig or reading his thread or emailing him or talking to him can cause you to spend money. Near as I can calculate, based upon his visits some number of years ago, and subsequent emails and phone calls, I have probably spent $15,000: 4 new Seaton Sparks ($6000) since he had sold me 4 surround speaker mounts (which are now for sale) and I needed to purchase more speakers so that I could use them all biggrin.gif ; a new AT screen ($1100) so I could put my center channel behind it (since that is what he did) PLUS the building of a screen wall to support the behind the screen center channel plus electrical and drywall and .... ($2000); and since I needed a new screen I was also forced (OK, maybe that is too strong of a word) to get a new masking system ($4600); plus a few other odds and ends.

Warning: If you visited Craig this past weekend, have your wife hide your checkbook and your credit cards.

You have been warned !!!

R 8:28


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post #346 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Myself and a few other AVS guys were lucky enough to get a demo in Craig's room this last weekend. My good friend Jonathon (goes by Archaea) and I had flown out to the Philly area for a speaker GTG and were able to setup a time on Sunday to come over to Craig's house along with some other AVS friends - Mike (ironhead1230) and Ben (rush2049) and also Mark Seaton was able to make it (he was showing off his awesome Catalyst 12 speakers at the speaker GTG).

As soon as we met Craig I knew it was going to be a nice time. Very nice guy, friendly and very humble. smile.gif

His room sounded great without anything playing - I could tell right away it was treated very well. It wasn't too dead either, just right IMO.

So, he starts off playing a blu-ray concert of some classical music. Unreal!! My immediate impression was that the image on the screen was the clearest I have ever seen. The movement of the musicians looked so real and the blacks! Wow, the blacks! Beautiful contrasts. Now, full disclosure, I'm not really a videophile guy, I'm much more into audio BUT I have been in a LOT of HT rooms and I've never seen a picture so life like. Wow!

Now, on to the sound. The concert blu-ray sounded great (understatement) but I hadn't heard that before so I couldn't really compare to past experiences. Next we watched some movie clips starting with King Kong. I noticed he had the volume set to 0 so I was expecting it to be VERY loud. It was not. I've heard movie clips at and above reference many times and I can never take that volume for very long. I have VERY sensitive speakers capable of incredible dynamics in my room but still going to reference is not something I do very often because it sounds so loud. In Craig's room reference sounded perfect for King Kong. Now, later we watched scenes from Terminator Salvation at -3 and this is a much louder movie IMO but still -3 in Craig's room reminded me of more like -10 in my own.

The surround effect was equal to the best I've ever heard (Randy Bessinger's room here in Kansas City, he has Trinnov) and the dialogue crystal clear and very life like.

Now about the bass.... I have a bit of an addiction to bass. I'm currently in therapy tongue.gif for the condition but it's not going away any time soon. Did I miss the crazy bass that I have in my room during the movie demo's? Well, yes and no. Having the bass more level matched had some benefits that's for sure. It made the movie clips seem more realistic and I got lost in the movies more than I do with boosted low bass in my own room. I really liked that!

Now on to music. I listen to music A LOT in my room. I love sitting in the sweet spot and listening to stereo music and enjoying the soundstage from that spot and have spent a lot of time tweaking the exact settings of my speakers, postition of my main LP, toe in of the speakers, treatments on the walls for first reflections of each speaker as well as the ceiling half way between me and my mains, etc not to mention the constant upgrades in speakers for the past 3 years or so - oh yeah, and also eqing the subs to have just the right frequency curve that I like. I am now at the point where I like how music sounds in my room better than any room I've been in. I am not saying that I have the best speakers or my room has the best treatments or anything like that, it's just that I am used to the sound so it's what I prefer to anything I've heard - until now.

2 channel music in Craig's room is now my all time favorite. We did hear some songs I've familiar with so I can say that for sure. Why do I like it better? Here is where I fall short. I'm terrible at describing what I like about one setup over another.... all I know is the feeling I get while listening to music on a system and Craig's system does it for me.

My one regret is not bringing some heavier music over to sample. I do listen to all kinds of music now that I have some great speakers but I am a metal-head though and through. Most of it isn't recorded well, but a lot is. I would have loved to have heard any heavy bands like Metallica, Opeth, Dream Theater, Tool, Slayer, Black Sabbath etc. just to see how it compared to my room but I didn't have any of that with me.

What a cool afternoon though, Mark Seaton was spewing out advice left and right both in Craig's room and on our drive back to the airport - I think I can speak for Craig that it was so cool to have him along for the demo!

Later in the day Craig had a friend of his come over (Dennis -DMark1 - also a very nice guy!) and then we went back to his place to get a demo of his Legacy Whispers. That was great too! The room wasn't as well treated but I did love a lot of the music I heard from the Whispers. I would say that the singer was more defined in the soundstage with the Whispers than I have ever experienced. It's hard to explain what I mean. The voice was more distinct from the other instruments. Another thing I noticed was that the singer was higher up than I have heard before. I'm used to the singer being right in the center right in front of me. With the Whispers it seemed the singer was not only right in front of me but also higher up. I'm not sure if I preferred this or not, but if you think about it that's pretty cool because if the singer was in the room they would be standing, and it sounded like that's where the voice was. Now, maybe I'm nuts because I asked Jonathan if he noticed this and he did not so maybe it was just me.

I also liked the bass from the Whispers. They were run full range and no subs and the bass was very good. From what I have learned about bass frequencies and the many measurements I have taken in my own room I know that the chances of the frequency response being smooth at our LP was very low, but the bass still sounded great IMO.

I did get to hear Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and NIB and thought it sounded fantastic. I like more bass (shocker:D) but I could have listened all day. I prefer how Sabbath sounds in my room, but not by much and i was loving it! I did think that Journey sounded thin but I blame this on Audyssey - I think we had Audyssey on for Don't Stop Believing (hmmm were we listening to the Whispers at that point or the other Legacy speakers?)

Oh yeah, the Submersives in both rooms sounded fantastic. I've owned dual Submersives and heard a ton of subs and IMO it's the best sounding sub you can buy.

One more thing. My ears should have been pretty fried from all the music I heard the day before at the all day GTG and then the day before that movie and music at another AVS friends house in DC. However, I had no fatigue at all listening to either system which says a lot IMO.

Jonathan will come along and post a much better/detailed review of both rooms than mine (including videos I believe), he's much better at that than I am, but I wanted to at least put in my 2 cents.

Thanks again Craig and Dennis!!

Hi Sheldon,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough and thoughtful review of Dennis' and my systems. I can't tell you how much it means when someone with the same passion for our hobby recognizes and appreciates the work it takes to get a system to this level. I've been at this since 1986, when I installed my first "theater" in my basement. (Sam Runco trademarked the term "home theater" in 1990, but I've had one longer than that! smile.gif ) My first theater consisted of a 50" rear projection Pioneer TV, (which was a HUGE TV in it's day), a pair of Klipsch Forte speakers and a Pioneer receiver. I had both a Super VHS and a Sony BetaMax. eek.gif I even had "room treatments" in that first theater. The front and side wall were covered with rockwool and fabric in an LEDE arrangement. Over the ensuing quarter century plus, it has evolved to the theater you saw and heard on Sunday. It's been a long journey, with lots of iterations and combinations of equipment.

Adding the Triad Platinums was the best upgrade I've ever made, (well, that and the Submersives.) The first time I heard them, I played that "Money For Nothing" SACD track by Dire Straits. After that opening crescendo, I had goosebumps, and I knew immediately I was buying them. I don't know about you, but I had goosebumps again when we played it on Sunday.

One thing we forgot to do on Sunday was that tornado scene from Oz, The Great And Powerful. We talked about it but never got around to playing it. That scene has a prolonged run of 25 - 40 Hz that will scramble your innards with the Earthquake shakers:



It's a fun ride and the Earthquake shakers shake significantly harder than the Crowsons. There are other things they don't do as well, as we discussed, but on this scene and others, they are much more powerful. Since you now have a Crowson, it would have been interesting to get your thoughts on them.

I'm sorry I didn't have any of the heavy metal music you enjoy. Another member, DreamWarrior, visited me a few weeks ago and he is into that same type of music. He brought some along, although TBH, I can't remember any of the names of the bands or the songs. He could probably tell you. Anyway, he felt that the Triads didn't quite have the maximum output he was looking for, or at least I wasn't willing to go as loud as he wanted. We actually had my amp go into "thermal protection" mode so we were hitting the limits of my system. IDK if the speakers had more left, but my 650 watt @ 4 Ohm amp was done. It eventually cooled down and is fine, and I might be able to get more out of it with a cooling fan. I may do that eventually. DreamWarrior ended up buying the Seaton Catalysts that were sold at the GTG. I expect he found the speakers he was looking for. The Seatons will likely have more output than the Triad Platinums. The JTR's as well would likely have higher ultimate limits than the Triads.

It was great to have Mark Seaton here. I learn something ever time I talk to him.

Anyway, it was a fun day. Maybe I'll get to KC sometime and you can give me a listen to the JTR's and your incredible subs. smile.gif

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #347 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

I posted this before in this thread but I really wanted to bring it to the front again. Given that a few guys went over to Craig's, I wanted to just re-post my thoughts. I hope that's O.K
I can only try.

When I use certain words, please do not think that I am using them in a disparaging way. I will start with my own system. My speakers are maybe 91db sensitive and really are full range in my room. I know I can listen with the sub on(for music), but more often then not, I just listen to music in bypass mode. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. I ocasionally listen in one of the multi-channel modes of the Integra but I guess I am just stubborn tongue.gif. My system, IMHO, presents the music in a more "calm" way then compared to Craig's Triads. Forget about the dynamics, in which there is no comparison between the two, Craig "wins" that one hands down. If you look back in my thread at my measurements, you will find that they are very good. I think they even surprised Craig, The RT time really was a shock to him I think. I am right on the money with the RT measurement so the decay is probably as good as I can get in this room. That gives the entire sound, highs to bass an incredible "presence" and start stop feeling. The music and movie effects just start and stop on a dime. At least I think they do.

Now, I have Dire Straits Brothers in arms as a remastered CD and Craig has it as a SACD so it is not a true comparison. I really like the way this CD sounds on my system. I can get a great sound stage and the instruments all sound real and correct. I really can't hear anything wrong with the way it plays the CD. In bypass mode or regular stereo mode. I can say that another CD I have, TOOL 10,000 days, often fools me into thinking my surrounds are on even when I know I am listening in bypass mode. That's how good of an image I can get. Now, in Craig's system, it is a whole different kettle of fish. His system has a clarity that I have rarely heard on any system, even my own. That Brothers in Arms SACD was just magnificent on his system. Since I think it was a MC SACD, the sound filling the room was remarkable. The Vocals coming from that center were some of the best and cleanest I have ever heard. Here is an interesting tidbit that I did not mention before. When we first started, Craig did not realize that something was amiss with one of his amps. It turns out we were first only listening to the silver wide speakers he had and no center. I have to say, with music, that sounded pretty good. But then when he realized the problem and fixed it, and we were running the Plats, well, I think you can guess the results. But again, if I were to try and compare my system to his, it is still hard to do. I really like the sonic signature of my speakers. If we move to movies, you can again hear the difference.

Craig's speakers just keep on going louder with no problem at all. That center is simply fantastic. Spoken words are just so damn clean and clear. Now in my room, with movies, I still like how my speakers sound and I think Craig would also agree that they sound very good. But mine would probably give up the ghost at really really high levels. Lucky for me, my room is small enough that my Focal's get plenty loud before I can hear any breakup. In Craig's room, having 9 speakers around the room just puts you in the middle of the music or movie. It is quite the experience. Now don't get me wrong, I still really like my system and I love the way it sounds. But Craig's system is just that much above mine as putting you in the action. But, for movies, I can get close to that as well I think in my small room. They obviously sound different. The Triads are more "direct" and crisp as compared to my Focal speakers. At least, that's the best way I can explain it. I am not as good at describing "mid range" sound and the like. I think the fact that my speakers were designed ported and full range make them sound much different than Craig's speakers which were not meant to be full range and are sealed. Craig's speakers have more snap to them then mine. Not that mine are soft in the mid range. I think vocals and any instruments that are located in that area of sound are really well represented by my speakers. But Craig's speakers being able to play louder and not as low, present the mid range in a different way.

Even in Craig's large room, when we were only listening to the other speakers and not the center, the sound stage was quite good. That is one area where I think there is not much difference in our systems. I have fooled myself many times into thinking the center was on when it was not. Even though Craig's room is much bigger, and his mains are further apart, he too can get a very nice center phantom effect. I know this is long but I still have a bit more to say redface.gif. Regarding bass. In my room, the bass is first rate, IMHO. Craig did a fantastic job calibrating the sub. It just fills the room. Adding the Crowson was the icing on the cake. Now it is even a better, more fun experience for me. Craig's bass system is just plain sick. He is on a concrete floor so the SubMersive are on a concrete floor but his chairs and Crowson are on a riser that he built. Because he has an older amp, I think he can crank his Butt Kicker amp a little higher then I can so the tactile effect is "more" than what I get. I still get it and enjoy it, but I am afraid to put it much above 3 on the amp for fear of burning the Crowson out again. I have it right below 3 and I do get a nice sensation at that level. I may try to put it right at three because truthfully, my amp is more sensitive then his and even the slightest movement on the level makes an impact. So as far as bass goes, I am closer with the Crowson in my room but really, watching Avatar had me saying "Anybody who has an issue with the bass in this movie needs to watch it here." I think that's about it.

I just wanted to add again that Craig is a great guy. I will try and make this part quick. I first somehow contacted Craig about room treatments. We started to talk and he asked if I have ever measured my room. I said no. He said he would be willing to come down and do it for me. WHAT???? Here is a guy, I did not even know yet, and he was willing to come down and measure my room. From that point on we became friends. I can't tell you how many times Craig and Dennis have come down to help me out with my system. If it's a calibration(way more then once) or installing new gear, Craig and Dennis have been willing to help me out. For someone who can't work on their own system, I take that very seriously.

But I will just end on this note. I have never had a total HT experience anyplace else like I have had when I go to Craig's house. That's not me sucking up. That's the the truth. Anyway, I think I have said enough smile.gif.

Thanks for re-posting this Mike. I remember that day. We had fun! As I said to Sheldon, that Dire Straits SACD is incredible. Your comments reconfirm this again.

We've had some good times listening to your system also. I really like your system, and you've done a great job integrating it into your room. Your acoustic treatments have turned what could be an acoustic nightmare into a little slice of heaven. Keep on enjoying that great system. smile.gif

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #348 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have not been fortunate enough to hear Craig's system but I have no doubt it is exceptional. Here is what I do know: Being around Craig or reading his thread or emailing him or talking to him can cause you to spend money. Near as I can calculate, based upon his visits some number of years ago, and subsequent emails and phone calls, I have probably spent $15,000: 4 new Seaton Sparks ($6000) since he had sold me 4 surround speaker mounts (which are now for sale) and I needed to purchase more speakers so that I could use them all biggrin.gif ; a new AT screen ($1100) so I could put my center channel behind it (since that is what he did) PLUS the building of a screen wall to support the behind the screen center channel plus electrical and drywall and .... ($2000); and since I needed a new screen I was also forced (OK, maybe that is too strong of a word) to get a new masking system ($4600); plus a few other odds and ends.

Warning: If you visited Craig this past weekend, have your wife hide your checkbook and your credit cards.

You have been warned !!!

I'm not comin' back to your theater. That would probably cost me $14,000 for a new projector. Yeah, yeah, yeah, then you could say we're even, but I'm perfectly happy with my current projector. tongue.gif I've had it calibrated by a guy who does incredible work, (Ryan, if you're reading this THANKS AGAIN!)

I am thinking about one of those new Seymour AV screens with the built-in masking, so I'll blame that on YOU! Dennis, just received his, and we need to install it this weekend, so I'll check that out and make a decision.

In your new room, since it's upstairs on a suspended floor, do you get a lot of tactile feedback from the floor?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
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post #349 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

but I'm perfectly happy with my current projector. tongue.gif

I was as well until I saw the 1000 and then Sony announced the 600. So, your idea of not seeing what could be is incredibly wise.
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I am thinking about one of those new Seymour AV screens with the built-in masking, so I'll blame that on YOU! Dennis, just received his, and we need to install it this weekend, so I'll check that out and make a decision.
Is that the screen that uses magnetically held masking panels?

Once I switched out the two piece top and bottom frame pieces to a single piece for my Seyour screen, the frame went together quickly and hung perfectly. Great product so thanks for the recommendation .... plus it's a WHOLE lot cheaper than the Stewart microperf screen of the same size.
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In your new room, since it's upstairs on a suspended floor, do you get a lot of tactile feedback from the floor?

With the one completed movie and multiple movie clips I have watched, yes I do get tactile feedback!! It is very difficult to get accustomed to as I have never experienced it before. I'm not sure I'll ever get completely used to it though there is nothing I can do to eliminate it. And I can't help but have a couple of brain cells worrying about the structural integrity of the floor given that amount of air the system can move.

I still don't have the sound I had in my other room but am getting closer. With the new OmniMic 5.1 disk, I have been diddling with sub distance(s) to get the smoothest response for all speakers (still haven't figured out the best way to deal with all four surrounds) . While the LR response does not look quite as good as they would if I only concentrated on them, the overall sound is really much better. I had always measured the subs along with either the left or right speaker for adjusting the sub distance but it is really much more productive to measure the center channel along with the sub. In fact, I have adopted your procedure of adjusting each sub distance individually to get the best overall response.

I loaned the 5.1 OmniMic disk to a friend and he did the procedure above and got great results.

Craig[/quote]

R 8:28


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post #350 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Thanks for re-posting this Mike. I remember that day. We had fun! As I said to Sheldon, that Dire Straits SACD is incredible. Your comments reconfirm this again.

We've had some good times listening to your system also. I really like your system, and you've done a great job integrating it into your room. Your acoustic treatments have turned what could be an acoustic nightmare into a little slice of heaven. Keep on enjoying that great system. smile.gif

Craig
No problem Craig. Those were my first thoughts and they still hold true today. Trust me, it was an acoustic nightmare. I still owe Mark S the initial credit for me trying to make "the room" better. He said he was" please with the results we got in Mike's small, untreated room." He also said my wall unit was killing my audio. After that, and after I got rid of the wall unit, is when I contacted you. The room is the way it is because of you and Dennis. Remember when my racks were together? It was you guys who recommended we separate them. I thought it would be to much work, but you guys did it anyway. And it was Dennis I think who said we should try moving the SubMersive out of the corner. That also made a huge difference.

Going over to your place has always been great. Seeing your system has always made me try and get the most out of my system. The Crowson,. That's on you. After I experienced that I had to have it even with my small room and single chair. I am so glad I did that. But at some point I would like to see what the Earthquake system is like. I can agree that The Great and Powerful Oz really makes the Crowson move. Along with a whole bunch of other movies. So again, you cost me money as well tongue.gif. Anyway, I know you just about reached the apex. I guess the scree idea would be the last thing.

Thanks again for the nice words about my system. It wouldn't be this good without your guidance. I just wish it were bigger so I could fit more then just 1 or 2 other people. Oh well. I do enjoy it and I will continue to.

It ain't easy being green.

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Craig, what was the name of that Blu-ray you played first that had the symphony playing? That was incredible!


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post #352 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Craig, what was the name of that Blu-ray you played first that had the symphony playing? That was incredible!
I put a post in the Submersive thread with the info on that disc: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/8940#post_24241082 That disc is amazing. Dennis, who is a classical percussionist, turned me on to that one.

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post #353 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that the screen that uses magnetically held masking panels?
No, it's the electric drop down screen with electric drop down masking panels. You can do it 2 ways... 1. a 16x9 screen with a single drop down panel from the top for 2.35:1, (you use the projector to "scroll" the bottom black bar off the bottom of the screen), or, 2. a 2.35:1 screen with two masking panels dropping down on either side for 16x9. http://www.seymourav.com/masking.asp (go all the way to the bottom of the page.)
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Once I switched out the two piece top and bottom frame pieces to a single piece for my Seyour screen, the frame went together quickly and hung perfectly. Great product so thanks for the recommendation .... plus it's a WHOLE lot cheaper than the Stewart microperf screen of the same size.
The Stewart needs extra EQ for the screen; the Seymour does not. Did you get to talk to Chris Seymour? He's a very nice guy and very helpful.
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With the one completed movie and multiple movie clips I have watched, yes I do get tactile feedback!! It is very difficult to get accustomed to as I have never experienced it before. I'm not sure I'll ever get completely used to it though there is nothing I can do to eliminate it. And I can't help but have a couple of brain cells worrying about the structural integrity of the floor given that amount of air the system can move.
The structural integrity shouldn't be a huge problem. My friend, pepar, has had incredible tactile response in his 2nd floor theater for years and his house is still standing. smile.gif Enjoy the effect and don't worry about it. smile.gif
Quote:
I still don't have the sound I had in my other room but am getting closer. With the new OmniMic 5.1 disk, I have been diddling with sub distance(s) to get the smoothest response for all speakers (still haven't figured out the best way to deal with all four surrounds) . While the LR response does not look quite as good as they would if I only concentrated on them, the overall sound is really much better. I had always measured the subs along with either the left or right speaker for adjusting the sub distance but it is really much more productive to measure the center channel along with the sub. In fact, I have adopted your procedure of adjusting each sub distance individually to get the best overall response.

I loaned the 5.1 OmniMic disk to a friend and he did the procedure above and got great results.
Yeah, I discussed that trick using the CC with Mark Seaton again this weekend. He reconfirmed that it really works. You need to use PLIIx Movie, (or Cinema) mode. PLIIx Music won't work, but you probably knew that.

Craig

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post #354 of 356 Old 01-22-2014, 08:01 PM
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No, it's the electric drop down screen with electric drop down masking panels. You can do it 2 ways... 1. a 16x9 screen with a single drop down panel from the top for 2.35:1, (you use the projector to "scroll" the bottom black bar off the bottom of the screen), or, 2. a 2.35:1 screen with two masking panels dropping down on either side for 16x9. http://www.seymourav.com/masking.asp (go all the way to the bottom of the page.)
The Stewart needs extra EQ for the screen; the Seymour does not. Did you get to talk to Chris Seymour? He's a very nice guy and very helpful.
The structural integrity shouldn't be a huge problem. My friend, pepar, has had incredible tactile response in his 2nd floor theater for years and his house is still standing. smile.gif Enjoy the effect and don't worry about it. smile.gif
Yeah, I discussed that trick using the CC with Mark Seaton again this weekend. He reconfirmed that it really works. You need to use PLIIx Movie, (or Cinema) mode. PLIIx Music won't work, but you probably knew that.

Craig

The Carada Masking system I use is like your number 2 option (Constant Image Height). I have a friend who now owns my JVC and he was using CIW with masking panels that come up from the bottom and down from the top (Stewart). With the new projector, he is moving to a larger screen (52 x 122) and is acquiring the same Panamorph that I think you use and will run all his viewing (mostly movies) through it. No masking

Yes I did talk to Chris and he made a very fair exchange from the two piece top/bottom to the single piece. He is a nice guy. The owner of Carada is also an incredibly nice and very helpful guy. The patience of Job.

I would like to clarify my understanding the use of PLIIx Movie. With this new disk, it will send signals to the 5.1 channels (individually as I select the channel) so I am assuming the use of PLIIx will send the side channel surround signal to the rear surrounds? (I would imagine I will have to unplug the side surrounds to be able to measure the rears?) Is this correct?

R 8:28


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post #355 of 356 Old 01-23-2014, 08:32 AM
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Given all of the huge accolades you received from those that recently visited your home, I am definitely going to come visit. First thing is to get my system as good as it can be. Something is apparently not right with my right speaker (plots sent to Mark) so I will move it to the center channel and then re-calibrate the room. Once I am very accustomed to the sound, I will contact you for some available time to come visit.

If I had to speculate now, a lot of the differences I am hearing in this room versus the last is that this room is a good bit more damped. For two channel, it is less obvious. While I have exchanged hardwood floors (last room) up front with carpet in this room, my first reflection point is all diffusive versus diffusive and absorptive in my last room.

Congrats on the accolades. I have no doubt they are well deserved.

R 8:28


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audioguy is offline  
post #356 of 356 Old 01-23-2014, 09:35 AM
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Craig, after reading all the kudos being given to you and your room, I felt the urge to search your thread until I found my impressions after my visit to your place last year.  

 

Here are my impressions from February 2013. 

 

I may have to drop you a line to discuss possibly replicating some of your treatment methods in the new room.  How did you come up with your treatment design? As a fellow Plat owner, I know what my theater experience can potentially be.  Now I just have to get there. 


The Build:
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