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post #361 of 377 Old 10-10-2014, 10:04 AM
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Hey Craig, price not withstanding, would you have to give up your sides and heights simply because the more affordable preamps don't have enough speaker outputs? In theory, you could do both if you were willing to spend the money right? I mean Atmos and your wide/height setup are not mutually exclusive are they? You could keep your 9 speaker setup as is and just add the four if you wanted to couldn't your? Or would the Atmos layout requirements make you move those to other spots.


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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Hi Mike,

TBH, I haven't really looked that closely at all the options for Atmos. Nor have I looked at all the different processors and receivers. At this point, I know I would have to sacrifice at least my Wides to run Atmos, (unless I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a processor that will likely be obsolete in short order.) Sacrificing Wides just to add Overheads doesn't seem like a significant upgrade to me, and it certainly doesn't justify the huge investment I would need to make. In addition, I think there are still some issues with the HDMI spec and HDCP, (although admittedly I am not fully informed of all those details.)

At this point, IMO, it's not a mature enough technology, (yet), to warrant an investment, at least not from me. I will sit out the first round and wait to see how much better the 2nd generation processors are. In addition, I would like to see what DTS comes up with. For now, I'm quite content with 9.3 and Wides using DTS NeoX in my Marantz 8801.

How about you? Are you considering Atmos? It would probably be difficult to implement in your room with your LP against the back wall and your surrounds mounted up high on the side walls. But... where there's a will...

Craig

Currently, you can either do 7.x.4 or 9.x.2 with atmos receivers released thus far. So only 2 ceiling speakers with a 9 channel step. The most effective is with 4 ceiling speakers get the panning effect of any sound overhead.


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post #362 of 377 Old 10-10-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Currently, you can either do 7.x.4 or 9.x.2 with atmos receivers released thus far. So only 2 ceiling speakers with a 9 channel step. The most effective is with 4 ceiling speakers get the panning effect of any sound overhead.


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I guess I should have also mentioned... I want to continue to use Audyssey XT32.

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post #363 of 377 Old 10-10-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Hi Mike,

TBH, I haven't really looked that closely at all the options for Atmos. Nor have I looked at all the different processors and receivers. At this point, I know I would have to sacrifice at least my Wides to run Atmos, (unless I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a processor that will likely be obsolete in short order.) Sacrificing Wides just to add Overheads doesn't seem like a significant upgrade to me, and it certainly doesn't justify the huge investment I would need to make. In addition, I think there are still some issues with the HDMI spec and HDCP, (although admittedly I am not fully informed of all those details.)

At this point, IMO, it's not a mature enough technology, (yet), to warrant an investment, at least not from me. I will sit out the first round and wait to see how much better the 2nd generation processors are. In addition, I would like to see what DTS comes up with. For now, I'm quite content with 9.3 and Wides using DTS NeoX in my Marantz 8801.

How about you? Are you considering Atmos? It would probably be difficult to implement in your room with your LP against the back wall and your surrounds mounted up high on the side walls. But... where there's a will...

Craig
Got you on all that. I have never heard it so I can't say how fantastic it is or what the differences would be with speakers over your head instead of wides and heights like you have. As for me, I don't think it would happen for a number of reasons. One, is that it seems like for a setup that I have, you need 4 overhead speakers. Right now I have enough space for two amps. Even if I replaced my one 3ch with a 5ch that would only give me 7ch total. That's not enough. I would have to replace both with a 5ch then I could do it with 10ch of amplification. I really don't feel like doing that. The other thing to do would be to replace both my racks with other racks that would allow me to place another amp in addition to the ones I already have. But that would be a major undertaking and I could not do that myself.

Then there is the placement of the speakers over head. They would probably not be in the right spots. I admit that I am not as much as a stickler as you are with regards to knowing listening and viewing angles. But they would not be over head. They would be just outside of my main listening position. So I don't know if that would be an issue.

Another issue is replacing a working preamp with something else. I think you why that would be an issue . Those are just a few things that I can come up with now. The only thing I could see myself doing is trying to set up a 7.1 system. But I don't know where the other two speakers would go. Also, that would require me to get the 5ch and replace my 3ch amp. I think in my room, 7 speakers are probably enough. I would like to get the matching SR1000be speakers and see if I could put them on my back wall but they are A LOT of money. I need to see where they can go and how they would needed to be setup. But keeping what I have and trying to just add two more for a 7.1 setup is probably the easiest. Plus, let's not forget that we are going to try and get a FP system in my room. That will take some skill as well, if you know what I mean. So that's it. Your room is already outstanding and if it's not worth the effort, it's not like you will be slumming it with your current 9.3 setup .

P.S check out post 1057 in my thread regarding a link you wanted me to show you about the Panny and what I think are its limitations.

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post #364 of 377 Old 10-23-2014, 02:31 PM
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Hi Craig John,


Curious...what RTA software, computer, and OS did you use that is shown on post #1 , page #1 ...I'd like to measure my subs FR individually (like you), before and after Audyssey XT32.


Thanks!

AVR: Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Audyssey XT32
BD: Oppo BDP-103 - NAS - LenovoEMC - px2-300d 6TB
HDTV: Panasonic Plasma TC-P50G10
Speakers: Infinity Interlude - IL40 Fronts, IL30 Surrounds, IL36C Center
Subs: Dual JBL - ES250P 12" 400W RMS
Turntable: B&O Beogram 1600 - REW Mic - UMIK-1 USB
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post #365 of 377 Old 10-23-2014, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by randallhill View Post
Hi Craig John,


Curious...what RTA software, computer, and OS did you use that is shown on post #1 , page #1 ...I'd like to measure my subs FR individually (like you), before and after Audyssey XT32.


Thanks!
I use XTZ Room Analyzer. Here is the "official" thread: The "Official" xtz Room Analyzer Thread

The current US distributor for XTZ Room Analyzer is Acoustic Frontiers:
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/X...er-II-Pro.html
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/X...-Standard.html

The graphs posted on Page 1 were done with RA Standard. I have since switched to the Pro version, and greatly prefer it. It works with most any PC running most any version of Windows.

Good luck.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #366 of 377 Old 10-28-2014, 01:21 PM
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Great job on the room. The reviews I've been reading here are beyond excellent. I have yet to read a single criticism, which is rare for forums, but obviously a testament to the total quality of your HT. Extra props for achieving such a high level experience without a ultra high-end price tag - very impressive.

In many ways I've tried to emulate your system, and you have definitely influenced a number of my HT decisions. One of more recent was to rearrange my room and go with a 2.35 screen, so thanks a ton for that one. You've also played a significant role in my HT education. Over the years I've paid especially close attention to the advice you give others, and you're one of the few who's information always seems be on point. So again thank you, and congrats on the nice HT.
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post #367 of 377 Old 10-28-2014, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Great job on the room. The reviews I've been reading here are beyond excellent. I have yet to read a single criticism, which is rare for forums, but obviously a testament to the total quality of your HT. Extra props for achieving such a high level experience without a ultra high-end price tag - very impressive.

In many ways I've tried to emulate your system, and you have definitely influenced a number of my HT decisions. One of more recent was to rearrange my room and go with a 2.35 screen, so thanks a ton for that one. You've also played a significant role in my HT education. Over the years I've paid especially close attention to the advice you give others, and you're one of the few who's information always seems be on point. So again thank you, and congrats on the nice HT.
Wow! I almost don't know what to say... other than... Thank you for the kind words. I'm humbled. Truly.

I just looked at your WYSC thread. Setup For a Small Apartment I really like the evolution of your HT. You did a serious overhaul, with some big improvements, not just in equipment, but in room configuration and layout. You've certainly integrated many of the important principles of proper HT design: proper subwoofer placement optimized with measurements, proper seating placement, proper surround speaker placement, acoustic treatments, etc. I'm sure the new configuration looks and sounds a lot better. If I had some small part in that, I'm certainly happy to have helped.

Thanks for stopping by my thread, and please continue to enjoy your HT.

Craig
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post #368 of 377 Old 01-17-2015, 05:00 PM
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I had an opportunity to visit Craig's room today. He's a great guy; great host and fellow addict!!

His system is EXCELLENT (both audio and video). The Triad Platinum LCR's are a serious HT speaker - but hang in there with the best for music as well. He played some great concert videos (Steely Dan being on top of the list) that, in his room, are just over the top. In addition to the concert/music videos, we played some 2 channel, some movie clips and a few other cuts as well. The Plats have a wonderful midrange, dynamics up the ying yang and do everything you would want a speaker to do - at least for a speaker that cost less than a nice SUV!

I sat immersed in the sweet spot all afternoon and loved every minute of it. Even on those occassions where the volume creeped north of reference, there was never any listener fatigue -just a floating sonic image from floor to ceilng and from behind the listener to behind the speakers. Certainly one of the top 3 or 4 best HT audio experiences I have ever enjoyed (the best costing about 10x what Craig has invested).

The room is appropriatley treated to extract the max out of the system. Really, really well done. I thorougly enjoyed myself. And did I say his system was EXCELLENT !!

PS. And this is the first time I have ever experienced a seat acutator system that actually increased the listening experience instead of taking me out of it.

Great system and thanks for your hospitality.
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post #369 of 377 Old 01-19-2015, 07:49 AM
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Glad you got to experience it first hand Chuck. Yep, Craig's system is probably the best I have heard to date. Only one other system that I experience years ago could come close, but that was many times more expensive when compared to Craig's system, and I am still not convinced it was better.

Yep, his audio and video are just too damn good. It is also because of him that I bought a Crowson for my system. Craig is a great guy and very willing to share his knowledge. That is why my system sounds as good as it does. So again, glad you got to experience it.

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post #370 of 377 Old 01-19-2015, 01:20 PM
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My condolences on Green Bay. Never seen such a thing in my life.

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post #371 of 377 Old 01-20-2015, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I had an opportunity to visit Craig's room today. He's a great guy; great host and fellow addict!!

His system is EXCELLENT (both audio and video). The Triad Platinum LCR's are a serious HT speaker - but hang in there with the best for music as well. He played some great concert videos (Steely Dan being on top of the list) that, in his room, are just over the top. In addition to the concert/music videos, we played some 2 channel, some movie clips and a few other cuts as well. The Plats have a wonderful midrange, dynamics up the ying yang and do everything you would want a speaker to do - at least for a speaker that cost less than a nice SUV!

I sat immersed in the sweet spot all afternoon and loved every minute of it. Even on those occassions where the volume creeped north of reference, there was never any listener fatigue -just a floating sonic image from floor to ceilng and from behind the listener to behind the speakers. Certainly one of the top 3 or 4 best HT audio experiences I have ever enjoyed (the best costing about 10x what Craig has invested).

The room is appropriatley treated to extract the max out of the system. Really, really well done. I thorougly enjoyed myself. And did I say his system was EXCELLENT !!
Thanks Chuck. It was a really fun weekend.*

*(For those reading along, it turned out to be a full weekend instead of a 1-day visit. As I was driving Chuck back to the airport on Sunday morning, we ran into the ice storm that blanketed the northeast on Sunday. One second the road was fine... and the next second we were skating on a sheet of ice. I was standing on the brakes and the car was not stopping! Fortunately, we were able to get to the shoulder and stopped without spinning, without hitting anything and without anything hitting us. However, up ahead we could see that some other drivers were not so lucky. We sat for almost 3 hours while they worked to clear the road and get it de-iced, at which point we turned around and came back to my house. Chuck got to watch the Packers/Seahawks game with us and some of my local Packer fan friends... and share in our agony. He then got home on Monday, all safe and sound. Quite an adventure. )

Anyway, thanks for your kind words about my system. It's been a lifelong work-in-progress, and those are real compliments coming from a guy who has also spent a lifetime in audio. The ultimate compliment is that it looks like you are going to buy a full set of Triad speakers:
Triad Owner's Thread
It'll be really interesting to see how they work in your room, and what you do to optimize/integrate them. I can't wait for you to get them setup and dialed in so I can get your impressions of them in your room and system. I know I'll be taking a trip to Atlanta sometime in the future!

The music DVD we listened to first was Steely Dan's Gaucho in 5.1 hi-rez DVD-Audio. We listened to it with DTS Neo:X applied, which added the Wides and Rears, thus making it a 9.1 experience. In my experience, this combination of a multichannel recording with DTS Neo:X extracting the Wides and Rears is the most seamless, immersive and holographic listening experience I've ever had, which is the reason I played it for you first. It puts you in the middle of the soundstage, and literally surrounds you with dynamic and fluid music. The 2-channel stuff we listened to later was good, (and even better when we upscaled it to multichannel), but it just can't compare to content that is native multichannel. It's really sad that DVD-A and SACD died a premature death, and that BluRay Music has not taken off as an alternative.

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PS. And this is the first time I have ever experienced a seat acutator system that actually increased the listening experience instead of taking me out of it.
Thanks Chuck. The Crowsons are the real deal, and I'm glad you liked them. Seat actuators are not easy to integrate into an audio system, and I've spent an enormous amount of time getting them to "*add* to the experience without taking the listener out of the moment. As with anything in AV, it's all about setup.

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Great system and thanks for your hospitality.
I really enjoyed the weekend too, (except for the driving and the end of the Packer game.)

Craig
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post #372 of 377 Old 01-20-2015, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad you got to experience it first hand Chuck. Yep, Craig's system is probably the best I have heard to date. Only one other system that I experience years ago could come close, but that was many times more expensive when compared to Craig's system, and I am still not convinced it was better.

Yep, his audio and video are just too damn good. It is also because of him that I bought a Crowson for my system. Craig is a great guy and very willing to share his knowledge. That is why my system sounds as good as it does. So again, glad you got to experience it.
Mike, meeting you and your family is one of the best benefits I've realized from being an AVS Forum member. Thanks for being my friend.

Craig

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post #373 of 377 Old 01-20-2015, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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My condolences on Green Bay. Never seen such a thing in my life.
I am still in a state of shock and disbelief. I literally can't believe we went from being 4 minutes from going to the Superbowl... to going... home.... season over... done.

We were clearly the BEST team for 56 of the 60 regulation minutes. We dominated every aspect of the game. How we could collapse at the end like that is just unthinkable.

It will take Packer fans a long time to get over this loss. Our best hope is that Aaron Rodgers uses this to put (another) chip on his shoulder and make it a motivation.

Craig

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post #374 of 377 Old 01-20-2015, 07:47 PM
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When you think of how many things had to happen for that outcome it doesn't seem like real life. The first thing was why in gods name did the defender go to the ground on the interception instead of trying to score or at least get more yards. There was still 4 min left. Then I kept saying to myself if they can keep them from scoring until under 2 min left its over, they score with 2:07 left. Then the 2 point conversion which was a joke. Then a guy that was supposed to be a blocker tries to field the ball on the onside kick when if he just blocked like he was supposed to Jordy Nelson would have definitely snatched it up.

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post #375 of 377 Old 01-20-2015, 08:33 PM
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That may have been the most disastrous final 5 minutes in the history of pro football playoffs. It was very difficult to watch. It gives new meaning to the expression: "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".

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post #376 of 377 Old 01-21-2015, 04:36 AM
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Mike, meeting you and your family is one of the best benefits I've realized from being an AVS Forum member. Thanks for being my friend.

Craig
Thanks Craig. The same to you. I mean that.
But on to that GB game. I can not believe that it finished like that. That onside kick was like out of a circus. I am so upset that they lost.

But what can you do. It will probably be a good super bowl in which I want neither team to win.

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post #377 of 377 Old 01-21-2015, 05:47 AM
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When you think of how many things had to happen for that outcome it doesn't seem like real life. The first thing was why in gods name did the defender go to the ground on the interception instead of trying to score or at least get more yards. There was still 4 min left. Then I kept saying to myself if they can keep them from scoring until under 2 min left its over, they score with 2:07 left. Then the 2 point conversion which was a joke. Then a guy that was supposed to be a blocker tries to field the ball on the onside kick when if he just blocked like he was supposed to Jordy Nelson would have definitely snatched it up.
There was someone on the field who waved the defender to actually go down...it was weird...being conservative at the wrong time.

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