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post #181 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
This is why nearfield subs should be resonant and front subs should be sealed. (this is the opposite of what @Archaea proposes)

Far up front with sealed, by the time the sound has reached the MLP the room has contributed greatly to the overall response. It should and will be nearly flat with little to no low end boost.

However up close you will get the native response of the sub system. A sealed system real close will have a drooping response which is it's nature shape. You can boost and flatten that but at a major loss of headroom.


Sheldon, are you using the other channel on your 3k? How about bridging it and giving the HT18 the full amp?



Good idea. When I get off my ass and move mine nearfield I will be doing the same. Won't rely on them for <30hz really.


I'm powering the Crowson with the other channel so for now it's a no go.

Hmmm maybe put a HPF at 30hz or so and boost them up down to there. I forget that 30hz is hella fun, isn't that the freq in FOTF when the plane is rolling? Love that.

Oh, btw, I tried the Black Hawk Down scene and was amazed at how much feel I was getting from the front subs. I have a different L/T on the mini than I used to... pretty cool to feel that low stuff. The near sub clipped the amp before it even had a chance.
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post #182 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
These are all valid points posted on here. How loud do you need it though? It is nearfield and I personally would rather have it to be a flat response and not overpowering the rest of the subs. Unless you want that real kick in the ass bass that is. Then you are just going to have to live with the ULF not being as loud as the rest of the bass. Bridging it is a good idea that Scott mentioned. Try that and see how you like it at the levels you are expecting.

I may just try it out, I hate to damage it though that's a lot of watts for 1 driver.
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post #183 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
nonsense Scott.

I don't have time to respond right now ---- but having tried both.....

Nearfield sealed any day, anytime. It's the ONLY time I've felt sub 15hz content makes a lick of difference.


You tried the Caps nearfield? I thought you never got around to it. I think those would be amazing nearfield.

I'm telling you, I can feel the F'n Irene scene in my room for the first time and it's not from the near field sub. It's not Austin's room but it's worth having, pretty cool.
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post #184 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:08 PM
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I forgot that you had Crowsons too. Hmm. So those along with the front stage of bass didn't do it for ya, huh?

Just curious... what does the nearfield sub do that the Crowson and front don't?

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post #185 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
nonsense Scott.

I don't have time to respond right now ---- but having tried both.....

Nearfield sealed any day, anytime. It's the ONLY time I've felt sub 15hz content makes a lick of difference.

Nonsense? Why say that?

Up close the sealed will be far, far down in response 15-30hz compared to a resonant system. It's not theory, it's fact.

What you feel and like at home is another story. I'm not saying what you like is wrong but that the shape of response is not as effective as a resonant used up close.

Did you ever use your Captivators nearfield?

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post #186 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:11 PM
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Sheldon I boost my nearfield lowest frequencies quite a bit. And in my opinion the lowest frequencies are the coolest characteristic with the nearfield subs!

You have this in your favor for nearfield -- it doesn't have to be turned up as high to feel the nearfield.
Don't try to level match one sub nearfield with 8 up front. never gonna happen.

Shouldn't have to happen. It's not losing any dB for distance.

Play the track from Xmen - On the Beach when Magneto is controlling all the missles - with and without nearfield sealed subs. It's the only time I've ever thought - man that scene is cool, and was probably the scene that almost solely convinved me to keep the eight sealed subs over the two ported caps.


I 100% disagree with Scottt here, no offense Scott. I'd take my ported cap or a set of horns up front that don't dig deep because nothing I've ever heard matters to me for subsonic frequencies at the front of the room -- so why waste the energy trying? Just produce from 15hz on up at the front of the room - but you can feel that really really low stuff when it's firing directly into your back with nearfield sealed.

I tried nearfield ported with the caps. I wasn't a fan. I know dominguez1 loves ported nearfield, so this may all be a subjective thing.

IN that case Scott's right. I'm right, your right. We can all be right and completely dissent.

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post #187 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:27 PM
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No offense taken at all. I linked your name to my post because I wanted your opinion on this.

I'm no more right than you are as this is about Sheldon and what he wants.

I'm surprised that you enjoy the nearfield subs for <15hz than transducers since you have tried nearly all of them.

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post #188 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 04:34 PM
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I tried nearfield with the caps at my old house. I thought they sounded too agressive that close. Like a blunt instrument, instead of smooth like they did at the front of the room. I admit I didn't have any subs up front to compliment them, but I didn't like the effect at all personally. I didn't try ported behind me with sealed up front in the new room - I wasn't terribly excited to try it - TBH, becuase I wasn't impressed with the effect nearfield at my old place.

But the thing I like about sealed subs nearfield is the lowest frequencies and that driver excursion feel directed towards your back back. Ported wouldn't have that, or would have it to a lesser degree since at 20hz and below it's either A) not dealing with much excursion because of the cabinet assistance, so the driver is barely moving or B) hitting an HPF and being scaled back.

I think I most like a single sub directly behind me too, like carp is doing, because with more than 2 - in my case three - if higher frequencies are directed to the driver you can hear it's behind you as you begin to turn it up louder than the mains for more tactile feel. I've not experimented with the 40hz LPF that popalock used on my nearfield. I've not done much experimenting of any sort with the nearfield except using the Symmetrix 551E to make a fairly flat EQ starting place, trying 1, 2 and 3 nearfield, and playing with the AVR crossover settings.

I do like the nearfield subs quite a bit more than the tactile trasducers (buttkicker mini lfe) that was I was using before. 1 nearfield sealed sub is best for nearfield experience (IMO), but only for the center seat. 2 nearfield subs give two seats the benefit, but pulls the sound to one side in my room and that annoyed me so much I knew it wasn't going to work nearly immediately, but kept it that way for longer than I should have, three is my happy place beacause your center seat and two other seats are both still pretty good - the bass sound pulls a bit towards the center of the room which isn't distracting or even obvious, for those three seats....
My fourth seat is a throwaway seat because it's very close to a wall, and with four chairs and one chari in the exact middle - the fourth chair is just a junk chair considering audio accoustics, so I'm not even trying for anything there. I may hookup the existing buttkicker in that chair so it at least has something fun, though I'd have to buy another iNuke DSP 1000 amp, and my motivation on that is pretty low if I'm honest. Three good seats works for most of my use cases. When I have friends over it's usually just one, or a couple of friends, and my wife won't watch a movie with us when my guy friends are over --- so that typically is just three of us.

So for now I've settled on 3 nearfield and 5 up front.

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post #189 of 289 Old 01-02-2015, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I forgot that you had Crowsons too. Hmm. So those along with the front stage of bass didn't do it for ya, huh?

Just curious... what does the nearfield sub do that the Crowson and front don't?
I already had a HSU MBM that I took the feet off and layed it on it's side so that the driver faced right into the back of my chair, and it does add an extra chest punch at low master volumes that the Crowson and up front speakers and subs just can't do without a lot more volume so right off the bat there is that advantage. If I'm listening to music for long periods of time I always revert back to just the mains with no subs but it's fun and nice to have the extra punch when I want it.

For movies it is yet to be determined. I turned off all the boosting of the low frequencies of the near sub and just matched the highest point of the frequency response of the near sub with the front subs and watched the Hulk scene. Wow, that was the best I've heard that scene! Mains set to large blended with front subs and now near sub with the Crowson crossed at 30hz. I ran it again with the near sub muted and it's still good but not as voilent/agressive/scary sounding/feeling.

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Sheldon I boost my nearfield lowest frequencies quite a bit. And in my opinion the lowest frequencies are the coolest characteristic with the nearfield subs!

You have this in your favor for nearfield -- it doesn't have to be turned up as high to feel the nearfield.
Don't try to level match one sub nearfield with 8 up front. never gonna happen.

Shouldn't have to happen. It's not losing any dB for distance.

Play the track from Xmen - On the Beach when Magneto is controlling all the missles - with and without nearfield sealed subs. It's the only time I've ever thought - man that scene is cool, and was probably the scene that almost solely convinved me to keep the eight sealed subs over the two ported caps.


I 100% disagree with Scottt here, no offense Scott. I'd take my ported cap or a set of horns up front that don't dig deep because nothing I've ever heard matters to me for subsonic frequencies at the front of the room -- so why waste the energy trying? Just produce from 15hz on up at the front of the room - but you can feel that really really low stuff when it's firing directly into your back with nearfield sealed.

I tried nearfield ported with the caps. I wasn't a fan. I know dominguez1 loves ported nearfield, so this may all be a subjective thing.

IN that case Scott's right. I'm right, your right. We can all be right and completely dissent.
I'll experiment more with smaller boosts down low and turning down the near sub more until I find what I like best, it's going to be tough to beat what I just heard with the Hulk scene.
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post #190 of 289 Old 01-03-2015, 09:10 AM
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So there is not way to make it work if I want a level frequency response because I run out of headroom way too fast. What the heck, I don't see this happening to anyone else with a nearfield sub...
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I already had a HSU MBM that I took the feet off and layed it on it's side so that the driver faced right into the back of my chair, and it does add an extra chest punch at low master volumes that the Crowson and up front speakers and subs just can't do without a lot more volume so right off the bat there is that advantage. If I'm listening to music for long periods of time I always revert back to just the mains with no subs but it's fun and nice to have the extra punch when I want it.

For movies it is yet to be determined. I turned off all the boosting of the low frequencies of the near sub and just matched the highest point of the frequency response of the near sub with the front subs and watched the Hulk scene. Wow, that was the best I've heard that scene! Mains set to large blended with front subs and now near sub with the Crowson crossed at 30hz. I ran it again with the near sub muted and it's still good but not as voilent/agressive/scary sounding/feeling.



I'll experiment more with smaller boosts down low and turning down the near sub more until I find what I like best, it's going to be tough to beat what I just heard with the Hulk scene.
Sounds to me like you are getting at least close to your preference then I still jimmy the sub level knob on the nearfield almost every time I am down there screwing around. I end up settling back to a few dB lower than the main subs, but it is still fun to crank the thing hard and get a nice back massage...

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post #191 of 289 Old 01-03-2015, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds to me like you are getting at least close to your preference then I still jimmy the sub level knob on the nearfield almost every time I am down there screwing around. I end up settling back to a few dB lower than the main subs, but it is still fun to crank the thing hard and get a nice back massage...

Haha, you and I are too much alike ^ - can't ever leave well enough alone.
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post #192 of 289 Old 01-05-2015, 08:04 AM
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Haha, you and I are too much alike ^ - can't ever leave well enough alone.
I think you and I are among the top 5 of guys around here for percentage of music listening, if not 1 and 2 respectively. I never stop listening to music. It's either downstairs or up in the den, but it is on from the time I get home to the time I go to sleep. As you already know it is a mixed bag with music and sub level entirely depends on your mood, and the recording. I honestly don't see how anyone can just leave the sub trims completely alone. It can change an entire album dramatically with a click or two one direction or another at times

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post #193 of 289 Old 01-05-2015, 10:01 AM
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I'm there with you guys and I'm beginning to think it's genetic. Started with my dad, then me, now my daughter. We have music running day to night too and it just gets out of control when my daughter gets home from school and jams her tunes in the basement when I'm the floor above doing the same. Our little family of bassheads...
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post #194 of 289 Old 01-05-2015, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you and I are among the top 5 of guys around here for percentage of music listening, if not 1 and 2 respectively. I never stop listening to music. It's either downstairs or up in the den, but it is on from the time I get home to the time I go to sleep. As you already know it is a mixed bag with music and sub level entirely depends on your mood, and the recording. I honestly don't see how anyone can just leave the sub trims completely alone. It can change an entire album dramatically with a click or two one direction or another at times
So true!! Here's the problem though (not really a problem, I LOVE having this much control). I now have too many ways to tweak the bass sitting here using my laptop. I can tweak:

1. The inuke dsp for the bass for the 215's (and I use 2 separate settings, 1 for the midbass and 1 for the lower bass turning up the house curve more or less or flat using the dynamic eq),

2. Minidsp - up front subs

3. Minidsp - the nearfield sub

4. Minidsp - Crowson

5. Sub trim on avr (obviously) out which raises or lowers #2 ,3,4

Usually I have the up front subs off for music, but still...



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I'm there with you guys and I'm beginning to think it's genetic. Started with my dad, then me, now my daughter. We have music running day to night too and it just gets out of control when my daughter gets home from school and jams her tunes in the basement when I'm the floor above doing the same. Our little family of bassheads...
Haha, very cool - you mean she's cranking up the powered Macke's/horn subs down there?!?!?! I was about to say she couldn't compete with you when it comes to volume but maybe she can!

BTW, I remember when people used to tell me I'd grow out of listening to music all the time. They have stopped saying that.
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post #195 of 289 Old 01-05-2015, 08:47 PM
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I am kind of there with you guys on the music thing too. If I were just playing movies I wouldn't constantly be trying to improve the sound and I surely wouldn't have 3 horn subs. Movies are a lot of fun but really loud music for short bursts is just plain exhilarating if the recording is good. Have you heard "Sick Like Me" from In this Moment? Not sure if you like the femal vocals but the drums and bass quality are excellent.

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post #196 of 289 Old 01-06-2015, 08:19 PM
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^sorry if I killed the conversation with an unpopular song suggestion. It sure went cold around here after that. whoops

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post #197 of 289 Old 01-06-2015, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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^sorry if I killed the conversation with an unpopular song suggestion. It sure went cold around here after that. whoops
Haha, not at all Lance I missed that post. I'll check that song out tomorrow. I saw In This Moment open for Ozzy a few years back they didn't impress too much but it could have been the venue/sound guys because Ozzy (zach Wilde on guitar) didn't sound great and I've been to other Ozzy shows that sounded great.

Speaking of metal female vocalists I was cranking up some Arch Enemy today.
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post #198 of 289 Old 01-07-2015, 06:34 AM
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Not a female vocalist but I bet this song would sound good in your basement!

edit: wrong song

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post #199 of 289 Old 01-07-2015, 12:05 PM
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have to try that one when I get home.

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post #200 of 289 Old 01-07-2015, 01:41 PM
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Oops! I posted the wrong song. I meant this one. The drummer is awesome and I love the transitions in the song. Almost sounds like three songs put together. You guys ever heard it before?

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post #201 of 289 Old 01-07-2015, 10:21 PM
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yeah that's pretty good. Vocals are a little hard in spots for me but the drummer is very good and some of the vocals are very good too in other spots.

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post #202 of 289 Old 01-08-2015, 06:38 AM
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yeah that's pretty good. Vocals are a little hard in spots for me but the drummer is very good and some of the vocals are very good too in other spots.
Oh you liked it? I found that song by accident one day when I use to fight mma. I was looking for some crazy metal songs to train to. I am not real big into the yelling part put the over all song is pretty good IMO.
lbrown105 likes this.
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post #203 of 289 Old 01-08-2015, 06:45 AM
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I tried nearfield with the caps at my old house. I thought they sounded too agressive that close. Like a blunt instrument, instead of smooth like they did at the front of the room. I admit I didn't have any subs up front to compliment them, but I didn't like the effect at all personally. I didn't try ported behind me with sealed up front in the new room - I wasn't terribly excited to try it - TBH, becuase I wasn't impressed with the effect nearfield at my old place.

But the thing I like about sealed subs nearfield is the lowest frequencies and that driver excursion feel directed towards your back back. Ported wouldn't have that, or would have it to a lesser degree since at 20hz and below it's either A) not dealing with much excursion because of the cabinet assistance, so the driver is barely moving or B) hitting an HPF and being scaled back.

I think I most like a single sub directly behind me too, like carp is doing, because with more than 2 - in my case three - if higher frequencies are directed to the driver you can hear it's behind you as you begin to turn it up louder than the mains for more tactile feel. I've not experimented with the 40hz LPF that popalock used on my nearfield. I've not done much experimenting of any sort with the nearfield except using the Symmetrix 551E to make a fairly flat EQ starting place, trying 1, 2 and 3 nearfield, and playing with the AVR crossover settings.

I do like the nearfield subs quite a bit more than the tactile trasducers (buttkicker mini lfe) that was I was using before. 1 nearfield sealed sub is best for nearfield experience (IMO), but only for the center seat. 2 nearfield subs give two seats the benefit, but pulls the sound to one side in my room and that annoyed me so much I knew it wasn't going to work nearly immediately, but kept it that way for longer than I should have, three is my happy place beacause your center seat and two other seats are both still pretty good - the bass sound pulls a bit towards the center of the room which isn't distracting or even obvious, for those three seats....
My fourth seat is a throwaway seat because it's very close to a wall, and with four chairs and one chari in the exact middle - the fourth chair is just a junk chair considering audio accoustics, so I'm not even trying for anything there. I may hookup the existing buttkicker in that chair so it at least has something fun, though I'd have to buy another iNuke DSP 1000 amp, and my motivation on that is pretty low if I'm honest. Three good seats works for most of my use cases. When I have friends over it's usually just one, or a couple of friends, and my wife won't watch a movie with us when my guy friends are over --- so that typically is just three of us.

So for now I've settled on 3 nearfield and 5 up front.
I have only experienced a nearfield sub once. I was a local AVS member that mainly hangs out in the Sub forum here at AVS. He had that thing turned up so high it was hurting my teeth (no joke). He LOVED it...me, not so much. Thats what is so awesome about this hobby, lots of ways to go about it find whatever makes you happy.
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post #204 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I got my replacement screen yesterday from Elite. It looks amazing!! It is their 4K material and compared to the standard stuff I bought off of Amazon it's night and day.




Here it is from 1 arm length away, I can't see any weave or pattern, nothing.






Here is the shelf I built for the 212 center channel. The brackets are supposedly rated for 500 pounds each so I assume I'm good to go, I found the studs plus I have really thick wood paneling in between the dry wall and the studs (which made finding the studs really difficult).




I made 4 of these extensions from the wall to hang the screen on. As per Elite's instructions I have 3 at the top and one at the bottom. At the time of this pic I hadn't yet realized that I had the metal bracket upside down. Easy fix when I realized my mistake.














They sent me another black backing so I used one on the back of the screen and one on my old screen wall.






Here is a before shot:






And after. My head is now 9' 4" inches away and I thought I'd have to scoot my rows back a bit but I don't think I'll need to, it looks great. Same exact size as my wall screen, 158" diagonal 2:35:1.





For movie nights I'll just swivel the 215's so they aren't toed in so much and no one will have any part of the screen blocked.


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post #205 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 12:13 PM
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Bout-mutha-****ing-time, brotha!!! Wow!

Nice job, Sheldon.

Welcome to the AT club.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #206 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Bout-mutha-****ing-time, brotha!!! Wow!

Nice job, Sheldon.

Welcome to the AT club.

Haha, I knew you'd say that... and your right.

I'm not fully AT though since my LR aren't behind the screen but I like how 2 channel music sounds with them were they are.
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post #207 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to thank Tim for his floating screen idea. It doesn't look much like a floating screen since the sides of the frame go pretty much all the way to the 2 stacks of subs but still I love the look and it was pretty easy to do.
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post #208 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 02:35 PM
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Haha, I knew you'd say that... and your right.

I'm not fully AT though since my LR aren't behind the screen but I like how 2 channel music sounds with them were they are.
Hey that still counts 100%. You have an AT screen material with a speaker behind it, the most important one at that. Having one or all behind it is just a matter of configuration. Some may argue what you are doing is worthy method. Considering how much music you listen to, I'd recommend no other way for you.
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post #209 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 02:36 PM
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Sheldon...it looks amazing man...good job. One of these days, I think I'll join the AT screen club.

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post #210 of 289 Old 01-18-2015, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Sheldon...it looks amazing man...good job. One of these days, I think I'll join the AT screen club.
Ha, people here were trying to convince me for literally years!! Eventually I think it happens to all of us, your time is coming!!
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