My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room. - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 124 Old 12-18-2016, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Not surprised. Your speakers are tiny. You need this.

Should kick up the fun with this and Crowson's.
Tiny? What on earth are you talking about? Besides: everybody has tiny speakers compared to you, you are damaged goods, man

If you are talking about my Atmos speakers, sure they are small, but i don't play at reference anyway, so it's all good

And hey, my PSA S3000i has dual 15" and the SVS has dual 12". So they're not THAT tiny.

If anything the B1200 is the tiny one

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #62 of 124 Old 12-30-2016, 08:51 PM
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Your electronic wiring skills impress me. Nice set up!
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post #63 of 124 Old 01-08-2017, 04:47 PM
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Your electronic wiring skills impress me. Nice set up!
Indeed, very interesting setup!
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post #64 of 124 Old 01-27-2017, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

Ok a little work to do today. Just bought a demoed AVR-X6200W, so going to replace my 5200 and calibrate it all today.

So i now have HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on both AVR's and can get the same 9.1.8 DTS:X as i get in Atmos.

Should also simplify my UHD HDR watching.



Not much difference, looks exactly the same, LOL.
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Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201

Last edited by Nalleh; 01-28-2017 at 12:25 AM.
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post #65 of 124 Old 01-28-2017, 07:29 AM
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Awesome, I think it is great that you continue to evolve your set-up, looking forward to your impressions of 9.1.8 DTS:X !

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post #66 of 124 Old 01-30-2017, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Done. DTS:X 9.1.8



I have also turned around a bit on the ceiling speakers. By using the vertical mount i got a lot more angle to play with, so i adjusted them at the MLP. That is, the left ones at the right MLP, and the right ones at the left MLP, for energy trading. As mounted before, straight down, in scenes with for example rain from above, i tended to hear that from "my" side of ceiling speakers, not from centered above. This is now much better.







I also have received my two new Crowsons, so I now have 4 under the couch. Seems more effective, effortless and they run cooler.
And got a new amp for the Crowsons, anybody wanna guess?



Yup, i got a Inuke NU6000DSP



Horrible fan noise, but had two Noctua fans, so i switched them out. Virtually silent now, and the amp never runs hot.

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My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201

Last edited by Nalleh; 09-06-2017 at 06:08 AM.
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post #67 of 124 Old 02-02-2017, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post

Now that would be interesting alternative approach:
Activating Width speakers in both configurations (CONFIG-1: 5.1.4+wides, CONFIG-2: 7.1.2+wides), to subsequently:
(a) combine signals of both configurations to feed one set of Width speakers, or
(b) keep signals separate to feed an additional sets of Wides.

This last option would be my new favorite for using multiple AVRs/processors, as it enables a 13.1.4 lay-out:
- C + L/R at 25/30 degrees (from CONFIG-1 or CONFIG-2, as now they are identical)
- 'pure' Wides at 50 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Wides/Surrounds mix at 70 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Surrounds at 90 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Surround/Rears mix at 120 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Rears at 150 degrees (from CONFIG-2)

As this multiple AVR/processor set-up includes those 'Special Wides' or 'Surround-Wides' found in a Atmos 5.1.x+wides configuration, it could be referred to as SWATMOS, available in either 11.1.4 or 13.1.4.



As explained above, I believe it CAN be made 'technically correct' for ATMOS. Even more so, it will probably deliver an experience closer to that of a mixing stage or cinema, as it creates arrayed bed channel surrounds (3 pair, one of which shared with rears) and rears (2 pairs, one of which shared with surrounds).

.
Should i go for it?
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post #68 of 124 Old 02-02-2017, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:



Should i go for it?
Worth a try for sure!

I am beginning to think that I need to mount the speakers on a rail system that allows easy repositioning of the surrounds and ceiling speakers along known paths...

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post #69 of 124 Old 02-02-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
Worth a try for sure!

I am beginning to think that I need to mount the speakers on a rail system that allows easy repositioning of the surrounds and ceiling speakers along known paths...
Not such a bad idea actually. It would simplify adjusting between different formats.
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My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #70 of 124 Old 02-03-2017, 02:39 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW, when we remodeled the living room, i was looking for a way to "map" where the speakers should go in this room according to Atmos guidelines.

I am a total amatour in Sketchup, but i managed to make a simple drawing with my dimension and the angles for all Atmos speakers. This helped and confirmed i was on the right track.

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post #71 of 124 Old 02-03-2017, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
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And for the heights. With the dimensions all laid out, it was much easier to get the speakers were tey should be.

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post #72 of 124 Old 02-03-2017, 08:25 AM
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^^^ Great idea Nalleh, I was thinking about the best way to locate these. using SketchUp is going to make this way easier!
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post #73 of 124 Old 02-03-2017, 10:58 AM
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Nice setup! I've been considering what it would take to implement a dual AVR setup to get to 9.1.4, so seeing how you have your setup configured is very helpful. I don't think I would take it quite as far as you have to get to 9.1.8, but then again...
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post #74 of 124 Old 02-09-2017, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, after some more testing i have desided that Swatmos need to happen!

I will get more into it next week, i just need to plan how it is best configured, but it will now include 3 !?! Atmos AVR's for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos setup. Even so, i think i can get a simpler setup and operation than i have now, and easier switch to all 3 formats.

Stay tuned.

Triple Atmos Receivers
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My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #75 of 124 Old 02-09-2017, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Well, after some more testing i have desided that Swatmos need to happen!

I will get more into it next week, i just need to plan how it is best configured, but it will now include 3 !?! Atmos AVR's for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos setup. Even so, i think i can get a simpler setup and operation than i have now, and easier switch to all 3 formats.

Stay tuned.

This does sound interesting!


Careful Trinnov will be watching you!

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post #76 of 124 Old 02-24-2017, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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13.1.8 Franken-SWAtmos is up and running



As you can see, the two bottom AVR's have wides active(the little channel indicator to the right in front display: pure wides and wides/sur1.

And it is working as intended. More details is coming.
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My setup:
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post #77 of 124 Old 02-24-2017, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foundation42 View Post
Nice setup! I've been considering what it would take to implement a dual AVR setup to get to 9.1.4, so seeing how you have your setup configured is very helpful. I don't think I would take it quite as far as you have to get to 9.1.8, but then again...
I have to say if your looking for advice and tips on running "crazy" speaker combos Nalleh is probably the best person to ask here LOL Of course its only "crazy" outside of the AVS forums here his 11.4.12 is practically to simple haha
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post #78 of 124 Old 02-25-2017, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, since getting the SWATMOS idea from @maikeldepotter , i decided to test it out. So, the idea is based on the discovery that the wides play different content as a result of how you activate them. You can do that two ways:
1. Use just one set of height speakers for a 9.1.2 setup.
This results in objects only playing from the wides.

2. Use no rear surrounds for a 5.1.4 +wides setup.
Now the wides play a mix of objects and surround sounds, but not exactly the same content as neither the "pure" wides, nor the "pure" surrounds.

At the same time as this was discussed in the "wide appreciation thread", i upgraded my non-DTS:X Denon 5200 to a 6200. I WAS going to sell the 5200, but the aforementioned suggestion got me fired up. So to test this out, i had all three Atmos AVR's connected to the following:

First AVR setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure wides" playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Second AVR setup in 5.1.4+W setup for Wides/Sur1 playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Third one setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure" surrounds, playing only these surrounds, all others silent.

I could now play any combination of these 3 sets of speakers, and listen to differences. I used severeal of the Atmos demo tracks and also the Bailando music video, as music har repetetiv and consistent sounds.

As the Bailando video was a very good example to use, let's do that:

Pure wides: can be silent 5-10 seconds at a time, and then play one distinct sound, very "digital". By that i mean it starts and ends very sudden, no ambiance, no echo, just very "dry", presise sounds.

Wides/Sur1: this is a lot more like normal surround sound, much more sounds, and you can hear some percussions and chorus playing. And these sounds have more ambiance, not so "on/off", and more "smooth".

Pure surrounds: these play even more chorus, and now you can hear guitars, and other sounds. Very clear difference when muting and un-muting these versus only the two sets of wides.

So clearly not the same content in these 3 sets of channels.

Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.

And after enabling all speaker for the full 13.1.8, one thing is very noticable : the presision and placement of sound coming from the front corners, between my fronts and pure surrounds, are much better. Now playing Leaf, Amaze, or films like Gravity, it is the the best i have heard from my setup!

I will update the first post with the new setup, wich is actually a lot simpler, despite now including 3 Atmos AVR's. (And still my Yama Multi-zone-active-speaker-switch).

Here is a pic of the new "SURROUND ARRAY". From left in pic:
Pure Wides @50 degrees (floorstanders)
Wides/Sur1 @70 degrees
Pure Surrounds@85 degrees
Sur2/Rears @ 110 degrees.

Surround back(out of pic) @150 degrees.

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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #79 of 124 Old 02-25-2017, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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First post updated with new setup and some pics

Triple Atmos Receivers
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #80 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.
During such experiment, were you able to identify any sounds appearing in the 'pure wides' (at 50 degrees), while at that very same time being completely absent from the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees)? I would think that such moments will not occur...

On the other hand, with just the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees) and the 'pure surrounds' (at 90 degrees) playing, I think you might be able to identify sounds playing in the 'pure surrounds' while at that same time NOT in the 'surround wides'. That would confirm the hypothesis that only surround bed channel info is copied to the 'surround wides', and not the sound objects positioned at the surround location.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
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post #81 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 12:16 AM
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I think you should rename this thread to "Evolution of madness".

When you play Atmos, is there any difference in sound between your top an heights speakers?

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Code:
      FL  C  FR      | Input  : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
 TFL  WL     WR  TFR | Magic  : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
 TML  SL     SR  TMR | Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra
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post #82 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
During such experiment, were you able to identify any sounds appearing in the 'pure wides' (at 50 degrees), while at that very same time being completely absent from the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees)? I would think that such moments will not occur...
No, the 'surround wides' simply had more sounds than the 'pure wides', and they were not as 'digital'. When listening to each of these wides channels seperate, labeling 'pure wides' as OBJECTS ONLY and 'surround wides' as SURROUND channels is a good description.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
On the other hand, with just the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees) and the 'pure surrounds' (at 90 degrees) playing, I think you might be able to identify sounds playing in the 'pure surrounds' while at that same time NOT in the 'surround wides'. That would confirm the hypothesis that only surround bed channel info is copied to the 'surround wides', and not the sound objects positioned at the surround location.
That is correct, and the clearest example was as i mentioned the guitars in Bailando: clearly in the 'pure surrounds', but not at all in the 'surround wides' (and of course not in the 'pure wides' either).

When i discovered that these 3 sets of channels did not have the same content at all, that was enough, i was sold on SWAtmos



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I think you should rename this thread to "Evolution of madness".

When you play Atmos, is there any difference in sound between your top an heights speakers?
Yeah, the madness don't seem to stop, especially when browsing this forum

Playing ONLY 4 heights vs playing ONLY 4 tops: no, as both ways pull all height info out of the ear level speakers. But as the helicopter demo clip showed, heights vs top do behave different. And the placement is of course different. And using all 8 helps in planting the sounds better when panning front to back and visa versa.

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Last edited by Nalleh; 02-26-2017 at 08:18 AM.
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post #83 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 02:18 PM
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I like your more is better approach, it looks like you are using a center height in your mix, how are creating this channel or are you just using the center preout to drive the center height speaker?
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post #84 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I like your more is better approach, it looks like you are using a center height in your mix, how are creating this channel or are you just using the center preout to drive the center height speaker?
Yes, i use the center output from the 6200 to power the "center height". That way it is correctly calibrated and EQ'ed, not just connected in parallel to the 7200 center.

Read more about it in the first post

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post #85 of 124 Old 02-26-2017, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.

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My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #86 of 124 Old 02-27-2017, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Ok, since getting the SWATMOS idea from @maikeldepotter , i decided to test it out. So, the idea is based on the discovery that the wides play different content as a result of how you activate them. You can do that two ways:
1. Use just one set of height speakers for a 9.1.2 setup.
This results in objects only playing from the wides.

2. Use no rear surrounds for a 5.1.4 +wides setup.
Now the wides play a mix of objects and surround sounds, but not exactly the same content as neither the "pure" wides, nor the "pure" surrounds.

At the same time as this was discussed in the "wide appreciation thread", i upgraded my non-DTS:X Denon 5200 to a 6200. I WAS going to sell the 5200, but the aforementioned suggestion got me fired up. So to test this out, i had all three Atmos AVR's connected to the following:

First AVR setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure wides" playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Second AVR setup in 5.1.4+W setup for Wides/Sur1 playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Third one setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure" surrounds, playing only these surrounds, all others silent.

I could now play any combination of these 3 sets of speakers, and listen to differences. I used severeal of the Atmos demo tracks and also the Bailando music video, as music har repetetiv and consistent sounds.

As the Bailando video was a very good example to use, let's do that:

Pure wides: can be silent 5-10 seconds at a time, and then play one distinct sound, very "digital". By that i mean it starts and ends very sudden, no ambiance, no echo, just very "dry", presise sounds.

Wides/Sur1: this is a lot more like normal surround sound, much more sounds, and you can hear some percussions and chorus playing. And these sounds have more ambiance, not so "on/off", and more "smooth".

Pure surrounds: these play even more chorus, and now you can hear guitars, and other sounds. Very clear difference when muting and un-muting these versus only the two sets of wides.

So clearly not the same content in these 3 sets of channels.

Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.

And after enabling all speaker for the full 13.1.8, one thing is very noticable : the presision and placement of sound coming from the front corners, between my fronts and pure surrounds, are much better. Now playing Leaf, Amaze, or films like Gravity, it is the the best i have heard from my setup!

I will update the first post with the new setup, wich is actually a lot simpler, despite now including 3 Atmos AVR's. (And still my Yama Multi-zone-active-speaker-switch).

Here is a pic of the new "SURROUND ARRAY". From left in pic:
Pure Wides @50 degrees (floorstanders)
Wides/Sur1 @70 degrees
Pure Surrounds@85 degrees
Sur2/Rears @ 110 degrees.

Surround back(out of pic) @150 degrees.

Great information! Given your findings, what would your recommendation be for adding a single pair of wide speakers to a 7.1.4 layout? Is your second test configuration (5.1.4+W) the better target to look toward for the second AVR when trying to get to 9.1.4?

My playing with the pure wide configuration (9.1.2)) found the same thing you did as far as the very on or off nature of what was sent to those speakers.
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post #87 of 124 Old 02-27-2017, 05:22 PM
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Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.

Simply wow! The speaker layout with the added colour is almost as exciting as Atmos itself!

Really helps to explain how you have this running, thanks for sharing!

BTW, this is the layout that I would like to achieve for my HT (I have all of the required speakers on hand).

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post #88 of 124 Old 03-01-2017, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foundation42 View Post
Great information! Given your findings, what would your recommendation be for adding a single pair of wide speakers to a 7.1.4 layout? Is your second test configuration (5.1.4+W) the better target to look toward for the second AVR when trying to get to 9.1.4?

My playing with the pure wide configuration (9.1.2)) found the same thing you did as far as the very on or off nature of what was sent to those speakers.
Well, it depends. I guess technically the 9.1.0 + 0.0.4 dual layout is the most correct, but it would probably also be were you least notice wides. While a 7.1.4 + wides (from a 5.1.+W second setup) would be more noticable, espesially if you mounted them wide, like closer to 70 degress. They really work well with the surround to widen both the surround field and the 'cinematic' wide front field.


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Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
Simply wow! The speaker layout with the added colour is almost as exciting as Atmos itself!

Really helps to explain how you have this running, thanks for sharing!

BTW, this is the layout that I would like to achieve for my HT (I have all of the required speakers on hand).
You're welcome

Well, i wonder if i am approaching the point diminishing returns regarding speaker count, LOL.

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #89 of 124 Old 03-02-2017, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Well, it depends. I guess technically the 9.1.0 + 0.0.4 dual layout is the most correct, but it would probably also be were you least notice wides. While a 7.1.4 + wides (from a 5.1.+W second setup) would be more noticable, espesially if you mounted them wide, like closer to 70 degress. They really work well with the surround to widen both the surround field and the 'cinematic' wide front field.




You're welcome

Well, i wonder if i am approaching the point diminishing returns regarding speaker count, LOL.
I would say that given a singular row of seating and you are about covered!
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post #90 of 124 Old 03-13-2017, 01:52 PM
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Confused as to the separation for the heights. I get set of rears, fronts and scatmos TM. In this config, only the matrix middle would play in TM and there would be no redundancy...

However in your .8 how much separation are you getting from RH and TR and same question with fronts? Seems like you would actually be shrinking the sound stage with your .8 vs. .6 scatmos..

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AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2 Bed), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4 Monitor Series II, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1-Klipsch RW12D, Sub 2-MTX SW2
Projector-Optoma HD33 DLP 3D, Screen-Da-Lite 100" Model B, TV-Insignia 65" LCD 1080p (NS-65D550NA15)
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