BBC HD changing their resolution for delivery - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 02-28-2008, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Only of interest to a few - but BBC HD will be revising their HD programme delivery requirements from November 2008 (still a while away)

They will be shifting from HDCam (which is 1440x1080 3:1:1 on tape) to HDCam SR (in 1920x1080 4:2:2 mode)

This means BBC shows will be delivered, and hopefully mastered, in full 1920x1080 resolution. Whether this means BBC HD broadcasts will also shift to 1920x1080 - which should still deliver good results at 16.5Mbs in H264 I don't know. (It could be the BBC HD transmission server is still 1440x1080)
sneals2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 02-28-2008, 04:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Could the Beeb be doing this to better compete in the US marketplace while maintaining the 1440x1080 UK transmission standard?

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #3 of 21 Old 02-28-2008, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Could the Beeb be doing this to better compete in the US marketplace while maintaining the 1440x1080 UK transmission standard?

Could be - though it is only the 1080/50i TX delivery standard that has changed. High-end BBC stuff has, I believe, been mastered to HDCam SR already, with just a dub to HDCam for TX.

However removing the HDCam point in the BBC HD TX chain does mean the common sense argument for 1440x1080 TX has gone.

Other broadcasters only using PAFF H264 extensions, and not the more efficient MBAFF extensions that the BBC use, are 1920x1080 at similar data rates with no major artefact issues - so it will be interesting to see.

I suspect the move is caused by more and more productions being mastered to HDCam SR and the slightly nonsensical requirement, and extra cost, to reduce their quality for transmission?

Another change - happening earlier this year - is that shows delivered in HD no longer require an accompanying SD version.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 02-28-2008, 08:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mark Vidonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Fort Mill, SC
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Also, in the case of Blu-Ray discs, as they did with Planet Earth, the better resolution might be because of that. It makes for a better product for them to sell.

Mark Vidonic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Mark Vidonic is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 02-29-2008, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Yep - and I think acquired content - like HD movie transfers and the occasional US HD drama series the BBC show (Damages springs to mind as a current US show on the BBC in HD) are likely to be delivered on HDCam SR in the first instance these days.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 02-29-2008, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Vidonic View Post

Also, in the case of Blu-Ray discs, as they did with Planet Earth, the better resolution might be because of that. It makes for a better product for them to sell.

Yes - though in the case of Planet Earth - I believe quite a lot of content was shot on 720p native Varicams to DVCProHD (as at the point it was shot it was a more flexible camera when it came to shooting at variable frame rates) - but I take your point.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 02-29-2008, 04:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Yep - and I think acquired content - like HD movie transfers and the occasional US HD drama series the BBC show (Damages springs to mind as a current US show on the BBC in HD) are likely to be delivered on HDCam SR in the first instance these days.

What do you think of Damages? Interesting show huh?

I think they start to shoot the next series soon. The strike has put many cable shows that premiere in the summer here off schedule by months. We will be lucky to see them by fall now.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #8 of 21 Old 02-29-2008, 11:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
rustycruiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
More Beeb news:


http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/ne...Rugby-In-3D/p1

Quote:


There's always an argument that watching sports on TV, no matter how large your screen, is never as good as seeing the event first hand. Helping to blur the boundary further during the current Six Nations rugby matches, the BBC is proposing to broadcast the 8th of March match between England and Scotland in 3D as a proof of concept test.

The event will be a limited showing held at the BBCs Riverside studio and is being orchestrated by both the Beeb and a consortium named the3Dfirm. The broadcast will be filmed using three separate camera rigs, themselves comprised of a pair of high-definition Sony HDC950s cameras, transmitted via satellite to Riverside and then shown on a big screen. Viewers will have to wear stereoscopic glasses to see the 3D effect.

The 3D broadcast is set to be a standalone affair, so commentary is likely to be sourced from the main BBC Sports feed. As this is the first time the BBC has trialled 3D broadcasts, the video isn't likely to be as well cut together as standard footage, but those lucky enough to get in on the action are unlikely to have cause to complain.

Aashish Chandarana, BBC Sport Innovations Executive, commented:

"We're trying to do something no-one's tried before and bounce dual HD signals around and re-encode them as a 3D experience. Editorially it will not be a fast-cut TV experience but more the experience you'd get if you were at Murrayfield. We're experimenting with camera positions. There won't be too many fast-cuts, fast pans or zoom close ups. The director will be new to this too."

rustycruiser is online now  
post #9 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 06:10 AM
Member
 
SteveBagley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Yep - and I think acquired content - like HD movie transfers and the occasional US HD drama series the BBC show (Damages springs to mind as a current US show on the BBC in HD) are likely to be delivered on HDCam SR in the first instance these days.

Torchwood is mastered to SR too I believe, and I'd be amazed if Last of the summer wine, Silent Witness and Cranford weren't considering they all shot to SR in the field. Planet Earth was (I think) mastered entirely uncompressed (like most BBC NHU stuff) so I'm sure there is a higher than HDCam copy about. It is also likely to have very little effect on production, other than just having to buy a more expensive tape since shows are generally finished on computer rather than tape-to-tape.

It's certainly a good move since it removes an additional codec step from the transmission chain (SR is effectively transparent) and so should lead to less artefacts in the final images sent to the emission encoder (which will be important for HD Freeview). Currently, a show can go thourgh the following codecs: DVCproHD (6.7:1) -> DNxHD or equiv (about 5:1) -> HDCam (4:1) -> MPEG2 on the playout server (at 60Mbps or so iirc) -> H264 (16.5Mbps)...

Steven
SteveBagley is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 12:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Could the Beeb be doing this to better compete in the US marketplace while maintaining the 1440x1080 UK transmission standard?

Keep in mind that HDCAM still inputs and outputs 1920x1080/60i or 24/sF, aka SMPTE 292. Internally it's 3:1:1 1440 but that is upsampled on output. Of course the damage is done once the image is downsampled to 1440 @ 3:1:1 upon recording.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is online now  
post #11 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 12:37 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NetworkTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 15,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Keep in mind that HDCAM still inputs and outputs 1920x1080/60i or 24/sF, aka SMPTE 292. Internally it's 3:1:1 1440 but that is upsampled on output. Of course the damage is done once the image is downsampled to 1440 @ 3:1:1 upon recording.

Which is kind of the point of switching to a format that doesn't downsample in the chain.

Using HDCAM is like buying fresh baked bread, putting it in the freezer, then hauling it back out and heating it in oven to try to get that warm, fresh baked appearence. It's hot at either end, but certainly isn't the same as it was before you froze it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NetworkTV is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 03:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Yeah, but I don't know of anyone shooting in noncompressed HD.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #13 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Yeah, but I don't know of anyone shooting in noncompressed HD.

No - the highest quality tape in widespread use seems to be the lightly compressed HDCam SR format. The only non-compressed format that is likely to be used at the moment is likely to be a hard drive based data recorder I'd imagine. (There was the BTS Voodoo uncompressed 3/4" HD recorder - a bit like a D1 on steroids - but it was only used for film post - and, like D1, is no longer in widespread use AIUI)

I think the BBC post produced Planet Earth in the uncompressed domain as they were shooting on such a wide variety of formats and codecs it probably made sense to keep the editing process as clean as possible to reduce extra concatenation artefacts - and to ensure the final grade was as artefact free as possible? If you're editing in the data domain and not using tape, and have the space and bandwith it probably makes sense?
sneals2000 is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 03-01-2008, 04:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NetworkTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 15,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Yeah, but I don't know of anyone shooting in noncompressed HD.

Who said anything about uncompressed? We're talking resolution, not compression. It's simply good practice to maintain the same resolution throughout the process. You can't add pixels that aren't there.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NetworkTV is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 03-02-2008, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Who said anything about uncompressed? We're talking resolution, not compression. It's simply good practice to maintain the same resolution throughout the process. You can't add pixels that aren't there.

Yep - subsampling and compression aren't the same thing.

Also - just because you shoot compressed doesn't mean you should edit compressed. If you shoot HDCam / HDCam SR but then edit using a different compression system (like the Avid HD codec or Apple's) you are concatenating codecs - which you can remove if you edit uncompressed to maximise quality.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 03-02-2008, 10:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Who said anything about uncompressed? We're talking resolution, not compression. It's simply good practice to maintain the same resolution throughout the process. You can't add pixels that aren't there.

I am talking about resolution, but you made the bread analogy and to me that sounded more like compression than resolution.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #17 of 21 Old 03-02-2008, 03:21 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NetworkTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 15,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

Yep - subsampling and compression aren't the same thing.

Also - just because you shoot compressed doesn't mean you should edit compressed. If you shoot HDCam / HDCam SR but then edit using a different compression system (like the Avid HD codec or Apple's) you are concatenating codecs - which you can remove if you edit uncompressed to maximise quality.

I don't know any TV production outfit that edits uncompressed. HD video is huge and all but impossible to manage without some form of compression.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NetworkTV is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 03-02-2008, 03:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NetworkTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 15,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

I am talking about resolution, but you made the bread analogy and to me that sounded more like compression than resolution.

It was a reference to getting the same thing going in as coming out. I could have used something in reference to ice, but bread is more tasty...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NetworkTV is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 03-02-2008, 06:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mikemikeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: DC Area
Posts: 1,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

I am talking about resolution, but you made the bread analogy and to me that sounded more like compression than resolution.

The analogy could be used for either. Once 1920x1080i is down-resolved to 1440x1080i, it won't have that hearth-baked out-of-the-oven goodness of 1920x1080i again, even if upconverted back to 1920x1080i. Hence the bread analogy makes sense in a resolution sense, too.
mikemikeb is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 03-03-2008, 01:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I don't know any TV production outfit that edits uncompressed. HD video is huge and all but impossible to manage without some form of compression.

As mentioned above - BBC Natural History in Bristol (in the UK) apparently do - and Planet Earth apparently was. The BBC NHU production system is tapeless after ingest until playout (with editing and grading performed tapelessly AIUI) - allowing uncompressed post if you want to. I believe a similar non-linear/tapeless post solution is used by BBC Wales in Cardiff for Torchwood in HD and Doctor Who in SD - though I don't know if this is uncompressed or compressed.

ISTR that the BBC Bristol HD system uses Sledgehammer storage which is capable of running uncompressed. You telecine (uncompressed) or tape ingest (with only the source tape format compression artefacts) into it, and can edit in Smoke and grade in Lustre using this in the uncompressed domain. The BBC Bristol post site on BBC Resources web site advertises their Smoke as 10 bit uncompressed capable, and their Telecine capable of delivering directly to their online storage, with Lustre and Smoke, allowing an uncompressed, compression-artefact free path until the final output to tape... The case study for Planet Earth mentions that the NHU wanted to avoid compression artefacts making things look worse in post, and had 11 hours of online storage. As Steve Bagley has said - this means this presumably means there is an HD uncompressed master of Planet Earth knocking around in the BBC somewhere on data tape. I suspect HDCam SR would now be deemed good enough to be considered as uncompressed - but I'm not aware how HDCam SR's codec works in the non-linear domain.


http://www.max-t.com/products/sledgehammerhdio.html
http://www.max-t.com/downloads/casestudies/bbc.pdf
http://www.bbcresources.com/postprod...stol/high.html

For high-end post in London, the BBC have Quantel's eQ system, as well as Smoke and Lustre, also capable of HD uncompressed working. I believe that both systems are used for uncompressed conforms - with EDLs generated using non-linear offlines.

Of course this stuff is only for high-end - for lower end stuff online HD capable Avids with Unity central storage, using DNxHD compression, are in widespread use, and tape conform suites are still around as well.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 03-04-2008, 01:47 AM
Member
 
SteveBagley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

As Steve Bagley has said - this means this presumably means there is an HD uncompressed master of Planet Earth knocking around in the BBC somewhere on data tape.

Yep, if you look at this: http://www.bbcresources.com/postprod...anetearth.html then it shows how they actually finished Planet Earth in the RGB 4:4:4 domain as DPX files on the sledgehammer.

It is important to remember the difference between editing and conforming. Yes, editing in uncompressed HD would be tricky (but by no means impossible, most modern Desktop Macs can easily cope), but the quality doesn't matter at that point (quite often the editing is done in SD using DVCam copies of the material). Conforming however can be done easily in uncompressed HD and there are plenty of systems (Baselight, Nucoda, Lustre etc) set up to do just that...

Steven
SteveBagley is offline  
Reply HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off