Comcast HD Quality Reduction: Details, Screenshots - Page 19 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #541 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrider View Post

And how do we know this?

That's just the way TiVos work. They record the original bitstream to disk. The DirecTivos, Tivo Series3, and TivoHD all work that way.

The TiVo also lacks the hardware necessary to do what you suggest. The ViXS XCode-2115 doesn't do HD transcoding or transrating like the other models in the series. That functionality was sacrificed for a second MP@ML (SD) encoder for analog channels. TiVo uses the Xcode as a CableCard receiver and MPEG-2 encoder for analog SD channels.

HDTV Recorder Comparison Chart | DTVPal DVR FAQ | New! TiVo Premiere (Series4) FAQ |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bfdtv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #542 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 04:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That's just the way TiVos work. They record the original bitstream to disk. The DirecTivos, Tivo Series3, and TivoHD all work that way.

All the cable box DVRs, and I presume the DirecTV & Dish DVRs work that way - just record the video/audio bitstream. So they play out EXACTLY what they received.

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #543 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 05:10 PM
Newbie
 
anisbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
so I'm watching the Good Eats episode on Food Network HD right now (The Man Food episode) and the picture seems horrible. It's very bloomy/blurry, I'm not really sure if it's because of the recent simulcast switch with this channel, the 3:1 compression talked about in this thread, or if this episode is just old...

Figured I'd post it here and see what y'all think. I have the SA8300HDC DVR STB for Comcast and a 1080P 52" LCD by Samsung. The show looked great last week before the change.
anisbet is offline  
post #544 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 05:15 PM
Senior Member
 
bidzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

It's not just in the house though, that coax line runs all the way back to the node, a node sometimes feeding 500+ homes, there's only so much you can squeeze in a single coax line. Smaller node size is another way cable is looking to increase bandwidth delivery.

Laying fiber all the way to the house is very expensive.

I understand the one coax cable supports tons of users, it's like an ethernet segment. Don't tell me your backbone is all fiber if there are limitations as to what you can deliver to me/my house as a service and signal. What good is having the bandwidth at the head end and not the latter.

Again, when the fiber glut was upon us, it could be had for cheap money. Comcast isn't exactly a small company either. The company is slow to adopt anything and want to maximize every single penny they can on their infrastructure and will make the consumer pay for it.

We as comcast customers pay a very high premium for their sevrice and the quality is terrible, from the bad signal, bad STB's, terrible On Demand interface, horrible dumbed down tivo, should I keep going????
bidzer is offline  
post #545 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 05:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JayMan007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Short Pump, VA
Posts: 1,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by impala454 View Post

Even though everyone cries about bandwidth, it's still not the tell-tale sign of PQ. I notice FoodHD was one of the lowest bandwidth in the "before" sample in the OP. IMHO that is one of the best looking HD channels I have seen.

I agree... until today when they started the simulcast of FoodNetwork on Food-HD... Just saw Emeril in stretch-o-vision.
JayMan007 is offline  
post #546 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 06:19 PM
Member
 
thoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizio View Post

I have a theory and anyone who knows the facts, please let us know exactly what they are, please?

Recently in Nashville, we got the "Project Infinity" upgrade to the VOD service. After this supposed upgrade, I first noticed the degradation in of the HD broadcasts. This is even before seeing this thread. This upgrade took place around a month or so ago.

Hey now, THAT is interesting.....

I don't know about "Project Infinity," but our system DID NOT HAVE VOD at all, until it was implemented a few weeks ago. Yes, you bet, right about the time that the HD PQ went down the toilet. That said, it seems that VOD was turned on a week or two before the HD quality tanked, but the fact remains that VOD was implemented right around the time that HD PQ went down the toilet....
thoots is offline  
post #547 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 07:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
trbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gainesville FL USA
Posts: 10,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Googling:

Comcast CEO Brian L. Roberts Announces Project Infinity: Strategy to Deliver Exponentially More Content Choice on TV

from

a Google search

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
trbarry is offline  
post #548 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 08:14 PM
Member
 
johnsom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Corvallis, OR
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm also in Oregon and have to agree that they are way over compressing the HD content. The Red Hot Chili Peppers image in the original post is common of my HD service. It seems to be very selective as well. Some channels and some shows look great, no blocking, but others looked better on an over used VHS tape.

Unfortunately the feed for the locals isn't great either. I don't know where it is in the chain, but some of my local channels are unwatchable at times. It's real bummer that they are exploiting digital to carry more shopping channels, etc.

I have seriously been considering looking at DirecTV, but it sounds like they over compress too. Guess I will keep hoping for Fios.
johnsom is offline  
post #549 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 09:02 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 28,285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsom View Post

I'm also in Oregon and have to agree that they are way over compressing the HD content. The Red Hot Chili Peppers image in the original post is common of my HD service. It seems to be very selective as well. Some channels and some shows look great, no blocking, but others looked better on an over used VHS tape.

Unfortunately the feed for the locals isn't great either. I don't know where it is in the chain, but some of my local channels are unwatchable at times. It's real bummer that they are exploiting digital to carry more shopping channels, etc.

I have seriously been considering looking at DirecTV, but it sounds like they over compress too. Guess I will keep hoping for Fios.

I recommend you try and see DirecTV for yourself, some of the MLB games I watched today had stunning PQ.
Keenan is offline  
post #550 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 09:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chad473's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Comcast-Lancaster, PA
Posts: 2,269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
mpeg4 on directv looks much better than comcast these days. it's much more efficient. if I had the option where I live I'd be gone.

xbox live/PSN: Chad473
chad473 is offline  
post #551 of 2079 Old 03-31-2008, 10:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jkcheng122's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 30
no mention of quality improvement in that announcement by the comcast ceo...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jkcheng122 is offline  
post #552 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 05:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
muzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: MA. USA
Posts: 2,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yeah....
I love it when I go to the Guide on the 6200, move buttons, while the box is sitting there stuck doing nothing.....then all of the sudden it catches up like 20 seconds later and starts bouncing around..
On Demand? About 1/3 of the time it tells me it's not available right now- try later...or something like that.
Then I exit, try again, and it works...
I really love the "Channel will be available shortly" message, that go's over real well.....

As far as the crappy PQ....yep...I have the luxury of that too, I was complaining to them months ago regarding Blocking and stuff..


Quote:
Originally Posted by bidzer View Post

I understand the one coax cable supports tons of users, it's like an ethernet segment. Don't tell me your backbone is all fiber if there are limitations as to what you can deliver to me/my house as a service and signal. What good is having the bandwidth at the head end and not the latter.

Again, when the fiber glut was upon us, it could be had for cheap money. Comcast isn't exactly a small company either. The company is slow to adopt anything and want to maximize every single penny they can on their infrastructure and will make the consumer pay for it.

We as comcast customers pay a very high premium for their sevrice and the quality is terrible, from the bad signal, bad STB's, terrible On Demand interface, horrible dumbed down tivo, should I keep going????


I want MY Cigarettes, MINE Nurse Ratched!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
muzz is offline  
post #553 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 05:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burlington County NJ
Posts: 3,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
maxman is offline  
post #554 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 05:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jefbal99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 3,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Detroit got some new HD channels today...

3:1 is in full effect...

Quote:
Originally Posted by "BandiTT" View Post


Just did a rescan of Comcast QAM in Royal Oak.
I'm seeing three new HD channels:
64.1 Disney Channel HD (720p)
64.2 ABC Family HD (720p)
64.3 Science HD (1080i)

As far as I can tell they are not in the Comcast guide via the STB yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "rockstar_not" View Post

These showed up as QAM 8-1, 8-2, 8-3 for me last night (comcast royal oak as well)


It's time to give props to WLNS for the HD crawl generator!!!

Now we need WHTV to go HD and Lansing's CW to get a separate transmitter so it isn't a digital sub.
jefbal99 is offline  
post #555 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 06:40 AM
Senior Member
 
bidzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Muzz,

The list goes on and on with this company. Why can't they make on demand searchable without being intrusive to my viewing?? I have to enter a whole new system and search with an archaic menu system. What have they been doing with their capital?

I was watching HD content on demand last night and it was blocky as heck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

Yeah....
I love it when I go to the Guide on the 6200, move buttons, while the box is sitting there stuck doing nothing.....then all of the sudden it catches up like 20 seconds later and starts bouncing around..
On Demand? About 1/3 of the time it tells me it's not available right now- try later...or something like that.
Then I exit, try again, and it works...
I really love the "Channel will be available shortly" message, that go's over real well.....

As far as the crappy PQ....yep...I have the luxury of that too, I was complaining to them months ago regarding Blocking and stuff..

bidzer is offline  
post #556 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Someone asked for a comparison of Matrix on A&E last week.

Detail on Comcast's A&E feed remains good on all but the most intense scenes, but they do appear to be applying some sort of grain effect. The "grain effect" is seen on virtually every frame, but is more pronounced on some than others. This effect isn't necessarily bad -- some people like grain-- but it does make the Comcast picture different.

Since A&E is a 720p channel, I've posted full-resolution PNGs below rather than half-resolution shots. These shots were taken with VideoRedo instead of MPC with Dscaler5 IVTC because I am having a problem with 720p captures in that program.

Edit: Disregard the first two captures below because they are not of the same frame. Note the difference in the shell casings below the gun.

A&E on FiOS


A&E on Comcast


A&E on FiOS


A&E on Comcast


A&E on FiOS


A&E on Comcast

HDTV Recorder Comparison Chart | DTVPal DVR FAQ | New! TiVo Premiere (Series4) FAQ |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bfdtv is offline  
post #557 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:29 AM
Senior Member
 
HIPAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Only a video engineer or a hypercritical enthusiast can get excited about the differences between these latest images.

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
HIPAR is offline  
post #558 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jefbal99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 3,064
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The biggest thing i notice in those images is the color. Look at Neo's face/forehead in the first image. The color really pops on FIOS and is dull on Comcast. Same for Agent Smith in the second set of images.

It's time to give props to WLNS for the HD crawl generator!!!

Now we need WHTV to go HD and Lansing's CW to get a separate transmitter so it isn't a digital sub.
jefbal99 is offline  
post #559 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:35 AM
Member
 
JDrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That's just the way TiVos work. They record the original bitstream to disk. The DirecTivos, Tivo Series3, and TivoHD all work that way.

The TiVo also lacks the hardware necessary to do what you suggest. The ViXS XCode-2115 doesn't do HD transcoding or transrating like the other models in the series. That functionality was sacrificed for a second MP@ML (SD) encoder for analog channels. TiVo uses the Xcode as a CableCard receiver and MPEG-2 encoder for analog SD channels.

Perhaps that is true, but it conflicts with the story that the Vixs engineers were reporting at CES. They claimed that Tivo HD was one of the first design wins for their transrating/transcoding chip and it allowed them to acheive greater storage on the same HDD size.

I'm certainly not trying to defend comcast or tivo, I think your report is an excellent effort and I commend you for this work. I'd simply like to suggest the science would be better if critical variables were eliminated. My kids are told the same thing when they submit an entry to the science fair where they haven't eliminated the contribution of key variables. If all the files you have analyzed from either comcast or fios are from just one machine, that remains a contributing variable of unknown impact. The word of someone on a Tivo forum is not sufficient to determine the architecture of the circuitry anymore than the word of a salesman at CES.

Additional independent file captures would be an excellent start. You might also simply swap the two Tivo decks on the opposite service.
JDrider is offline  
post #560 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PaulGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

Only a video engineer or a hypercritical enthusiast can get excited about the differences between these latest images.

--- CHAS

Granted the differences are not that great with the latest pictures, by on a large screen set it really takes away from the HD experience. The question Comcast needs to address is if the prices for the two services are about the same and if FiOS is available why should a viewer stick with a lower quality service? That is why Comcast needs to bite the bullet and upgrade their service to have a picture quality equivalent to FiOS.

Also on this and other forums people who have switched ot FiOS have stated they are now much happier with their picture quality. They site specifics comparing their favorite programs and how much better their viewing experience is with FiOS. Is this due to compression, poor Comcast maintenance of their existing cable runs or other reasons I don't know, but these comments do have a tendency to influence their neighbors and some of it probably is factual.
PaulGo is offline  
post #561 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmallory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Essexville, MI
Posts: 621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post

Granted the differences are not that great with the latest pictures, by on a large screen set it really takes away from the HD experience. The question Comcast needs to address is if the prices for the two services are about the same and if FiOS is available why should a viewer stick with a lower quality service? That is why Comcast needs to bite the bullet and upgrade their service to have a picture quality equivalent to FiOS.

What's a large screen? 100" or Greater? 71" or greater? (And are we at recommended viewing distances?)

I was looking at the screenshots and on my monitor here at work (which isn't the greatest) I was hard pressed to find any differences, I would imagine that 720p channels (and their reduced bandwidth requirements versus 1080i) are more friendly to what Comcast is doing.

-- Jim
jmallory is online now  
post #562 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrider View Post

Perhaps that is true, but it conflicts with the story that the Vixs engineers were reporting at CES. They claimed that Tivo HD was one of the first design wins for their transrating/transcoding chip and it allowed them to acheive greater storage on the same HDD size.

Here's their press release, which describes it as a "single chip with dual channel MPEG2 encoding" and "excellent filtering capabilities to deal with poor analog broadcast."

As noted before, recordings from my local channels and ESPN/ESPN2 are the same on both providers. I also recorded Bounty Hunters from NGC-HD at the same time as another member (MikeSM) in a different market, but haven't had a chance to download that recording yet.

HDTV Recorder Comparison Chart | DTVPal DVR FAQ | New! TiVo Premiere (Series4) FAQ |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bfdtv is offline  
post #563 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmallory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Essexville, MI
Posts: 621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post

Granted the differences are not that great with the latest pictures, by on a large screen set it really takes away from the HD experience. The question Comcast needs to address is if the prices for the two services are about the same and if FiOS is available why should a viewer stick with a lower quality service? That is why Comcast needs to bite the bullet and upgrade their service to have a picture quality equivalent to FiOS.

Depends on the size and/or quality of the equipment the customer is using, the differences may not be apparent and how many customers is going to have Comcast and another provider in at the same time so they can make a proper comparison.

I wonder what the average size is...I would imagine in for a flat planel, average is between 32 and 42 inches with 720p/768p native resolution.

RPTVs are proabably 42 to 62, again probably with 720p native resolution.

Not everyone (in fact, I would guess very few) are going to be watching on 65" 1080p panels or 80"+ 1080p Front Projection units.

-- Jim
jmallory is online now  
post #564 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 07:59 AM
Senior Member
 
HIPAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post

.. The question Comcast needs to address is if the prices for the two services are about the same and if FiOS is available why should a viewer stick with a lower quality service? ..

If the results were as depicted in the original comparison, there's no question that I'd run for the phone. If I were an existing Comcast customer and the the results of the latest set of images were the norm, I might not notice there's a problem and find no need to change, especially if I were generally satisfied with the channel lineup, internet, etc.

If I were a new subscriber, I would certainly opt for FiOS being fully aware that cable is up against the stops.

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
HIPAR is offline  
post #565 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmallory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Essexville, MI
Posts: 621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

If the results were as depicted in the original comparison, there's no question that I'd run for the phone. If I were an existing Comcast customer and the the results of the latest set of images were the norm, I might not notice there's a problem and find no need to change, especially if I were generally satisfied with the channel lineup, internet, etc.

If I were a new subscriber, I would certainly opt for FiOS being fully aware that cable is up against the stops.

--- CHAS

The big question is, will the average consumer using average equipment, even notice a difference?

-- Jim
jmallory is online now  
post #566 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PaulGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmallory View Post

What's a large screen? 100" or Greater? 71" or greater? (And are we at recommended viewing distances?)

I was looking at the screenshots and on my monitor here at work (which isn't the greatest) I was hard pressed to find any differences, I would imagine that 720p channels (and their reduced bandwidth requirements versus 1080i) are more friendly to what Comcast is doing.

I was looking at the pictures on a 24" widescreen monitor and the difference could easily be seen. I have three large screen TVs. a 50" DLP a 61" DLP and a 67" dlp. And I view the programs at the recommended distance. Initially when Comcast had two INDemand channels (before Mojo) on my 61" DLP I experienced a "wow" factor especially when they broadcast the IMAX shows. I wish I could say that now.
PaulGo is offline  
post #567 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audiomagnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Western Colorado
Posts: 2,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't buy the "bitstarvation/macroblocking is only noticeable on huge screens" theory. I have an 80in FP, 50 in plasma and a 20 inch LCD PC monitor and it's equally annoying and visible on all three setups. And the size of the blocks dwarf the size of even a 720p pixel, so I don't buy into the "only noticeable on 1080p setup" theory either.

If you want to see macroblocking at it's absolute worst, try the opening sequence of "The Big Bang Theory." It's a complete mess, and probably visible on a 7 inch SD CRT.
audiomagnate is offline  
post #568 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 841
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomagnate View Post

If you want to see macroblocking at it's absolute worst, try the opening sequence of "The Big Bang Theory." It's a complete mess, and probably visible on a 7 inch SD CRT.

I was thinking that exact thing last night. Such a shame h.264 wasn't standardized a few years earlier, it's too late for OTA now. A quick fix would be to broadcast everything at 720p, but 1080i is a bigger number so it must be better
lobosrul is offline  
post #569 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:35 AM
Senior Member
 
HIPAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomagnate View Post

I don't buy the "bitstarvation/macroblocking is only noticeable on huge screens" theory. I have an 80in FP, 50 in plasma and a 20 inch LCD PC monitor and it's equally annoying and visible on all three setups. And the size of the blocks dwarf the size of even a 720p pixel, so I don't buy into the "only noticeable on 1080p setup" theory either.

If you want to see macroblocking at it's absolute worst, try the opening sequence of "The Big Bang Theory." It's a complete mess, and probably visible on a 7 inch SD CRT.

Finally someone who states things from a basic perspective. There are hundreds of discussions here arguing the merits of 1080p vs 1080i vs 720p and screen size vs viewing distance and 120 frames/sec and motion blur and ....

But what it ultimately boils down to is HD is defined by what you see and what you see in any HD regime is a compressed image. It's the size of those macroblocks the determines the image clarity.

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
HIPAR is offline  
post #570 of 2079 Old 04-01-2008, 08:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmallory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Essexville, MI
Posts: 621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I was specifically talking about the A&E samples above and I am not saying that it is only noticeable on bigger displays, what I am saying is that it will be "more noticeable" and potentionally "more objectionable" if you are looking with a larger display, especially if viewing distance remains constant.

And I still stand by original questions...

Will the average consumer notice? If noticed, will the average consumer find it objectionable? Keeping in mind the following things.

1.) The average consumer isn't going to measure bitrates (the only thing close to an objective measure) especially among different providers.
2.) The average consumer will have no good way to compare services in a controlled enviornment.
3.) The point of reference for the average consumer is going to be DVD or some other kind of NTSC video.

And ever since I have been in interested in home theatre, I have never considered cable or satellite suitable for critical viewing. Back in the days of analog cable and DirecTV, when I wanted to really watch a movie I viewed it on LaserDisc or a well mastered DVD which blew both cable and satellite out of the water. In the high-def world, a well mastered Blu-Ray destroys Cable, Over the Air, and Satellite.

-- Jim
jmallory is online now  
Closed Thread HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off