'24' - Season 7 on FOX HD - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2020 Old 02-12-2009, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

That's not the only thing that has been hijacked.

Can we please stay on topic and let this die?

I agree. I think it's disgusting.

Bringing serious sociopolitical debate into a 24 thread shouldn't be allowed!


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post #632 of 2020 Old 02-12-2009, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

Yes, the woman the producers chose to play Agent Walker is simply too hot to be an FBI agent. Not that I'm complaining about the eye candy, mind you!!

But one wonders how many FBI agents are actually that hot in reality?

Dana Scully, Clarice Sterling, Samantha Spade, Olivia Dunham, Rachel Young... Please apply with photo
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post #633 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

Yes, the woman the producers chose to play Agent Walker is simply too hot to be an FBI agent. Not that I'm complaining about the eye candy, mind you!!

But one wonders how many FBI agents are actually that hot in reality?

Is this for real?

Walker scares the crap out of me in terms of her looks. Very alien like.

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post #634 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 08:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Is this for real?

Walker scares the crap out of me in terms of her looks. Very alien like.


She has very impressive "hidden" assets. I'm hoping the jacket gets lost for the rest of the day and Ms. Bauer-lite sports one of her terrorist-foiling activities in a drenching downpour.

Besides I'm a sucker for red hair and freckles. She hits the trifecta with me.
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post #635 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 08:36 AM
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Don't forget Agent Dana Scully and Agent Olivia Dunham...all FBI!

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post #636 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rsambuca View Post

Dana Scully, Clarice Sterling, Samantha Spade, Olivia Dunham, Rachel Young... Please apply with photo

Also, Sarah Walker (Chuck), and Emily Prentiss and Jennifer Jareau (Criminal Mind).
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post #637 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

Can we please stay on topic and let this die?

Agreed. We should be focusing on things happening in 24, and the topics that the writers are clearly bringing to the forefront for discussion. Like torture.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

"Torture" may not even be the first thing or most effective thing on the list, but it certainly is still on the table when all else fails.

Ok, but should hiring psychics to read their minds also be on the table? It's arguable that both could be equally effective.

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I offer the testimony of two people who have engaged in methodical torture and who used information so obtained to great use.

So on one hand you offered the testimony of one person who was convicted for "apology of war crimes" and likely would have been convicted of war crimes if he had not already been amnestied. That's about on par with Saddam Hussein's justification for torture. There's also no independent evidence that the torture of was "obtained to great use" and actually independent research to the contrary.

You other example was even shakier. With apparently unattributable quotes of alleged actions.

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The usefulness or effectiveness of Jack's methods is, I believe, quite well-established. The only question is about their morality.

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Logically, you have assumed the burden of proving a negative, or at least a near negative.

Actually, I've been mainly trying to disprove that first statement you made. The usefulness or effectiveness of Jack's methods is "quite not well-established." There's a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. You've managed to offer two shaky accounts to support your claim. If that's all it takes for you to be grounded in your belief, so be it.

Ignore the accounts of the military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations and said torture wasn't effective because in his experience, when you beat up prisoners they just tell you anything to get you to stop. But believe the convict who was stripped of his rank that wants to justify and offer excuses for his war crimes.

Ignore the head of a combat interrogation team who says torture doesn't work despite the fact that he let one prisoner's friend die in front him to get intel. But believe the guy hiding behind a pseudonym who says torture works because he alleges he shot one prisoner's friend in front of him to get intel.
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post #638 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

Ok, but should hiring psychics to read their minds also be on the table? It's arguable that both could be equally effective.

Maybe they'll have a Lie to Me and 24 crossover episode someday. LTM has the same producers, I believe.
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post #639 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

Ok, but should hiring psychics to read their minds also be on the table? It's arguable that both could be equally effective.

Don't forget to include "Alec Baldwin sweet-talks the intel out of the prisoner" technique. That ought to be about on the same level, as well. Like I said, if all other more "friendly" and evidently more "effective" techniques have been exhausted to no result, feel free to break out with the weird $hit. There's nothing to lose at that point. I don't think anyone has advocated indiscriminately going to aggressive interrogation (or worse) just for the hell of it, in order to get the intel. You use whatever is going to achieve the desired result. If it doesn't involve aggressive techniques, more power to the process. If it does, then you do what you got to do.

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post #640 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:43 PM
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So we have the hunt for Dubaku and finding the mole or moles inside the White House and/or FBI as our lead stories.. when the President said to Jack "how could I trust you "?, Jack could have said " why don't you Netflix the past 6 seasons!" So far great season..

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post #641 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Don't forget to include "Alec Baldwin sweet-talks the intel out of the prisoner" technique. That ought to be about on the same level, as well. Like I said, if all other more "friendly" and evidently more "effective" techniques have been exhausted to no result, feel free to break out with the weird $hit. There's nothing to lose at that point. I don't think anyone has advocated indiscriminately going to aggressive interrogation (or worse) just for the hell of it, in order to get the intel. You use whatever is going to achieve the desired result. If it doesn't involve aggressive techniques, more power to the process. If it does, then you do what you got to do.

Wrong, you stand to lose the moral high ground.
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post #642 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by taxman48 View Post

Jack could have said " why don't you Netflix the past 6 seasons!" So far great season..

Hey, hey, heystay with the program hereI cracked that joke several torturous pages ago.

Larry

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post #643 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by spwace View Post

Wrong, you stand to lose the moral high ground.

What value is that in the full scope of the "world"? Zero-point-zero. The US is the "bad guy"/infidel/aggressor/meddler, no matter what they do, in that scenario, so it's zero-sum. Unfortunately, those who are so concerned with "moral high ground" are seemingly blind to the stuff that goes on beyond the US. All of a sudden, there is no avenue for disdain toward those who do not follow moral high ground. Therein, it is clear how much "moral high ground" counts for in the world...

That said, it returns to the consideration- how much is the intel worth? If it is not worth much or could be acquired elsewhere with less effort, then you don't invest too much to get it from that one prisoner. If it is of extreme value and not likely available via other sources, you use whatever it takes (which doesn't mean you automatically escalate to the worst you can imagine...you use whatever it takes, using the least effort and invasiveness).

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post #644 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

What value is that in the full scope of the "world"? Zero-point-zero. The US is the "bad guy"/infidel/aggressor/meddler, no matter what they do, in that scenario, so it's zero-sum. Unfortunately, those who are so concerned with "moral high ground" are seemingly blind to the stuff that goes on beyond the US. ).

Not at all. We're supposed to be better than them. Our system is supposed to be better than theirs. Civilized societies don't torture. That's what we keep trying to tell them. If they don't believe our way of life is superior in a moral, ethical, and judicial sense, then why would they want to emulate it? And why would they want to help us in our cause? We have a rare opportunity to try to re-build America's image abroad with both friends and potential friends thanks to this new well-publicized prohibition on torture. Relax; it's a good thing.

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Don't forget to include "Alec Baldwin sweet-talks the intel out of the prisoner" technique.

I'm sorry, but I must be missing how Alec Baldwin fits into this discussion. He's not only not on this show, he's not even on this network. And he's not involved with the U.S. government in an interrogation capacity either, that I'm aware. Perhaps you have other knowledge of his clandestine activities... Now Adam Baldwin, he might get enthused about doin' a little torturin'. Jayne Cobb sure would.
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post #645 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

So on one hand you offered the testimony of one person who was convicted for "apology of war crimes" and likely would have been convicted of war crimes if he had not already been amnestied. That's about on par with Saddam Hussein's justification for torture. There's also no independent evidence that the torture of was "obtained to great use" and actually independent research to the contrary.

"Apology of war crimes," a rather inventive (and invented?) European crime devised to punish an inconvenient memoir. Not only did he describe how, and how effectively, he used torture, he named the names of self-righteous politicians who approved such tactics at the time only to denounce them later, Socialist president Mitterrand the most prominent. So, my source risked, indeed, suffered, for what he wrote so you dismiss his testimony as false while embracing the testimony of US officers who risk nothing by denouncing torture and who risk a lot if they defend its usefulness and everything if they are found to have committed torture. Aren't all the pressures (except the determination to tell the truth -- usually deemed commendable) on the side of denying participation in and the effectiveness of torture?


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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

You other example was even shakier. With apparently unattributable quotes of alleged actions.

Here, read it yourself:

A Nasty Business by Bruce Hoffman

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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

Actually, I've been mainly trying to disprove that first statement you made. The usefulness or effectiveness of Jack's methods is "quite not well-established." There's a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. You've managed to offer two shaky accounts to support your claim. If that's all it takes for you to be grounded in your belief, so be it.

By your language, actions, and preferred citations you appear to be arguing that it never works. If your argument is otherwise, say so. No technique works all the time on everyone. It depends on the practitioner, the subject, the circumstances and the methods. You allude to a "fair amount of evidence to the contrary" but I am no longer certain what you mean -- evidence that torture doesn't work ever or doesn't work always?

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Originally Posted by O2C View Post

Ignore the accounts of the military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations and said torture wasn't effective because in his experience, when you beat up prisoners they just tell you anything to get you to stop. But believe the convict who was stripped of his rank that wants to justify and offer excuses for his war crimes.

Believe the retired general who, in his 80s, risked punishment to "excuse" crimes he had never been accused of due to amnesty and the fact that the public had no idea who he was or what he had done? Try being even half as cynical about the testimony of your own sources. It is entirely PC to deny ever having used torture (check), never having known any fellow officers who think it would be a good idea (check), and are sure that no one else could use it effectively (check). Of course, this is entirely contrary to the leftist meme that holds the US tortured its way all through Viet Nam but now it is convenient to believe the very officers who previously were the targets of leftist obloquy.

Maybe both sides are being honest about what they did and what their results were.

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Ignore the head of a combat interrogation team who says torture doesn't work despite the fact that he let one prisoner's friend die in front him to get intel. But believe the guy hiding behind a pseudonym who says torture works because he alleges he shot one prisoner's friend in front of him to get intel.

Since he denies ever applying torture presumably he didn't consider what he did to be torture, merely applying not-niceness. He refused to doing anything harsher (like shooting another VC in the head) and yet you take his actions as proof that someone else failed using just such harsher tactics.
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post #646 of 2020 Old 02-13-2009, 05:15 PM
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Not at all. We're supposed to be better than them. Our system is supposed to be better than theirs.

We are better than them. We do bother to do things better than them.

The real problem is a group of self-righteous activists who will find any/all reasons to frown upon anything we do while utterly dismissing/ignoring the far worse things others are doing out there. The verdict is already "in"- we are automatically doing it worse than anybody else, regardless of what we are actually doing, altogether. This is about self-hate ideology to somehow engender sympathy from the global community, rather than any accurate account of reality. "Everything" now counts under the umbrella term "torture" if the US is doing it (while nothing counts for any given s-hole abroad), hence we are then guilty of the worst offenses of torture across the world- that's the bizarro logic at work, here.

The reality is that the self-hate ideology will not generate any more "respect" abroad than w/o such an ideology. It's a cute idea, but pretty much grounded in nothing. People who have sworn hate for the US will continue to hate the US (and continue their own standards of torture, as it suits their purposes). If the supposed "torture" policy isn't a good enough reason, they simply move to another reason. The hate is constant for as long as America lives and breathes. That is simply the way it works.

Let's at least get that part straight before worrying about how bad and what counts as "torture". What it boils down to is that the people who are complaining about this are complaining, not because they detest all forms of torture (because evidently they are A-ok with any instances of it anywhere else in the world), they just hate the idea that the world will possibly look down upon the US for doing anything that remotely resembles compelling/coercing someone to give up information. The part they don't get, is that the world is hellbound to look down on us, period (because we are the US). It doesn't matter what we do, and catering to supposed grievances will achieve exactly zero-point-zero.

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post #647 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 07:56 AM
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Give it up, please. This stuff is totally OT.
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post #648 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 09:04 AM
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Give it up, please. This stuff is totally OT.

Really? Seems to me that the topic of torture is central to 24.
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post #649 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 10:57 AM
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Given 24's profound lack of realism, it puzzles me that anybody could take Jack Bauer and his enablers seriously enough to try to put their excesses in the context of the real world. These are just Ripping Tales, for heaven's sake, so why take them so seriously? Anyway, in the real world, Jack and his merry band would have probably all been dead in the first two hours of Season 1.
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post #650 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 11:38 AM
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Given 24's profound lack of realism, it puzzles me that anybody could take Jack Bauer and his enablers seriously enough to try to put their excesses in the context of the real world. These are just Ripping Tales, for heaven's sake, so why take them so seriously? Anyway, in the real world, Jack and his merry band would have probably all been dead in the first two hours of Season 1.

I would be happy to see these as Ripping Yarns but the critics refuse to.

We joke about Jack getting cross town with no traffic delays and then finding a parking place right in front of his destination but we don't insist it is never possible to do so. We recognize that the dramatic needs of the series require an exaggeration of Jack's driving and parking success. The critics seem to insist, however, that extreme interrogation methods (including torture) never be shown and especially never be shown to be successful. They cannot take it as we do Jack's driving.

For them it is like smoking -- must never show it and especially must never show a good guy smoking and actually enjoying it. Such things don't exist. There can't be any benefits, no pleasures, to smoking. Nor can there be any benefits, any successes, to torture. Smoking must never be pleasurable and torture must never be successful. The children might get ideas.
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post #651 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jebbbz View Post

I would be happy to see these as Ripping Yarns but the critics refuse to.

We joke about Jack getting cross town with no traffic delays and then finding a parking place right in front of his destination but we don't insist it is never possible to do so. We recognize that the dramatic needs of the series require an exaggeration of Jack's driving and parking success. The critics seem to insist, however, that extreme interrogation methods (including torture) never be shown and especially never be shown to be successful. They cannot take it as we do Jack's driving.

For them it is like smoking -- must never show it and especially must never show a good guy smoking and actually enjoying it. Such things don't exist. There can't be any benefits, no pleasures, to smoking. Nor can there be any benefits, any successes, to torture. Smoking must never be pleasurable and torture must never be successful. The children might get ideas.

I have no problem with the fictional torture on 24 and find it laughable that so many of the posters on this forum believe it works in the real world. Jack Bauer is as realistic as Superman. Anyone who doesn't understand that is living in a fantasy world.
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post #652 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 12:43 PM
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I would be happy to see these as Ripping Yarns but the critics refuse to.

We joke about Jack getting cross town with no traffic delays and then finding a parking place right in front of his destination but we don't insist it is never possible to do so. We recognize that the dramatic needs of the series require an exaggeration of Jack's driving and parking success. The critics seem to insist, however, that extreme interrogation methods (including torture) never be shown and especially never be shown to be successful. They cannot take it as we do Jack's driving.

For them it is like smoking -- must never show it and especially must never show a good guy smoking and actually enjoying it. Such things don't exist. There can't be any benefits, no pleasures, to smoking. Nor can there be any benefits, any successes, to torture. Smoking must never be pleasurable and torture must never be successful. The children might get ideas.

Well said!

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post #653 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 01:24 PM
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I have no problem with the fictional torture on 24 and find it laughable that so many of the posters on this forum believe it works in the real world. Jack Bauer is as realistic as Superman. Anyone who doesn't understand that is living in a fantasy world.

I don't know if it's effective and I don't care in the context of this thread. I've seen plenty of AVS threads ruined and even shut down by this kind of off topic indulgence. Perhaps next they can piss away several pages discussing the shootout in the most recent episode, and dissect how the bad guys, some with machine guns, don't make a single hit while Jack and gang take them out using handguns. Oh yeah, the First Husband took a shot, but after all, he was bound to a chair!
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post #654 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 03:18 PM
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Really? Seems to me that the topic of torture is central to 24.

This is true. Like several posters, I'd like to see it remain in the context of the fictional TV show and not bleed over into real life. As much as people want to give their opinion in hopes it will give someone a light-bulb moment, it just ain't gonna happen. Light-bulb moments don't occur when polar opposites are debating. If anything, it gives the opposite effect; it closes the mind to being open.

This will happen before polar opposites agree.

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post #655 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 05:09 PM
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Just started watching 24 last year and have been hooked since then. I have a gift to those drooling over Agent Walker. One of the other roles she played was on the daytime soap General Hospital.

You gotta love daytime TV

http://www.wiihotties.com/2009/01/12...e_wersching15/

http://www.wiihotties.com/2009/01/12...e_wersching16/

http://www.wiihotties.com/2009/01/12...e_wersching17/

http://www.wiihotties.com/2009/01/12...e_wersching18/


http://www.wiihotties.com/2009/01/12...e_wersching19/
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post #656 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 07:11 PM
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...As much as people want to give their opinion in hopes it will give someone a light-bulb moment, it just ain't gonna happen.

You are absolutely correct sir.










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post #657 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 07:57 PM
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Perhaps next they can piss away several pages discussing the shootout in the most recent episode, and dissect how the bad guys, some with machine guns, don't make a single hit

Actually I don't think any of the bad guys technically had machine guns. They were using submachine guns and assault rifles.

Of course legal terminology gives a different definition of machine gun.

Which term should be used? Please discuss.


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post #658 of 2020 Old 02-14-2009, 08:21 PM
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Guns are bad, hence, all guns are machine guns (and likewise banned from legal possession)! (I hope people pick up the analogy)

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post #659 of 2020 Old 02-15-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Weiner View Post

Just started watching 24 last year and have been hooked since then. I have a gift to those drooling over Agent Walker. One of the other roles she played was on the daytime soap General Hospital...

Hey Roger, you got any of those shots of the lady who plays the FBI agent on The Eleventh Hour.

.........

"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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post #660 of 2020 Old 02-15-2009, 10:45 AM
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Which term should be used? Please discuss.

Yes. By all means, please flog this speck into a pulp over several pages.
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