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post #91 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by POWERFUL View Post

Aren't we blurring the line between reality and 24 fiction here? A five years back every time I got one of my sporadic nosebleeds one of my housemates who saw it mentioned to me I had "the virus".

There was an impression that the TV show '24' was projecting the image that U.S. government officers routinely torture anybody they feel like, that it went on all the time. Whether it's true (or was) is irrelevant; the perception was out there because of the show. The producers felt the heat from that; it will be toned down this year. But torture is a part of '24's' DNA, so it won't go away completely. Expect the good guys to be more on the receiving end this year, I would guess. Of course, Jack Bauer's probably taken as much torture as he's dished out over the years, and 'Redemption' included such a scene as part of its calculated effort to paint Jack as martyr/messiah, lest we forget. That's where this season begins.

Of course, torture is not exclusively the province of '24', either. Anyone who's been keeping up with Showtime's superb drama 'Brotherhood' was witness to some serious torturin' in the series finale that was far more realistic, and disturbing, than anything '24' has yet dished out. It's a matter of perception. '24' is a live action cartoon, full of unrealistic "ticking time bomb" scenarios (at least once an episode, seems like) that most people, even those who find torture reprehensible and a betrayal of American ideals, would condone under such dire and imminent circumstances. But there can't be a perception out there that the real government uses it as a routine investigative tool, and that was the fear.

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The torture level may be reduced on 24, for other reasons previously stated; however, the statement above reflects the error I was trying to subtly point out before: torture is not tolerated as official US policy.

Not now, of course. But there has been a good bit of evidence unearthed to indicate it was not only tolerated, but condoned and actively encouraged all the way up to the Vice President's Office. The "isolated rogue element" defense never really did pass the smell test, and now we know of the CIA secret extraordinary rendition program, etc. All those rocks have not yet been overturned; FOI requests/reveals will shed further light on that issue as the months go by, I suspect. At any rate, any further discussion of it exceeds our mandate here. Suffice it to say that these sorts of things will be toned down this season on '24', and that Jack will likely receivith more punishment than he will givith given recent events in the real world. All's I'm saying is that maybe that's not such a bad thing. Jack will still be Jack: the baddest dude on the planet. He'll just kill 'em instead of torturing 'em. That's still okay, after all.
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post #92 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Palladin View Post

Yeah, the scene in which Colin tortured Kath in bed was absolutely horrific in scope. They couldn't have gotten away with anything even close to that on commercial TV.

That scene sorta' took the romance out of it, didn't it?
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post #93 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 12:47 PM
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Yeah, the scene in which Colin tortured Kath in bed was absolutely horrific in scope. They couldn't have gotten away with anything even close to that on commercial TV.

Brotherhood was indeed great TV, especially this season's episodes. It was so strong I could sometimes barely watch it. It's one of the best series I have seen on TV, in a class with Deadwood, which also lasted only three seasons.

A thousand pardons for continuing the thread hijack but I thought so highly of Brotherhood, I couldn't resist. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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post #94 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 12:56 PM
 
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Brotherhood was indeed great TV, especially this season's episodes. It was so strong I could sometimes barely watch it. It's one of the best series I have seen on TV, in a class with Deadwood, which also lasted only three seasons.

Agreed. Those who didn't watch it, and they are legion, missed something really special. But it will make a nice 29-hour DVD set, which is probably the best way to watch any serialized TV show anyways.
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post #95 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 01:22 PM
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Brotherhood was indeed great TV, especially this season's episodes. It was so strong I could sometimes barely watch it. It's one of the best series I have seen on TV, in a class with Deadwood, which also lasted only three seasons.

A thousand pardons for continuing the thread hijack but I thought so highly of Brotherhood, I couldn't resist. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Uh-uh, not so fast. Brotherhood, along with a couple of others, will be remembered for having advanced what I tend to refer to as 'the inverted ending'. Good isn't really good, Bad isn't really bad, and all of the characters are pretty fk'ed up and in need of a 'good shrink' (which, at the very least, is a contradiction in terms). Someday this 'golden age' of television will be remembered as the harbinger of the ambiguous era (of which Mad Men is also an excellent example).

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post #96 of 2020 Old 01-06-2009, 04:28 PM
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The torture in 24 is the "ticking bomb" scenario that has been discussed a lot. The vast majority of people support using any means necessary in that scenario, including torture.

If someone has info on a nuclear bomb that's about to go off, I certainly support shooting him in the knee or anything else that gets the info to save hundreds of thousands of people.

Atlas just shrugged!
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post #97 of 2020 Old 01-07-2009, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

But it will make a nice 29-hour DVD set, which is probably the best way to watch any serialized TV show anyways.

DVDs are a great way to watch a serialized TV show. I bought the DVDs of the first 5 seasons of 24 and enjoyed them hugely. I have not bought the Season 6 discs, though, for reasons that are probably obvious to most of the posters here who watched the whole series.
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post #98 of 2020 Old 01-07-2009, 06:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Palladin View Post

Uh-uh, not so fast. Brotherhood, along with a couple of others, will be remembered for having advanced what I tend to refer to as 'the inverted ending'. Good isn't really good, Bad isn't really bad, and all of the characters are pretty fk'ed up and in need of a 'good shrink' (which, at the very least, is a contradiction in terms). Someday this 'golden age' of television will be remembered as the harbinger of the ambiguous era (of which Mad Men is also an excellent example).

O.K. GW, back to the RSP

But that's not a bad thing, is it? The age of the anti-hero has given us some pretty compelling television. Cardboard cut-outs just don't cut it anymore. Even Jack Bauer is a man torn between the man he'd like to be and the man he must be. So was Tony Soprano. So was Al Swearingen. So were Tommy and Michael Caffee, Dexter Morgan, Vic Mackey. And the list goes on. Nobody is completely good or completely bad, or they don't make compelling, identifiable characters. As James Woods once said, even killers ain't killing all the time; they've got to pick up their laundry, go to the dentist, visit the grocery store, etc. Then, like the rest of us, they pull on their work duds and go do their jobs.
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post #99 of 2020 Old 01-07-2009, 07:33 AM
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Interesting observations, GrouchoDude (re: anti-heroes), but I am not sure all your examples are valid. Al Swearingen, for example, seemed to be just who he wanted to be. He was not "the man he must be."

An example I'd add is Bruce Wayne, particularly as portrayed in the Nolan "Batman" movies.

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post #100 of 2020 Old 01-07-2009, 08:39 AM
 
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Interesting observations, GrouchoDude (re: anti-heroes), but I am not sure all your examples are valid. Al Swearingen, for example, seemed to be just who he wanted to be. He was not "the man he must be."

Yeah, I see your point, and I did give Al a second thought before I added him to the list (plus, I was also referencing gwsat's post a little ways back and I know how much he loved 'Deadwood' ). But if you think about it, even Al, in his own way, had a certain moral code (much like 'Brotherhood's' Michael Caffee) and wanted badly to see Deadwood succeed as a town, for reasons that were not altogether selfish. And he did have the occasional tender #*%!* moment.
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post #101 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 07:58 AM
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Speaking of a show filled with ambiguous characters, Damages certainly fills the bill. From the clever but deviously dishonest Patty Hewes and her equally sociopathic henchwoman, Ellen Parsons, to just about every other principal character in the serious, they are, mostly, accomplished but universally crooked.
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post #102 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 08:41 AM
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...they are, mostly, accomplished but universally crooked.

You raise an interesting point, gwsat: Why do we not have more shows about congresspersons?

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post #103 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Speaking of a show filled with ambiguous characters, Damages certainly fills the bill. From the clever but deviously dishonest Patty Hewes and her equally sociopathic henchwoman, Ellen Parsons, to just about every other principal character in the serious, they are, mostly, accomplished but universally crooked.

Do you watch the show? Ellen Parsons a henchwoman? Seriously? She's the moral compass of the show...

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post #104 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 12:24 PM
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Do you watch the show? Ellen Parsons a henchwoman? Seriously? She's the moral compass of the show...

Not only do I watch it, I watched Season 1 twice. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.
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post #105 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 02:12 PM
 
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Not only do I watch it, I watched Season 1 twice. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

I have to agree with lax on this one, gwsat. Ellen a sociopathic henchman?! I don't see how you could possibly have gotten that from her character in S-1; that's completely off-base. Ellen never tried to kill anyone, like Patty did (um...her!). Patty had a henchman all right, but it wasn't Ellen, it was the old man (her uncle?). Ellen was all about doing the right thing while she was sucked ever deeper into Patty's dark world. Are you sure it was 'Damages' you watched? Better check the box again.
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post #106 of 2020 Old 01-08-2009, 06:13 PM
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Sociopathic may be too strong a word to describe Ellen. Actually, she is a slave to her ambitions and her "moral compass" seems to point in whatever direction it needs to serve those ambitions. She certainly is not yet as cynical as Patty but she is well on her way. I'm sorry that you guys see it differently than I do but I'm sure we can all live with those differences.
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post #107 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 05:13 AM
 
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Sociopathic may be too strong a word to describe Ellen. Actually, she is a slave to her ambitions and her "moral compass" seems to point in whatever direction it needs to serve those ambitions. She certainly is not yet as cynical as Patty but she is well on her way. I'm sorry that you guys see it differently than I do but I'm sure we can all live with those differences.

There you go. That's a more accurate description of Ellen, IMO. She's an interesting character, for sure, although there are those (Alessandra Stanley of The NYTimes for one) who don't think Rose Byrne has the acting chops to go toe-to-thespianic toe with the other superstars on that show.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread; Jack Bauer will tolerate no digression from his thread, dammit! Don't tase me Jack!
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post #108 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 06:18 AM
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Get em, Jack! Fore!

I can't believe a golfer like myself actually said four in my post (corrected) when its obviously, fore. I think Jack would seriously torture me for that divot.

I'm always amazed when and where the revelation comes to me that I made a mistake of various proportions (no comments from the peanut gallery, please) when posting on the Internet. I was engrossed in a movie the other night when out of the blue it hit me that I wrote four, instead of fore. All I could do at the time was shake my head and moan. I can be doing any number of projects when the intelligence' switch is turned on and I make a frantic attempt to get to the computer as fast as I can to try and save face. It's so embarrassing to make such simple mistakes.
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post #109 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 06:31 AM
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But that's not a bad thing, is it? The age of the anti-hero has given us some pretty compelling television. Cardboard cut-outs just don't cut it anymore. Even Jack Bauer is a man torn between the man he'd like to be and the man he must be. So was Tony Soprano. So was Al Swearingen. So were Tommy and Michael Caffee, Dexter Morgan, Vic Mackey. And the list goes on. Nobody is completely good or completely bad, or they don't make compelling, identifiable characters. As James Woods once said, even killers ain't killing all the time; they've got to pick up their laundry, go to the dentist, visit the grocery store, etc. Then, like the rest of us, they pull on their work duds and go do their jobs.

Uhhh, Grouchodude, afraid you took a little bit of a left turn and Gummo'ed up the works slightly on where I was going with this, so let me be a little more precise. I generally tend to prefer 'inverted endings' and antiheroes. Hell, who do you think was the impetus behind Nicholson's great chicken slalad sandwich routine in 'Five Easy Pieces'? The problem arises when it becomes the kick-off for a trend, and what was once novel again becomes the predictable, because everyone is following suit. God knows how many knockoffs we would have had of The Soprano's finale, if Chase hadn't completely sucker-punched the competition (and I'm one of those who ended up loving that final sequence after I got over the shock). What it boils down to is Syndrome's accurate assessment in The Incredibles. 'And when everyone's super...no one will be'.

Change is good, but not when everybody tends to follow suit, and unfortunately, that is often an apt description of what takes place in Hollywood. Its not the side of the coin itself, its how often that same side comes up when the coin gets flipped.

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post #110 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 07:09 AM
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My 15 year old son claims that he saw "Tony" (back from the dead) in a preview of the new season last night. I wasn't home and didn't see it. Is this true?

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post #111 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 07:27 AM
 
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My 15 year old son claims that he saw "Tony" (back from the dead) in a preview of the new season last night. I wasn't home and didn't see it. Is this true?

Verily, it is true. Thus quotith the scripture:
And in the days of the Seventh Season, Tony Almeda rose from the dead and walkith again amongst the living, doing battle with Jack (apparently - yahoo!). For the "silent clock" was not heard. Verily, we shoulda' seen it coming.
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post #112 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 08:28 AM
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Verily, it is true. Thus quotith the scripture:
And in the days of the Seventh Season, Tony Almeda rose from the dead and walkith again amongst the living, doing battle with Jack (apparently - yahoo!). For the "silent clock" was not heard. Verily, we shoulda' seen it coming.

Given my druthers, if someone HAD to come back from the dead, I would have preferred it be Nina.

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post #113 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 09:04 AM
 
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Given my druthers, if someone HAD to come back from the dead, I would have preferred it be Nina.

Oh yeah! Greatest '24' villain ever! Well, after further consideration, maybe that title should go to super-hot, nakedness-prone, lesbian assassin Mandy, as Aliens pointed out to us a few pages back. Gads, I hope they find a way to bring her back...
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post #114 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 09:49 AM
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Oh yeah! Greatest '24' villain ever! Well, after further consideration, maybe that title should go to super-hot, nakedness-prone, lesbian assassin Mandy, as Aliens pointed out to us a few pages back. Gads, I hope they find a way to bring her back...

Now wait a second. If we're talkin' hottest babe ever on 24, than Mandy is an unquestionable lock, and that includes Jack's daughter who I always considered overrated. Nina wasn't as hot, but was extremely interesting in her own clothed way.

The thing I continue to find interesting about the 24 cast, is how many made their way over from HBO , The Larry Sanders Show ( Penny Johnson, Janeane Garofalo, Mary Rajskub, (who took over for Janeane when she left the show) , & from the L word (Mandy).

Similarly as I noted earlier in this thread, virtually the entire cast from 'Robocop' has or will appear(ed) on 24, except Nancy Allen. Is there a Grazer connection here or what?

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post #115 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 12:09 PM
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There you go. That's a more accurate description of Ellen, IMO. She's an interesting character, for sure, although there are those (Alessandra Stanley of The NYTimes for one) who don't think Rose Byrne has the acting chops to go toe-to-thespianic toe with the other superstars on that show.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread; Jack Bauer will tolerate no digression from his thread, dammit! Don't tase me Jack!

I have come to like Rose Byrne, in no little part because of how gorgeous she is. She has that willowy, delicate Audrey Hepburn thing going for her and wears clothes almost as well. When it comes to acting, however, the toweringly powerful Glenn Close is bound to make any costar seem inferior by comparison. Still, I thought that Byrne was just fine last season and was certainly up to her role.

As interesting as this Damages diversion was, I agree that its time to refocus on crazy Jack Bauer, who, like Ellen, seems to be a slave to, if not his ambitions, then to his sense of honor. Jack (and maybe Ellen, too) doesn't get mad, he gets even.

I really hope that 24 returns to form this season because I thought that it slipped significantly last season.
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post #116 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 01:14 PM
 
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If indeed absence makes the heart grow fonder, I'm thinking that '24' will score some big numbers during next week's premiere. You know AI will just ton it (let the annual karaoke-fest begin! And crush everything in its path. WhooHoo). So in an era of tightening advertising budgets, FOX may be the only one sitting pretty right now.
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post #117 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 02:05 PM
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I agree that a lot of folks are probably looking forward keenly to the new 24 season because of its long absence. Although I hate reality shows in all their permutations, I made the mistake of letting my daughter talk me into watching AI. I became addicted and watched them all last year and the two years before. But I am clean and sober again, so I have cancelled my AI season pass. Never again!
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post #118 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 04:03 PM
 
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I agree that a lot of folks are probably looking forward keenly to the new 24 season because of its long absence. Although I hate reality shows in all their permutations, I made the mistake of letting my daughter talk me into watching AI. I became addicted and watched them all last year and the two years before. But I am clean and sober again, so I have cancelled my AI season pass. Never again!

The first step on the road to recovery is to admit you have a problem. And proud of you are all of us.
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post #119 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Palladin View Post

Now wait a second. If we're talkin' hottest babe ever on 24, than Mandy is an unquestionable lock, and that includes Jack's daughter who I always considered overrated. Nina wasn't as hot, but was extremely interesting in her own clothed way.

The thing I continue to find interesting about the 24 cast, is how many made their way over from HBO , The Larry Sanders Show ( Penny Johnson, Janeane Garofalo, Mary Rajskub, (who took over for Janeane when she left the show) , & from the L word (Mandy).

Similarly as I noted earlier in this thread, virtually the entire cast from 'Robocop' has or will appear(ed) on 24, except Nancy Allen. Is there a Grazer connection here or what?

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Can you either provide the actresses real name or show a picture for proof?
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post #120 of 2020 Old 01-09-2009, 07:44 PM
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Can you either provide the actresses real name or show a picture for proof?

http://www.beyondhollywood.com/girlsof24/?p=8

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