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post #2251 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

For a really weird twist, consider...

They never actually showed how "Peter" replaced the President. By the time "Sylar" as Nathan replaces that other guy and follows the entourage, "Peter" is already in place. Similarly, they chose not to show "Sylar" kill the guy he replaced.

So... it is not outside the realm of possibility that the whole thing did not go down as we think.

What if... Peter was Nathan, to get to the entourage and replaced Nathan's friend after a quick explanation. Meanwhile, Sylar had already replaced the President. When "Peter" says "Bet you're surprised I took that one" he *could* be talking about the syringe...

So... What we could have is Sylar masquerading now as Peter... and Peter mindwiped to think he was Sylar who is now Nathan!

Ok, probably not what happened... but I can't think of anything they actually showed that makes it impossible. The fact that they didn't show either replacement actually happen leaves the door open for that switcheroo.

They never showed it, but they were standing there with that guy and telling him they needed to listen to them. So I took it that is when they decided on their plan.

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post #2252 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

I wonder if they keep changing the future, or if certain "prophesies" are still going to occur? We still haven't seen: Hiro fighting Ando, How Peter gets his scar, how Hiro becomes a badass, and what ever happened to that Irish girl that Peter left in the future?

We did see how Peter got his scar, but you've got a point with all the other stuff. I've always been particularly annoyed by the fact that Hiro has not progressed to the "future" Hiro revealed in Season One. At the end of Season 3 he's pretty much exactly the same as in the beginning of Season 1. The writers are clearly writing the story as they go, changing their minds along the way. They probably decided at some point that they liked the Hiro character just as he was, so they scrapped the idea of him becoming "badass" Hiro.
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post #2253 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 12:42 PM
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I don't buy that. She as standing there talking to him for a few seconds first as he was Sylar. His back to her. His hair VERY thick and dark and before her eyes the back of his head changes to short, not as dark hair. She couldn't of missed that.

Honestly, this was probably just a timing screw up by the editors. The CGI of Sylar changing to Nathan was probably supposed to occur when the secretary knocked on the door, not after she had already walked in.
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post #2254 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 12:51 PM
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If vfxproducer is still reading this thread and hasn't bolted with his team to take a much-deserved vacation (love it or hate it "Heroes" consistently delivers excellent special effect sequences) I'd love for him to tell us how, how long it took and how hard/easy it was to do the 'Tracy water' regenerating scene. We've come a long way from the days when Nickelodeon's "The Secret World of Alex Mack" did water morphing of a whole puddle (i.e. bargain-basement versions of the 'liquid metal' effects from "Terminator 2") on a weekly cable TV series. When Tracy was coming back together (with her derriere conviniently off-camera by a frame or two ) I could actually make out individual water particles on my HDTV as her being was reshaping into human form. I'm not crazy to see Tracy come back (hate her character) but, as with her 'ice' scene a few weeks back, that water-regenerating scene left my mouth wide open in utter amazement that I was seeing this on a free network TV show. That sequence alone could have financed a dozen Sci-Fi Channel Saturday night flicks, and justifies (but not excuse) the 'Claire peeping' non-fight fight between Sylar, Nathan and Peter. All the SFX money for this episode (or at least a good deal of it) not spent on Sylar's constant morphings went into that water SFX sequence.

As for the ratings, from Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the HDTV Programming page:

Nielsen Overnights
'Heroes,' 'Chuck': Dramatic seasons, typical finale
From James Hibberd's Hollywood Reporter 'Live Feed' Blog - April 28, 2009

NBC's sci-fi duo of Chuck and Heroes concluded their seasons with on-par performances Monday night, with both shows in line with their recent airings and placing last in their respective hours.

The two dramas have had a heavily publicized rough time this year. The third round of Heroes starting strong, then dropped alarmingly. Season two of Chuck has been a more steady performer, but it started its run with unremarkable numbers. Both shows enjoyed ratings spikes after they returned from their midseason breaks only to fall into series lows (see Heroes and Chuck full-season charts below).

NBC has said Heroes will return next fall and has not yet announced a decision on Chuck.

Fox won Monday with on-par House (11.4 million viewers, 4.5 preliminary adults 18-49 rating, winning its hour) and 24 (10.6 million, 3.4).

CBS comedies and a series-low CSI Miami (12 million, 3.3) all declined from their last all-original airings two weeks ago, down 7% on average, but the network still topped the 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. hours: Big Bang Theory (9.3 million, 3.4), How I Met Your Mother (8.9 million, 3.7), Two and a Half Men (14.1 million, 4.9) and Rules of Engagement (11.3 million, 3.9).

ABC experienced similar slight drops, with Dancing With the Stars (19.1 million, 4.3) and Surviving Suburbia (9.9 million, 2.4) falling, though Castle (8.4 million, 2.1) was up a couple of tenths. NBC was in fourth place with Chuck (6.1 million, 2.3), Heroes (6.4 million, 3.0) and Medium (6.7 million, 2.2). The CW's Gossip Girl (2 million, 1.0) and One Tree Hill (2.2 million, 1.1) fell.

Below are live-plus-same-day ratings for Heroes and Chuck. Note all these numbers climb significantly when DVR data is added, though the overall season trend should look about the same.

Here's the Heroes season three chart, which seems to be somehow tied to the S&P 500... [click on link below to see "Heroes" and "Chuck" ratings charts]

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/04/heroe...e-finales.html
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post #2255 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RAVEN56706 View Post

What i am pissed off is the whole dilemma that they are in... How about just erasing sylars thoughts and once he does the thing, kill him. why keep him alive? for the love of god, the guy cant be killed. get rid of him now while you still can... but they keep him alive. Then freaking ICe girl is back.

argghhh i will keep on watching but this was just stupid.

You gave yourself the answer. He can't be killed, so how were they supposed to kill him? They clearly showed in this episode that the spot behind his head no longer kills him, so he appears to be invulnerable right now.

Sure there are other ways to dispose of him, but this is television, they went for the most dramatic way to do it. Frankly, I like it. It will be interesting to see Peter, their mom, etc, become scared of him as little bits of Sylar squeeze their way out, like with the clock tonight.

I am actually going to give myself a metaphorical mind wipe and forget seasons 2-most of 3 existed. I am going into season 4 with a clean slate, hoping that an entire off season of Fuller being part of the team again will help the show come back strong.
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post #2256 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 02:17 PM
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What bothers me as much as anything is not only that they are inconsistent... but they are inconsistently inconsistent!

They stab Sylar in the back of the head... he doesn't die, and they have a nice-continuity-driven reveal that he consciously used his new morphing power to move it. That's actually an example of good writing, to incorporate known continuity AND something new in a way that is believable and also allows the element of surprise of thinking he was killed, but then not.

This is what I wanted to see with Nathan & Claire-blood... They should have tried to bring Nathan back to life... and either it works OR to serve the Sylar-mindwiped-as-Nathan story, it could be determined that Claire-blood only works once on someone that doesn't have that natural ability... so Nathan already got Adam blood... Noah already got Claire blood... so next time death=real for both of them. They could then follow the rest of the story as they did it, and not leave the "what the" loophole that everyone would be asking about.

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post #2257 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 03:37 PM
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Ok, so I watched patiently all season, waiting for things to improve. Even with the return of the original show runner, they just never clicked. They never seem to deliver the goods when it was clearly time to do so.

For example...Season 1 finale. The 'showdown' with Sylar was VERY LAME. We were expecting apocalyptic but it was only ho hum.

Season 2 finale when Peter fights his friends. ho hum again! The entire SEASON had been building up to it, and nada. Just a few punches here and there. Even the future Peter Vs future Sylar fight was never actually shown.

Now here's Sylar Vs Peter and Nathan. They DON'T SHOW THE FIGHT?! How is Claire peeking through a door while all the scary sounds and lights are flashing even remotely interesting or dramatic? It's as though they decided they didn't have the $$ to do it right so they went the an 'artistic' version. Ugh.

This show had so much potential and they keeping pissing it away with poor writing and poor Executive decisions.

Taking away Peter's powers was a mistake. For the love of mercy, let the super heroes be SUPER heroes and get their powers on. That's what we signed up to see. Im great with character development, but on this show that's turned in the 'motivation of the week' that is forgotten as soon as the next ep is aired. And i certainly don't mind building up to a climax as long as they deliver on said climax. And do date they haven't. Sigh

For all that i'll still be watching next season...I'm a geek and I have hope they can turn things around.

I'm no expert....so your mileage may vary
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post #2258 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Iteki View Post

Now here's Sylar Vs Peter and Nathan. They DON'T SHOW THE FIGHT?!

To be honest, it really shouldn't have even been a "fight." The second that Peter and Nathan stepped through the door, Sylar could have grabbed them with his telekinesis power and slit both of their throats simultaneously and that would have been the end of it.

The show is caught in a Catch 22 right now. It doesn't have high enough ratings to justify a huge budget, which is needed for the special effects that are required to show off superpowers. However, without any demonstration of superpowers in a superhero show, fans stop watching because it becomes lame. So the ratings get worse, then the budget is cut some more, then the story suffers even more, then more people stop watching, and on and on and on.
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post #2259 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 04:24 PM
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Did I miss something - since when could Sylar fly?
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post #2260 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

Did I miss something - since when could Sylar fly?

That was addressed earlier. We **think** he was just using his telekenises to move himself around....not really flying.

I am going to give it another 1/2 season or so. I still have some hope Fuller can turn it around. It's just such a mess that the limited number of eps he was involved in this season is just not enough time to clean it up. I still hope he is able to get it back on track, but really....it's been hemorraging viewers so much this season it's probably too late, even if the show somehow does get better.
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post #2261 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

If vfxproducer is still reading this thread and hasn't bolted with his team to take a much-deserved vacation (love it or hate it "Heroes" consistently delivers excellent special effect sequences) I'd love for him to tell us how, how long it took and how hard/easy it was to do the 'Tracy water' regenerating scene.

I just got back from vacation. We finished the season finale a little over a week ago, and within hours of turning over the final shots I was on a plane headed for a much needed rest. Sadly, I'm back to the grind today.

To answer your question, it took 4 artists, working on various aspects of the shot a total about about 23 man-days of work. We hired a specialty company to photogaph and make a generic 3D model of Ali Larter, and then on our end we had an artist who did the 3D animation of the moving puddle on the floor, an artist who detailed out the model of Ali and did the 3D animation of the water bubbling up and forming the shape of Ali's body, and a compositor who put all of that together with the real photographic plates of Ali in the room. About 4 to 5 days of that was just R&D with figuring out what was the best, most efficient way to create the 3D water animation, knowing it will be something we will have to repeatedly match and recreate next season.

It was definately the most complex shot in the episode, and probably in the top ten most complex shots so far in the series. There were 69 other visual effects in the episode, ranging from Sylar's morphing to Hiro's frozen time sequence and the broken blood vessel in Hiro's eye, to the 3D animation of Peter and Nathan flying at Sylar, to a lot of wire removal on Danko. But yeah, I'm pretty proud of the artists who did the Tracy/water shot.
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post #2262 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 04:39 PM
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vfxproducer - I always appreciate how much work you guys put in. The above is especially interesting, because the special effect was great for TV. While many viewers may not appreciate it, it's interesting how much work it still is to do something like that literally 20 years after I was first amazed by the work done in The Abyss.

Hopefully you don't take criticism of the show as criticism of the work you guys do. I've never had any problems with the sfx work....well maybe a couple of the flying sequences with Nathan
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post #2263 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mproper View Post

vfxproducer - i always appreciate how much work you guys put in. The above is especially interesting, because the special effect was great for tv. While many viewers may not appreciate it, it's interesting how much work it still is to do something like that literally 20 years after i was first amazed by the work done in the abyss.

Hopefully you don't take criticism of the show as criticism of the work you guys do. I've never had any problems with the sfx work

+1

I'm no expert....so your mileage may vary
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post #2264 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by t0x View Post

You gave yourself the answer. He can't be killed, so how were they supposed to kill him? They clearly showed in this episode that the spot behind his head no longer kills him, so he appears to be invulnerable right now.

Kill it with fire! Seriously, cut Sylar up into pieces and burn the remains. I don't think there would be any coming back from that. I don't think each piece of Sylar would grow into a new person. He's not an earthworm, after all.
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post #2265 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 07:53 PM
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For example...Season 1 finale. The 'showdown' with Sylar was VERY LAME. We were expecting apocalyptic but it was only ho hum.

The S1 finale is still my favorite.

The only people expecting an apocalypse were those who were expecting Heroes to be X-Men on TV.

Really, I thought it was just about perfect.

The S2 finale was as tedious as the rest of S2, and the S3 finale was… OK.

As far as "future Hiro" goes, IMHO part of the point of the show is many of the "future" characters no longer exist because our characters have changed the timeline, preventing the tragedies that created them.

Time travel always has that paradox.

How long before someone figures out the way to stop Sylar is to go back in time and take him out as a child before his powers manifested?
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post #2266 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 08:18 PM
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don't really understand what the point is about whether or not Sylar can be killed... it is irrelevant as he's a series regular and will be as long as he's popular. the only thing that cam kill him are the fans. do you think the writers are in the room thinking 'damn i wish we could kill Sylar but he's just too powerful'?

if the actor turned out to be a racist or pedophile or drug addict (well maybe not the last one these days), he'd be killed off just like THAT. maybe Peter's somehow-not-dead father shows up with a power absorb or better yet, Sylar's father's father. or a Sylar from another dimension/time comes to kill him and goes back to his own dimension/time. or Sylar realizes his own psychosis and finally decides to kill himself knowing he'll never be whole. or HRG finally does it. whatever.
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post #2267 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 08:56 PM
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I thought this season finale was good until the part about "Saving" Nathan. I didn't even follow it at first until it happened, because it seems like a total stretch of Parkman's powers. Plus it's quite lame.

But not nearly as lame as having Ali Larter back for next season, as shown in the Volume preview at the end. Ugh.
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post #2268 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 09:53 PM
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what's really funny is she's back as water mutant that's drowning people instead of freezing them...completely different power again LOL

thread closed
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post #2269 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pappy97 View Post

I thought this season finale was good until the part about "Saving" Nathan. I didn't even follow it at first until it happened, because it seems like a total stretch of Parkman's powers. Plus it's quite lame.

But not nearly as lame as having Ali Larter back for next season, as shown in the Volume preview at the end. Ugh.

Personally I didnt ahve that much issue with what they did with Parkmans character. I just figured it was was an offshoot of sorts of his ability to trap people within thier own minds. All he did was trap the Sylar personality within the mind, its obviously not totally wipped, it just needs to be relased from its current binds. His takeover of Nathans personality was already forshadoed when Syler said he was going to do it.

As far as Ali, that was almost an easy tell, again didnt bother me as much as she could freeze water, now she is able to morph\\control herself with water.

Still think the show is good entertainment here and there, Although I do agre with the person who said they could have revived the real Nathan with Clair's blood.

Oh well, will still watch when\\if it comes back next season...
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post #2270 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 10:59 PM
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Cremate Sylar and scatter the ashes and call it a day.
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post #2271 of 2358 Old 04-28-2009, 11:05 PM
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don't really understand what the point is about whether or not Sylar can be killed... it is irrelevant as he's a series regular and will be as long as he's popular.

I suppose if the star trek movie is popular enough theoretically it could prompt Zachary Quinto to get out of his contract for this show.
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post #2272 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 05:08 AM
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what's really funny is she's back as water mutant that's drowning people instead of freezing them...completely different power again LOL

Unless she is the last of the triplets. But then again she may have "evolved" I for one can't wait to see more.
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post #2273 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 05:49 AM
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i understand the reasoning that sylar wasnt killed off but hell.. chop him up... get suresh and find the spot...

not sure how they will continue this but i am sticking through...

i think they are building up the battle between peter and sylar..

but one thing is great to know, fuller is bringing the show back to the basics... their regular lives

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post #2274 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 07:54 AM
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another take on peters power could be that he can only take 1 persons ability at at time, not just 1 abilty, most people have 1 so thats how we see it, but if someone has multi abilities, then maybe he absorbs them all.

something another board said about sylar flying is that we never saw the entire fight, so maybe he was in contact enough with nathan to take his power the empathatic way. I dont really buy it, but whatever. I"d think taking powers that way would take more concentration.

im just curious to what went thru new nathans head the first time he tried to fly and couldnt, cause like you all say, i didn't think sylar had that power.

on another note, i've been rewatching season 1 off and on and just saw the few episodes around peter saving the cheerleader and the first quinto episodes, 6 months ago, and his capture and its amazing how good the show was back then compared to now.
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post #2275 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 08:01 AM
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im just curious to what went thru new nathans head the first time he tried to fly and couldnt, cause like you all say, i didn't think sylar had that power.

This is just my opinion of course, and we won't really know the answer until next season, but I'd think Nathan/Sylar would be able to fly. Sylar's abiility is to understand a power or ability and apply it to his own DNA, if he truly believes that he is Nathan, than Nathan's power should come naturally to him, but he wouldn't have access to any of his other powers, simply because he doesn't know that he has them.

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post #2276 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 08:02 AM
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Sylar does not need to kill to take an ability. So when he had Nathan out he could have taken it then. Then again it would have been Tk and he was just moving up and down.

The only thing I had an issue was Nathan dying with Claire near-by with her handy dandy blood. Then again Noah knew but it was Suresh who used it to bring him back.
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post #2277 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 08:05 AM
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Sylar's abiility is to understand a power or ability and apply it to his own DNA, if he truly believes that he is Nathan, than Nathan's power should come naturally to him, but he wouldn't have access to any of his other powers, simply because he doesn't know that he has them.

The power that makes him heal is going to "heal" his psyhic surgery done on him by Parkmen. It make take a volume if that long but Sylar will be back.

That's the one power you dont have to think about to use.
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post #2278 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 08:14 AM
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Sylar kills Nathan but HRG drugs Sylar and while he is under, Parkman erases all of Slyar's own memories and implants all of Nathan's memories, at which point Sylar re-morphs into Nathan and thinks he is Nathan -- well sort of. I was also put off by why nobody tried to save the real Nathan with a blood transfusion from Claire. We know that it has worked before.
Sheesh, give us a break. What a ridiculous, unsatisfying season finale it was. I agree with the sentiment expressed by other posters that Heroes has overstayed its welcome.

By the way, if IMDb is correct, Zachary Quinto, who plays Sylar, is 6 feet 1 inch tall, while Adrian Pasdar, who plays Nathan, is only 5 feet 10 inches. Further, if my own observations are correct, Pasdar's listed height is wildly exaggerated. I would not be surprised if 5' 7" or there about was not more accurate. He appears to me to be Tom Cruise short.
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post #2279 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 09:13 AM
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Here's my take, if anyone cares....I know it's cool to hate Heroes and all, but it seems like only last week we were complaining because they'd never kill anyone off. So if they did, it would always resort (like it has) to "why don't they use Claire to bring them back to life?"

Frankly, I am glad they killed off Nathan. They have really killed off two characters (Annoying Sylar and Annonying Nathan) and created a new Sylar/Nathan hybrid that is much more interesting....or has the potential to be at least.

I can assume Sylar will regain at least part of his memory (hopefully not the I miss my dad memories) and then it will hopefully be interesting to see how he manipulates everyone and what powers he ends up getting back (good opportunity to tone him down a bit as well).

I did like how he played Danko in this ep.

Don't get me wrong, I can hate Heroes with the best of them, but I realize some liberties are going to have to be taken in order to get the show back on track, and some stuff they've established will have to be thrown out/re-written.

I just see potential for next season if they play it right (maybe I put too much faith in Fuller)
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post #2280 of 2358 Old 04-29-2009, 10:20 AM
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Maybe since we got two half deaths in this finale (half Nathan, half Sylar) we can get two more half deaths next season, and then we'll be done with the Nathan character for good. Also, the writer's will have the invincible thorn in their side dead, as well.

Honestly, I don't see why the invicinbility power should protect you from being incinerated in a fire. Also Adam Monroe was killed when he lost his power and he turned to dust (although that symbolized the fact that he was freakin old).

~Tighr: Not helping the situation since 1983

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