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post #1081 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 04:02 AM
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Emaych,

1st you are taking the show wayyyyyyyyyyyy to seriously, not need to think that much . This show is meant to be enjoyed "as is" not scientifically picked apart, it has never claimed to be a scientifically accurate.

As far as the babies go, I gues you missed the part where they were poisining them, but since they were getting poisned they started an "accelerated" eating frenzy....The blood os the main monster was to stop them from feeding off of Francis's internal organs and trying to make an "escape". Once they got the blood, they were able to administer the poison mixture and the blood so that it was safer.

I beleive by the time Francis was found infected, was around the same time Walter also said that he might know what is going on. SInce this was the case and due to the "sensitivity" of the issue they wanted to keep it "in house" in a semi controlled enviornment.

As far as the Lab personnel goes, we dont know who also got the page about the alarm. Since the head guy was the only one to go to the lab, we would have to assume he would be on a VERY short list of people that were aware of the alarm. Also, since there was a clean up crew peopel mioght have not known anything happened.


As far as piecing together the "clues", it would help to watch the earlier episodes ....Since you are missing a lot of the backstory you are going to be lost sometimes (a lot).........

Remember not every episode has to do with the pattern, I saw a very good analogy in a different forum. This show is a lot like the X files in some ways, it has an underlying mythology\\story line (the pattern\\aliens) that is visited here and there to keep it going, while the show also goes and investigates other "events" while not directly related to the main storyline are still related in some fashion.


In the end sit back and enjoy the show its more fiction then sceince and meant to be enjoyed not looked at for scentific factuality.

PS. sorry of none of this makes sense or there are spelling\\grammar mistakes, its very late\\early for me and I wanted to get this out before I lost it.


As for the episode, I enjoyed it as I usually do not a great episode, but very enjoyable..Was nice to see they are making the Observer more visable in the past few episodes.
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post #1082 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 04:56 AM
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Emaych, did you notice the Oberver this week?
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post #1083 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Emaych,

1st you are taking the show wayyyyyyyyyyyy to seriously, not need to think that much . This show is meant to be enjoyed "as is" not scientifically picked apart, it has never claimed to be a scientifically accurate.

As far as the babies go, I gues you missed the part where they were poisining them, but since they were getting poisned they started an "accelerated" eating frenzy....The blood os the main monster was to stop them from feeding off of Francis's internal organs and trying to make an "escape". Once they got the blood, they were able to administer the poison mixture and the blood so that it was safer.

I beleive by the time Francis was found infected, was around the same time Walter also said that he might know what is going on. SInce this was the case and due to the "sensitivity" of the issue they wanted to keep it "in house" in a semi controlled enviornment.

As far as the Lab personnel goes, we dont know who also got the page about the alarm. Since the head guy was the only one to go to the lab, we would have to assume he would be on a VERY short list of people that were aware of the alarm. Also, since there was a clean up crew peopel mioght have not known anything happened.


As far as piecing together the "clues", it would help to watch the earlier episodes ....Since you are missing a lot of the backstory you are going to be lost sometimes (a lot).........

Remember not every episode has to do with the pattern, I saw a very good analogy in a different forum. This show is a lot like the X files in some ways, it has an underlying mythology\\story line (the pattern\\aliens) that is visited here and there to keep it going, while the show also goes and investigates other "events" while not directly related to the main storyline are still related in some fashion.


In the end sit back and enjoy the show its more fiction then sceince and meant to be enjoyed not looked at for scentific factuality.

PS. sorry of none of this makes sense or there are spelling\\grammar mistakes, its very late\\early for me and I wanted to get this out before I lost it.


As for the episode, I enjoyed it as I usually do not a great episode, but very enjoyable..Was nice to see they are making the Observer more visable in the past few episodes.

The short answer is that no, I am not taking it too seriously, since I can and do certainly appreciate it for what it is. And I respect and value your take on it as well.

My point is always that with some minimum of more thought invested, such as you and I have shown willingness to do, and some very facile, deft, uncomplicated modifications of the writing, we then ascend into something much more gripping and compelling.

If these stories of the strange are supposed to take place in our world, the events should be SOMEWHAT grounded in everyday reality, otherwise nothing coheres, no drama proceeds, we shrug our shoulders and say "Ah...who cares? All just a bunch of made up gibberish anyway."

One of the main plot flaws was that Walter assumed that the adult creature's blood would be distasteful to the young ones -- they would stop eating -- no basis for that, in fact most species I believe do not distinguish like that -- nutrition is nutrition. Also, if this were the case, why not just use the worm blood they had available -- did it change when the creature became an adult? But of course then our merry band had no reason to seek out the marauding creature (except to save lives), and we would have missed Walter's touching heroics.

Short on time right now, but I definitely do appreciate it for what it is, it could just be so much better when everything holds together so well that we are not left daydreaming about how or why this thing or that could happen, we just get caught up, and if we think about it later, we can make everything slip into place easily, sit back and admire the mastery of storytelling -- that is all.


And no, I made a concious choice to not attempt to spot the Observer. This is not a terribly meaningful element to me for one, but for another it is a bit like reading subtitles -- distracts from apprehending a sense of the visual tableau/technique the director has set in front of you.
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post #1084 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 05:46 AM
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Here is an example: say the creature was wounded by the guy who was impregnated. Back in the lab, he gives birth with those things writhing out of the chest -- some of them land in the creature's blood which is smeared on our dead victim -- the worms go into death spasms then expire.

Now we KNOW that they react to the adult blood, we do not know why, but we don't have to -- they have observed this works, so now their mission becomes clear -- it is not based on the crack-pot ill-founded hypothesis of their loosest cannon.

No time, got to go..........
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post #1085 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 07:51 AM
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emaych: I agree with you. It looked like the parasites had broken through the digestive organs and were roaming free. Without surgery, poor guy should've been dead from internal bleeding alone. Just because the fantastic elements of the show is way out there, it doesn't mean you can suspend all normal laws of known physics and medicine. It's just lazy crappy writing.
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post #1086 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Emaych,

1st you are taking the show wayyyyyyyyyyyy to seriously, not need to think that much . This show is meant to be enjoyed "as is" not scientifically picked apart, it has never claimed to be a scientifically accurate.

I agree. Although I do not take issue with the observations of other posters that Charlie's medical problems and the way they were cured were unusually preposterousness, none of it bothered me.

Fringe is a fantasy and depicts situations not possible in the real world. As I am not a doctor and don't even play one on TV, impossibilities the writers present about what is going on in a human body don't concern me in the slightest. After all, if I can accept the presentation of a mutant monster that is part snake, part tiger, part bat, and part God knows what else, why would I worry about the details of what its attack might have been doing to Charlie's body?
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post #1087 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

emaych: I agree with you. It looked like the parasites had broken through the digestive organs and were roaming free. Without surgery, poor guy should've been dead from internal bleeding alone. Just because the fantastic elements of the show is way out there, it doesn't mean you can suspend all normal laws of known physics and medicine. It's just lazy crappy writing.

All I am saying.

As to specifics of bodily functioning, that is FAR from being even the most prominant departure from reality, which I contend NEEDS to be here, otherwise why not just go from scene to scene -- Walter is suddenly now an unintelligible cartoon character, next scene he is a space alien destroying the planet, next he is human again -- we never know why. That scenario simply does not make sense, nor would many stick around for it. Similarly we have something which pretends to be grounded in reality, but is really only careless writing.


Why is LOST so compelling? None of that yet makes much sense either, but the back stories and acting and dramatic tension created all seem very real, thus we can forestall knowing why things happen, perhaps indefinitely. In FRINGE, the motivations don't add up, the simplest plot elements are hopelessly flawed. Forget the science, perhaps that is misleading to focus on, the characters themselves don't make sense -- more later, I'm out of break time.....
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post #1088 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Forget the science, perhaps that is misleading to focus on, the characters themselves don't make sense -- more later, I'm out of break time.....

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, I think the characters do make "sense". Watching the show from the beginning we had a basis of each character and they have each grown and progressed in thier own right. If you havent seen the 1st 4 episodes or dont remember the 1st 4 episodes then I can see where you might think this. The 1st few episodes layed the groundwork for most of the show. Again, this is a show that you have to take something with you from previous weeks (especially the beginning). If you jumped into the show mid way then you may be lost to why some of the characters act the way they do (especially Walter).

As fas as where the creatures were, I think they took elements from a bunch of hollywood scenes (X Files with the BLack alien virus, The Mummy with the Scarab beetles both of which traveled internally yet didnt seem to cause much if any internal damage).

Again, thinking too much science, this show is mostly fiction\\fantasy based in the "real world". It does take queues from "real world" science, but takes the hollywood\\fatasy twist.

I for one dont think about the factuality of any show, if I did that it would ruin it for me. I go in and enjoy the show for what it is entertainment.
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post #1089 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JimsArcade View Post

Did anyone decode the symbols for this week? (I'm reminded of watching Jericho, waiting for people to translate the morse code at the beginning of each episode.)

Just in case you havent been able to find it:
http://www.observersarehere.com/glyph-code-116/2009/04/

BTW the above site is another good resource for the show....

For those that cant\\dont go to the site the answer is:

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post #1090 of 6444 Old 04-16-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I for one dont think about the factuality of any show, if I did that it would ruin it for me. I go in and enjoy the show for what it is entertainment.

A lot of the fun of science fiction has been diluted by efforts to be more realistic. All Battlestar and no Back to the Future makes science fiction a dull pursuit. In a world where everything science fiction is uncomfortably close to true, it's kind of a relief to watch a show like Fringe, that's so damned far out there that you don't worry.
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post #1091 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, I think the characters do make "sense". Watching the show from the beginning we had a basis of each character and they have each grown and progressed in thier own right. If you havent seen the 1st 4 episodes or dont remember the 1st 4 episodes then I can see where you might think this. The 1st few episodes layed the groundwork for most of the show. Again, this is a show that you have to take something with you from previous weeks (especially the beginning). If you jumped into the show mid way then you may be lost to why some of the characters act the way they do (especially Walter).

As fas as where the creatures were, I think they took elements from a bunch of hollywood scenes (X Files with the BLack alien virus, The Mummy with the Scarab beetles both of which traveled internally yet didnt seem to cause much if any internal damage).

Again, thinking too much science, this show is mostly fiction\\fantasy based in the "real world". It does take queues from "real world" science, but takes the hollywood\\fatasy twist.

I for one dont think about the factuality of any show, if I did that it would ruin it for me. I go in and enjoy the show for what it is entertainment.

Here is what I'm talking about concerning verisimilitude of events, character motivation, etc.:

This latest outing we have our crew called to a crash site -- outwardly, on the surface there appears nothing particularly extraordinary about this crash --car rolls over, people within seem mauled. So they crashed close to the woods, animal got to them -- that is even if they can really tell that injuries did not result from the crash, usually I should think those type of conclusions are saved for the Coroner to make after lab examination, but OK, whatever. But in any case, what is the FBI doing there? The STRANGE CASE SQUAD of all things -- WE know they are there because this mutant beast escaped, but why do THEY think they are there? That makes no sense to me.

Also, beyond that, since this is clearly a matter for local law enforcement, why are the local Police allowing the FBI to trample all over their site? Remember, only one of which is FBI, or if we count her case commander, then there are two -- the other two are just very questionable civilians, one of whom proceeds to devour on-site evidence, yet no one is raising any objection to the freak squad running all over the place. Walter absolutely clearly does not belong here and his son has absolutely no standing or even any kind of specialized expertise to bring to bear, so what is he doing here?

Also, beyond even that, you have bodies not consigned to the Coroner, or Morgue, where any number of very strict regulations stipulate that they should go, but they end up in Dr. Whack-Job's lab of horrors where a cow of all things is lodging. What about the families of those Animal Control personnel? Are they agreeable to that? Well, the simple fact of the matter is that that doesn't even count -- no one would go along with deliberately misdirecting a body like that to be subject to who knows what.

Beyond even that, we get Walter REGULARLY making these inane pronouncements, suppositions, conclusions -- last week: kid has never been exposed to language so let's hook him up to a speech-center scanner to translate his non-language thoughts to English, this week it was: let's introduce adult monster blood into the feeding environment of the gestating larval monsters -- they would never want to feed on their own kind -- then everyone stands around like they have no ability to think through the most idiotic of suppositions, and all rally to the cause of blindly capitulating to old Dr. Gonzo.

Those are some of the motivations that make no sense -- a few more: Agent Francis turns himself over to this obvious nut case (not in the sense that he is psychotic like he is supposed to be, but in the sense that his thinking is cleary muddled to the point where causal relationships are lost on him), to writhe on a table in agony staring down certain tortuous death -- this versus care in a hospital where at least his demise will not be agonizing. Charley does not even tell his wife that it is the end when he believes it is -- guess that is just some minor matter she will discover later when they get aound to informing her loyal agent hubby has expired in a Harvard lab.

Motivation of animal-experiment lab personnel engaged in a cover-up -- lying to the FBI, a Federal crime to be sure, to conceal a very very messy death, that no one of reasonable intellect would try to cover up -- how about the guy with paint roller that went by -- did he do anything here that would motivate him to commit a Federal crime in covering up his cleanup of a wildly mauled body?

Why not just write in that the second in command there throws some chemicals around to make it look like something else -- something to eat away at the evidence, then call the authorities to report something other than what really happened -- seems a much better chance that cover-up will succeed, since just ignoring the disappearance of Top Doc isn't going to cut it. Also only the second in command need be involved in the cover-up. But this plot element never went anyplace anyway -- the second in command quickly gave it up anyway, so why bother mucking up the story with more impossibilities?

I could go on and on. What is Walter's son even doing here? -- I seem to recall he was called off of a jet-setting life style making lots of money... to do this? Why would he? What is his motivation for being here at all?

Some folks here are saying, if I can accept a monster as integral to the plot, why worry about other fantastic elements? Here is the difference: we can well imagine a genetic mutation, an awesome freak of nature or engineering, these things happen, other things happen we do not understand -- all well and good, but to then carry over this suspension of disbelief into areas we DO understand, is asking too much. Maybe Walter needs to get to the other side of the lab quickly, can we show him flying there? How about, he is sad that the Animal Control guy is dead and birthing worms -- can we show Walter just scooping out the worms which burn in his hand and then he touches the guy's forehead and he lives again?

Well sure, maybe you could, but you would have to set this up by saying that Walter has super powers -- just to throw junk out like that does not cut it. Here that kind of stuff is sloppy and lazy and mediocre writing. Now in the context of a campy just for fun ride like Back to the Future where the tone is breezy and lighthearted and self-aware, it works -- here it is just insipid.

You know, I worry about folks not seeming to be able to critically examine these things -- studies have already shown that shows such as CSI have put so much junk in front of people that the judgment of jury members is critically impaired -- just something to think about as a long-term impact of accepting whatever goes.....
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post #1092 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

As fas as where the creatures were, I think they took elements from a bunch of hollywood scenes (X Files with the BLack alien virus, The Mummy with the Scarab beetles both of which traveled internally yet didnt seem to cause much if any internal damage).

Again, thinking too much science, this show is mostly fiction\\fantasy based in the "real world". It does take queues from "real world" science, but takes the hollywood\\fatasy twist.

By the way, I think you are exactly correct about this -- you can almost hear the writers conferring about their latest episode -- "Oh, and here we'll just throw in a shot ala Mummy with the little buggers roaming around under the skin -- that should make their skin crawl" -- and it came off in just that way, like some cheap rehash gimmick we have seen so many times that I guess people just accept it unquestioningly any more -- but is your memory actually accurate as to the scarabs not doing massive damage in The Mummy? I seem to recall that all the tomb excavators that came under siege in this way were marked for rapid death, which seemed very likely, so no problem there.

The point is, this show seems like a compendium for all the hackneyed sci-fi scenes and lore we've seen over the last 50 years -- cobbled together and shoe-horned in, whether it makes sense or not, but if you aren't weaving a tale that proceeds from one scene building on the last, then what do you ultimately have?

The sci-fi twist on reality would be invasion of the digestive tract with worms that are larval mutant hybrid species, not that basic human physiology can be defied by them ripping through muscle and connective tissue, destroying the internal organs in the process, but then when we kill them (by starving them in five minutes, no less), all that damege turns out to be nothing at all -- just go home, sleep with wife like nothing happened. That is not a sci-fi twist, that is recreation/reimagining of the very universe, which I'm all for -- just let us know it is a different dimension, but then you still have to stick to the rules you set up for that dimension, and I don't give these writers a prayer of being able to do that either.
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post #1093 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 05:16 AM
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Here is an analogy that may work for you: whenever I see a kick in the groin in movies anymore, it instantly turns me off -- my regard for that film instantly plummets a few notches, because it is positively reeks with the putrefaction of creative exhaustion -- all-out-ideas, throw in the old groin-kick, that should be knee-slapper. Here we had the old beasty-buggies crawl under the skin with lousy CGI effects -- I can even overlook reusing that -- honestly I don't know how anyone endures the pressure of coming up with a script per week -- but then, as if to prove it is just washed up gimmick, there are no repercussions for violation of the body in this way.


NOW HEAR THIS: I will give big big props for the writers having our heroes shoot the monster at the end AND MONSTER DROPS FROM THE GUNFIRE!!! Now that did pleasantly surprise, unfortunately as I thought about it, I realized that it was time for the show to get over, so a hurry-up was in process here, otherwise we would have had to go through the damned thing coming back to life again like you always see. Still, the monster dropping was abrupt enough that it satisfied, so good on you there, writers.
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post #1094 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Here is what I'm talking about concerning verisimilitude of events, character motivation, etc.:

This latest outing we have our crew called to a crash site -- outwardly, on the surface there appears nothing particularly extraordinary about this crash --car rolls over, people within seem mauled. So they crashed close to the woods, animal got to them -- that is even if they can really tell that injuries did not result from the crash, usually I should think those type of conclusions are saved for the Coroner to make after lab examination, but OK, whatever. But in any case, what is the FBI doing there? The STRANGE CASE SQUAD of all things -- WE know they are there because this mutant beast escaped, but why do THEY think they are there? That makes no sense to me.

On this one we dont know why they were called only that they were called. THey only thing I can think of was the overly violent death of the people which the Locals might have brought the FBI in.

Also, beyond that, since this is clearly a matter for local law enforcement, why are the local Police allowing the FBI to trample all over their site? Remember, only one of which is FBI, or if we count her case commander, then there are two -- the other two are just very questionable civilians, one of whom proceeds to devour on-site evidence, yet no one is raising any objection to the freak squad running all over the place. Walter absolutely clearly does not belong here and his son has absolutely no standing or even any kind of specialized expertise to bring to bear, so what is he doing here?


Also, beyond even that, you have bodies not consigned to the Coroner, or Morgue, where any number of very strict regulations stipulate that they should go, but they end up in Dr. Whack-Job's lab of horrors where a cow of all things is lodging. What about the families of those Animal Control personnel? Are they agreeable to that? Well, the simple fact of the matter is that that doesn't even count -- no one would go along with deliberately misdirecting a body like that to be subject to who knows what.

On this one we dont know why they were called only that they were called. THey only thing I can think of was the overly violent death of the people which the Locals might have brought the FBI in. You are thinking WAY to much about the details of the show .

Quote:


Beyond even that, we get Walter REGULARLY making these inane pronouncements, suppositions, conclusions -- last week: kid has never been exposed to language so let's hook him up to a speech-center scanner to translate his non-language thoughts to English, this week it was: let's introduce adult monster blood into the feeding environment of the gestating larval monsters -- they would never want to feed on their own kind -- then everyone stands around like they have no ability to think through the most idiotic of suppositions, and all rally to the cause of blindly capitulating to old Dr. Gonzo.

This is part of the show, has been since Walter was released. If this is going to cause a problem then I suggest that you will probably want to stop watching as this is a running part of the show that I dont see stopping anytime soon. BTW theyve used the device to read thoughts in previous episodes. Walter never said it would work, he thought it MIGHT work, for the shows sake it DID work.

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Those are some of the motivations that make no sense -- a few more: Agent Francis turns himself over to this obvious nut case (not in the sense that he is psychotic like he is supposed to be, but in the sense that his thinking is cleary muddled to the point where causal relationships are lost on him), to writhe on a table in agony staring down certain tortuous death -- this versus care in a hospital where at least his demise will not be agonizing. Charley does not even tell his wife that it is the end when he believes it is -- guess that is just some minor matter she will discover later when they get aound to informing her loyal agent hubby has expired in a Harvard lab.

Again, In my view Charlie was trying to "protect" his wife from the "horror show" that he was going through. He trusted Walter becasue at that point I beleive Walter had already said he may know what it is that they were dealing with. Also, he was very close to Olivia and would trust her judgement, if she though Walter had a chance then he would allow things he normally wouldnt to go on.

Quote:


Motivation of animal-experiment lab personnel engaged in a cover-up -- lying to the FBI, a Federal crime to be sure, to conceal a very very messy death, that no one of reasonable intellect would try to cover up -- how about the guy with paint roller that went by -- did he do anything here that would motivate him to commit a Federal crime in covering up his cleanup of a wildly mauled body?

Again, we dont know WHO at the lab knew besides the one Oliva had contact with. They could of cleaned that up with a small trusted group and then cleaned up with others that didnt know what happened. Heck they could of told them that it was an accident with an animal.

Quote:


Why not just write in that the second in command there throws some chemicals around to make it look like something else -- something to eat away at the evidence, then call the authorities to report something other than what really happened -- seems a much better chance that cover-up will succeed, since just ignoring the disappearance of Top Doc isn't going to cut it. Also only the second in command need be involved in the cover-up. But this plot element never went anyplace anyway -- the second in command quickly gave it up anyway, so why bother mucking up the story with more impossibilities?

The lab never reported the accident, it happened that they went to lab and pieced everything together. Why thorugh chemicals on somehting that was never reported, also, whos to say they didnt before the paint crew got there.

Quote:


I could go on and on. What is Walter's son even doing here? -- I seem to recall he was called off of a jet-setting life style making lots of money... to do this? Why would he? What is his motivation for being here at all?

This statement right here makes me think you need to go and watch the 1st episodes again as you have forgotten one of the baisics of the show. His son was there to keep him out of the institution. He then stayed as a favor of sorts to Oliva (she did pressure\\seduce him to stay). Him staying also keeps him out of trouble from the people he was runnign from.

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Some folks here are saying, if I can accept a monster as integral to the plot, why worry about other fantastic elements? Here is the difference: we can well imagine a genetic mutation, an awesome freak of nature or engineering, these things happen, other things happen we do not understand -- all well and good, but to then carry over this suspension of disbelief into areas we DO understand, is asking too much. Maybe Walter needs to get to the other side of the lab quickly, can we show him flying there? How about, he is sad that the Animal Control guy is dead and birthing worms -- can we show Walter just scooping out the worms which burn in his hand and then he touches the guy's forehead and he lives again?

Well sure, maybe you could, but you would have to set this up by saying that Walter has super powers -- just to throw junk out like that does not cut it. Here that kind of stuff is sloppy and lazy and mediocre writing. Now in the context of a campy just for fun ride like Back to the Future where the tone is breezy and lighthearted and self-aware, it works -- here it is just insipid.

You know, I worry about folks not seeming to be able to critically examine these things -- studies have already shown that shows such as CSI have put so much junk in front of people that the judgment of jury members is critically impaired -- just something to think about as a long-term impact of accepting whatever goes.....

I dont watch and have never watched CSI so I dont know what it is all about. the only Cop dramas I have watched in the past years(on a regular basis) are The Wire, The Shield, and Homicide.

I dont critically examine shows, becasue they are ment to be entertainment, not scientific fact. I do this by choice, I know what I am watching is pure entertainment not some documentary. If I wanted something to examine Id be watching Discovery or the Science Channel, or hell reading a book.

I said it before and Ill say it again you are putting way to much thought into this show. It has never tried to be or stated that its a show based in reality. The only things that are "real" are the settings and the people.

THis show may not be for you as you seem to want a Sci-Fi show that can be scientifically correct when picked apart.

Again, you will want to watch the 1st episodes again as you seem to be "lost" on some of the groundwork layed by them. Without knowing the groundwork layed out in the 1st few episodes the main character and why the do what they do will go over your head and not make sense.
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post #1095 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:12 AM
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With regard to Walter making inane pronouncements:

"This is part of the show, has been since Walter was released. If this is going to cause a problem then I suggest that you will probably want to stop watching as this is a running part of the show that I dont see stopping anytime soon. BTW theyve used the device to read thoughts in previous episodes. Walter never said it would work, he thought it MIGHT work, for the shows sake it DID work."


Well, you are missing the point ENTIRELY -- yes, Walter is portrayed as some kind of semi-senile ditsy eccentric with a wandering mind. That is part of the character they are building. He is ALSO supposed to be a BRILLIANT scientific mind. The inane pronouncements I am talking about are where he makes ill-founded scientific presumptions or hypotheses which in turn should cause any average person standing by to stop what they are doing and exclaim "Oh my God! This guy can't think his way out of a hefty bag, what ever are we doing listening to him?!!!"

I pointed this out in the context of the motivations of the characters -- why are they putting their fate in the hands of an obvious whack-job -- whack-job NOT BECAUSE HE WANTS A BURRITO WHEN THERE IS DEATH AND GORE ALL ABOUT HIM, BUT BECAUSE HE CAN'T THINK CLEARLY, THEREFORE WHATEVER HE PLANS TO DO IS LIKELY WAY OFF BASE AND QUITE POSSIBLY EVEN FATAL.

Also I think if you go back to the episode, it will be clear to you that his "mind-read" device was not that at all -- he said it was to scan the speech center of the brain and TRANSLATE THAT TO AUDIBLE ENGLISH -- which they then proceeded to do -- the point is that if the kid HAD NO SPEECH CAPABILITY because he was never exposed to it as they assumed, THEN THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO READ! That is just simple deduction that any non-scientist child could think through -- it renders the application of that device evidence that Walter does not even have a logical mind let alone scientific one, yet everyone is there to do his bidding -- completely incompehensible.
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post #1096 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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With regard to Walter making inane pronouncements:

"This is part of the show, has been since Walter was released. If this is going to cause a problem then I suggest that you will probably want to stop watching as this is a running part of the show that I dont see stopping anytime soon. BTW theyve used the device to read thoughts in previous episodes. Walter never said it would work, he thought it MIGHT work, for the shows sake it DID work."


Well, you are missing the point ENTIRELY -- yes, Walter is portrayed as some kind of semi-senile ditsy eccentric with a wandering mind. That is part of the character they are building. He is ALSO supposed to be a BRILLIANT scientific mind. The inane pronouncements I am talking about are where he makes ill-founded scientific presumptions or hypotheses which in turn should cause any average person standing by to stop what they are doing and exclaim "Oh my God! This guy can't think his way out of a hefty bag, what ever are we doing listening to him?!!!"

I pointed this out in the context of the motivations of the characters -- why are they putting their fate in the hands of an obvious whack-job -- whack-job NOT BECAUSE HE WANTS A BURRITO WHEN THERE IS DEATH AND GORE ALL ABOUT HIM, BUT BECAUSE HE CAN'T THINK CLEARLY, THEREFORE WHATEVER HE PLANS TO DO IS LIKELY WAY OFF BASE AND QUITE POSSIBLY EVEN FATAL.

Also I think if you go back to the episode, it will be clear to you that his "mind-read" device was not that at all -- he said it was to scan the speech center of the brain and TRANSLATE THAT TO AUDIBLE ENGLISH -- which they then proceeded to do -- the point is that if the kid HAD NO SPEECH CAPABILITY because he was never exposed to it as they assumed, THEN THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO READ! That is just simple deduction that any non-scientist child could think through -- it renders the application of that device evidence that Walter does not even have a logical mind let alone scientific one, yet everyone is there to do his bidding -- completely incompehensible.

I was going to write a response, but I am going to hold back. I have read your reposes and it seems you are stuck on your point, no need to delve further into the "vortex".

As I said, before IMO this is a show that you are not going to be able to enjoy. There are just too many thing that go on in this show that will drive you crazy. You are taking it too seriously, and feel the need to nitpick the science of it. You also dont have a clear recollection (or no recollection if you havent seen them) of the 1st episodes, which layed the ground work for what goes on now. This show is not meant to be taken literally or as fact its purely entertainment.

For me I am going on and watching the show, and enjoying it. I hope you stick with it, but I have a feeling you will be leaving the show as it is just not based in fact enough for you to enjoy.
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post #1097 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:35 AM
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Again, we dont know WHO at the lab knew besides the one Oliva had contact with. They could of cleaned that up with a small trusted group and then cleaned up with others that didnt know what happened. Heck they could of told them that it was an accident with an animal.


The lab never reported the accident, it happened that they went to lab and pieced everything together. Why thorugh chemicals on somehting that was never reported, also, whos to say they didnt before the paint crew got there.

OK, you have a smaller group of trusted lab techs or whatever, clean up the mess -- why? Why are people doing this? They are lower level than the very top. Subordinates who weren't responsible for making top-level policy decisions regarding the engineering of this beast, so they are not very culpable of much wrong-doing presumably.

So why are they messing with the scene of a homicide? ESPECIALLY ONE WHERE THEIR TOP DOC IS SHREDDED TO BLOODY RIBBONS. That kind of scene demands to be left alone -- call the Police OR one guy, the second in command maybe, tries to cover it up -- if that is what happens, then I think your explanation about the paint crew makes perfect sense -- the stains they saw were whatever, how were they to know?

I know the lab never reported the incident -- that is the point I was making -- any rational person is going to wonder how long this can be covered up -- at the very least, make it seem like another animal got to Top Doc, how are you just going to ignore that he got up in the middle of the night, then came up missing, then a massive clean-up takes place at work that at least a few people know about?


But anyway, the main point is that if enough junk is just inserted without explanation then entertainment is reduced. I mean, at what point does it completely fall apart? How about Walter gets to a crime scene in a blinding flash of light, only now he is an animated cartoon character who is speaking Russian, but then he changes into a rabbit to nibble some grass. There is a point at which stuff that makes no sense causes everything to crumble. I think where we differ is that your threshhold is somewhat higher than mine.

The funny thing about is, they could easily write their way around so much of this -- why would you throw in something that makes no sense, when something that makes perfect sense is right there at hand? Makes no sense, except in the context that people seem willing to watch whatever is on TV and also I guess that humans tend to be lazy thinkers or writers if they trust that they can get away with alot less than stellar or gripping writing.
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post #1098 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:43 AM
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probably the most serious nerdiest thread I've ever read over a show that basically billed itself as X-Files where the science is FAKE.

guys, let it go. Let's enjoy the show as that, a show...entertainment...

I Geez Zeus Me

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post #1099 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 08:47 AM
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OK, you have a smaller group of trusted lab techs or whatever, clean up the mess -- why? Why are people doing this? They are lower level than the very top. Subordinates who weren't responsible for making top-level policy decisions regarding the engineering of this beast, so they are not very culpable of much wrong-doing presumably.

So why are they messing with the scene of a homicide? ESPECIALLY ONE WHERE THEIR TOP DOC IS SHREDDED TO BLOODY RIBBONS. That kind of scene demands to be left alone -- call the Police OR one guy, the second in command maybe, tries to cover it up -- if that is what happens, then I think your explanation about the paint crew makes perfect sense -- the stains they saw were whatever, how were they to know?

I know the lab never reported the incident -- that is the point I was making -- any rational person is going to wonder how long this can be covered up -- at the very least, make it seem like another animal got to Top Doc, how are you just going to ignore that he got up in the middle of the night, then came up missing, then a massive clean-up takes place at work that at least a few people know about?


But anyway, the main point is that if enough junk is just inserted without explanation then entertainment is reduced. I mean, at what point does it completely fall apart? How about Walter gets to a crime scene in a blinding flash of light, only now he is an animated cartoon character who is speaking Russian, but then he changes into a rabbit to nibble some grass. There is a point at which stuff that makes no sense causes everything to crumble. I think where we differ is that your threshhold is somewhat higher than mine.

The funny thing about is, they could easily write their way around so much of this -- why would you throw in something that makes no sense, when something that makes perfect sense is right there at hand? Makes no sense, except in the context that people seem willing to watch whatever is on TV and also I guess that humans tend to be lazy thinkers or writers if they trust that they can get away with alot less than stellar or gripping writing.

The other head of the lab was aware of the experiements that were going on, knowing how much trouble they could get in, he covered up the killing to prevent further scrutiny of the lab itself.....Isnt this a basic form of conspiracy 101 for hollywood???....As I said this is NOT reality it is televison\\entertainment...\\


OK OK now I am done........Its obvious that you are stuck in the train of thought that this show needs to be realistic in order to be good. We will ahveto agree to disagree. I am heading out of this vortex now for good .


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probably the most serious nerdiest thread I've ever read over a show that basically billed itself as X-Files where the science is FAKE.

guys, let it go. Let's enjoy the show as that, a show...entertainment...

I was trying to get that point across ....But I guess it got lost somewhere (at least I thought I have said that a few times maybe Walter is rubbing off on me )......
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post #1100 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 09:12 AM
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I hope he doesn't watch Heroes.


YOU ARE READING AVS FORUM

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post #1101 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 09:17 AM
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As I said, before IMO this is a show that you are not going to be able to enjoy. There are just too many thing that go on in this show that will drive you crazy. You are taking it too seriously, and feel the need to nitpick the science of it. You also dont have a clear recollection (or no recollection if you havent seen them) of the 1st episodes, which layed the ground work for what goes on now. This show is not meant to be taken literally or as fact its purely entertainment.

For me I am going on and watching the show, and enjoying it. I hope you stick with it, but I have a feeling you will be leaving the show as it is just not based in fact enough for you to enjoy.

Perhaps this is not obvious: I do enjoy the show. I enjoy shows that are bad just as much as anyone else. The fact that I am willing to devote this time to think about and encourage thought about it, would seem to point to that I hope. I am not driven crazy by the the show as is -- I watch it, this stuff occurs to me, I share it, watch again next week -- it is right up my alley, after all.

You keep saying I'm nitpicking the science of it -- again, the biggest flaw is the foundational premise, the character motivations, the holes in the plot -- the science (where this is not the world we live in), is almost an afterthought to examine, but there just as well in the same way.

Again, my primary point is ALWAYS that a show becomes MORE ENTERTAINING THE LESS IDIOTIC IT IS. But let me just take a moment to address something you said, Ph8te: you said maybe the FBI was possibly called in due to the copious blood on scene -- this is kindof the point that I was making about people watching too many shows where this kind of foolishness is exhibited -- the FBI can be called in where there is some mandate, some statutory jurisdiction that makes it Federal, or I suppose a casual phone call to request consultation is not prohibited, but for the FBI to designate funds, devote manpower, etc., there has to be something which statutorially makes it their province -- excessive blood would not be one of those exigent circumstances.

But anyway, I hope nothing I've written seems like I'm not enjoying the show, overall I guess it is fair to say I'm enjoying it somewhat more than higher quality shows, but that does not keep me from recognizing the nature and state of fare propagated here.
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post #1102 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 10:00 AM
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Holy crap these are some long posts....gonna need another lunch break to catch up.

In the meantime, saw the observer. He walked behind the reporter that was on the TV describing the monster.
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post #1103 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 10:03 AM
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Holy crap these are some long posts....gonna need another lunch break to catch up.

In the meantime, saw the observer. He walked behind the reporter that was on the TV describing the monster.

Feel perfectly free to chime in whenever you're ready, just sharing some random thoughts here for amusement.......
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post #1104 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 04:21 PM
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Did anyone get any serious macroblocking and interference during the show this past week? I am watching in ATL and got the bad picture both on Directv and OTA. So it was not a Directv problem.
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post #1105 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:03 PM
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Again, my primary point is ALWAYS that a show becomes MORE ENTERTAINING THE LESS IDIOTIC IT IS. But let me just take a moment to address something you said, Ph8te: you said maybe the FBI was possibly called in due to the copious blood on scene -- this is kindof the point that I was making about people watching too many shows where this kind of foolishness is exhibited -- the FBI can be called in where there is some mandate, some statutory jurisdiction that makes it Federal, or I suppose a casual phone call to request consultation is not prohibited, but for the FBI to designate funds, devote manpower, etc., there has to be something which statutorially makes it their province -- excessive blood would not be one of those exigent circumstances.

We dont know what circumstances lead to the FBI being called....All we know is that they WERE called.......Its just one of those details thats going to kill you...THey are not going to go into detail on every single little thing, its obvious that these types of things kill you. BTW the reason I gave was just a quick thought nothing more (and one I didnt put much thought into), remember we are dealing with HOLLYWOOD here, NOT real life. They leave out details all the time, if it bothers you that much stop watching as I dont see it stopping......Yes, your nitpicking of the details makes it sound like you dont like the show.

As far as the characters go since you havent watched or dont remember the 1st few episodes, then you will not "get" why they do what they do (ever). You will need to watch them again to understand it. I have a feeling though that even after watching those you will find something at fault........

I dont take this show or any sow seriously or put much thought into them. The reason is that they dont require much thought to enjoy. Its entertainment and thats it, plain and simple.

And out of the vortex I go......
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post #1106 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 07:06 PM
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Did anyone get any serious macroblocking and interference during the show this past week? I am watching in ATL and got the bad picture both on Directv and OTA. So it was not a Directv problem.

I didnt notice any serious problems with the image here from Cox on our local affiliate...
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post #1107 of 6444 Old 04-17-2009, 08:35 PM
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If you really require a coherent, character-driven story, it's probably safe to say the B-movie monster fest centered on a drug-addled mad scientist isn't the show for you.
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post #1108 of 6444 Old 04-18-2009, 02:55 AM
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We dont know what circumstances lead to the FBI being called....All we know is that they WERE called.......Its just one of those details thats going to kill you...THey are not going to go into detail on every single little thing, its obvious that these types of things kill you. BTW the reason I gave was just a quick thought nothing more (and one I didnt put much thought into), remember we are dealing with HOLLYWOOD here, NOT real life. They leave out details all the time, if it bothers you that much stop watching as I dont see it stopping......Yes, your nitpicking of the details makes it sound like you dont like the show.

As far as the characters go since you havent watched or dont remember the 1st few episodes, then you will not "get" why they do what they do (ever). You will need to watch them again to understand it. I have a feeling though that even after watching those you will find something at fault........

I dont take this show or any sow seriously or put much thought into them. The reason is that they dont require much thought to enjoy. Its entertainment and thats it, plain and simple.

And out of the vortex I go......

Well, I see that you weary of the exchange. Possibly it seems like I am picking on you or the show and that you see yourself as defending it and me attacking it. I do not see things that way. Something very specific happens when folks don't like a show -- they stop watching and generally fade on interest in making long reference to it, whether conversationally or online. That is not what is going on here.

My perception is that as regular viewers, we are tossing around a few conceptual notions regarding the way we have chosen to spend one of the hours per week that God has granted us. I think the show could be improved upon, perhaps you feel all is well as is, and indeed, it is well enough to attract my viewership, but aren't there gradations of quality? Eschelons of excellence? Is it extraordinary or out of place to imagine changes which would lead to something superior? Can we just lump all serialized audio/visual entertainments as only entertainment, therefore never in need of any modification, adjustment, improvement? It seems like you are saying that because they are entertainment, and if they attain at least some minimum standard of being entertaining, they are now exempt from such judgments.

I don't know, to me, someone who comes onto this forum, offers up a one-line "Good episode tonight," is probably far less a fan than you or I -- at least they are certainly not manifesting the level of commitment that is evident in our exchange. My intent is to say something interesting about what we watch, I hope you found it so. I found your comments of interest and applaud your willingness to engage -- that is admirable to me, especially since I know that many other sideliners are undoubtedly thinking "I don't have the time or inclination to get involved in all this."

Yes, when I commit, I'm all in, which is one reason I've kindof stepped away from the Forum -- only so much time you know -- but I was discussing the show with a friend online, and thought to broaden it a bit. You have characterized this as a vortex, but I point out that I only reengage because it seems like you are not understanding my points.

Example: when you call why the FBI is there in the first place a "detail," well, to me it seems like the whole point of departure for that episode. Everything that follows hinges on our accepting that. You obviously do. For me this leaves a lingering glitch, which when we get to the next scene and walk away with another, then another -- all of a sudden I'm thinking more about how it SHOULD have been written than getting immersed in what they are presenting. This is my experiencing of the show -- I bring my own entertainment to it, in spite of the percieved deficiencies.

There are many many reasons to watch that have nothing to do with entertaining storylines or what have you -- as a reflection of American culture, as an examination of what actors can do to elevate less than stellar material, for the visuals, for the sound -- the list goes on.

As to your observation that the show needs to be watched from the beginning to get motivation -- I disagree, I think the producers would disagree -- I'm quite sure they would feel like every episode should stand on its own, otherwise you limit yourself to just the viewership you had on the first day. But even beyond that, my comments about motivations were for every player involved -- even the ones just introduced this episode -- people are not acting or doing things as people would -- this is the result of poor writing, carelessness -- it has permeated every installment -- it is fused into the core of this series, therefore I can be assured nothing will change were I to rewatch everything, though I may at some point.

You seem to take what I say, then reexplain to me all the things I already have acknowledged knowing, but having a problem with -- example: telling me that lab never reported the accident. Yes, never reported it -- that was exactly my point, so I of course know that they never reported it, my point was that any person of any intelligence would know that to cover it up -- that bloody bloody death with body parts presumably strewn all about in the early morning, with more and more lab personnel arriving for the day shift, with the Top Doc suddenly missing, with all that would have to go into covering this up -- it is utterly futile to try to cover it up, therefore this would not have happened in that way. Could it have happened in another way? Sure, use that way, NOT the one they did use -- that is all. I mean, they didn't even stick with it anyway -- the second time Olivia talks to the second in command, he gives everything up, so now he has compounded the felony and why? It was futile anyway. I guess we can credit the writers for EVENTUALLY realizing that no one would persist in this -- that is at least SOMETHING, I suppose.

Anyway, I know you are wanting to withdraw, so please feel free, by all means -- to me we are just tossing some things around and I've found it enriching, if you are not of similar view, then there is certainly no reason for you to continue. I thank you for the stimulating exchange.
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post #1109 of 6444 Old 04-18-2009, 02:33 PM
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At todays Cleveland at NY Yankee game on FOX the watcher is sitting in the stands slowly looking around!

LOL!

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post #1110 of 6444 Old 04-18-2009, 05:37 PM
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At todays Cleveland at NY Yankee game on FOX the watcher is sitting in the stands slowly looking around!

LOL!

considering the economy, that dude has a pretty good gig.
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