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post #1351 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 06:03 PM
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Damn! Why is there an evil Spock in every parallel universe?

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post #1352 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 06:39 PM
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Great Season Finale!!!!

I see a lot of talk about the Alter-Unverse version of the characters being the "evil" ones, but what if it is the current chacters that are the evil ones? That would through a wrench in the works ..............All I am saying is that as Walter has said "Other unwelcome things come to "this" side, whos to say they are not the unwelcome things comming through. Walter "replaced" his son, we know Belly has a hand in the "events", these are all people from this world not the "alterverse".

Also, if you listen to the comments from the SciFiWire link they put a much more positive spin on the alterverse, then you would expect.

As for showing the Twin Towers, ehh I dont see the big deal really (showing them standing), I thought it was a brilliant thing to do given the circumstances.

JJ likes to use lens flares, so we may just see them for what they are, a visual effect. If we take the lens flare as it was used last night, then we can consider them "weak points" in our universe, not that someone had to cross, it was just a "weak point". As we saw not every place is able to have things cross over, so I would see them as weak points, where there is a flash of the alterverse, but not enough to make someone\ hing to cross over.
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post #1353 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 07:14 PM
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My first thought when Olivia made the switch into the "alternate reality" and Walter saw that Peter was dead, that the reality she switched into was ours, and that their reality was in fact the "alternate" one. Apparently that isn't the case.

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post #1354 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob316 View Post

I like to know how NINA SHARP communicated with Bishop, remember she told OLIVIA that she communicated electronically with him, I assumed she meant email, now I am not so sure.

I'm pretty sure she was talking about Bell not Bishop...But yes, as someone already posted, I'm believe that in all of Billy's talents, I'm sure he was able to "make" a transdimentional comm device. In the world of Fringe, nothing is really off limits.

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post #1355 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAF View Post

I had always thought that Walter did something bad like bringing Peter back to life. When I realized he was from the alternate universe...wow.

In fairness, stealing babies is a fairly common behavior among primates.
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post #1356 of 6444 Old 05-13-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atagert View Post

I watched the last 2 together. I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned in the thread of the star trek reference. The "spock" in fringe sorta described the star trek movie, and the dude was a character in Star Trek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek Enterprise.

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post #1357 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 08:52 AM
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We we able to watch the final episode last night and enjoyed the surprise of finding out we live about 5 miles from "Reisen Lake" (or spelled something like that).

Great series, looking forward to season two.
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post #1358 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 12:36 PM
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People have speculated that the Kennedy referenced on the front page of the newspaper was Jack Kennedy and that in that universe he was never assassinated.

I propose that the photo is Ted Kennedy and in that universe Chappaquidick never happened and he WAS elected to the presidency.
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post #1359 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 01:10 PM
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Nope. Watch the video linked by AAF, the Exec Producer states it's JFK:

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Originally Posted by AAF View Post

Via scifi wire, here's Fringe executive producer Jeff Pinkner explaining the closing images from the finale:

http://www.fox.com/fod/play.php?sh=f...=1242155273300

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post #1360 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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Wow wow wow. Up until the finale, I thought Peter was some clone or was experimentally altered in some way...but from the alternate universe? o_O He must not have been sick there and that's why he doesn't remember the coins...because Walter said he collected coins to take his mind off the sickness. But something bad must have happened to make Walter so paranoid about using this technology anymore.

I was wondering what the reaction would be to the World Trade Center. I'm glad to see everyone thinks it is "kosher". I, too, don't think we should pretend they never existed. (And wow I never heard that studios erased them from old movies. I heard Spider-Man was delayed in order to re-shoot some things, but not backdating changes. Interesting.)

Well if the finale doesn't generate interest in this show for 2nd season, nothing will. I see this show taking off upon its return and DVD sales/rentals doing VERY well...no matter what reality we're in.
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post #1361 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgefamus View Post

My first thought was - can they do that? Next thought was - should they have done that? I thought WTC portrayal was off limits.

That scene doesn't work without it....how else to demonstrate that they live in teh present (obamas on the front page) but in a different reality? Maybe a smoking Statue of Liberty...but nothing would have that kind of impact.

There will be people who will never be able to let go of WTC and 911...hell I still cringe when I see it in old movies, but that's what made it so powerful.

I'm no expert....so your mileage may vary
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post #1362 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

Wow wow wow. Up until the finale, I thought Peter was some clone or was experimentally altered in some way...but from the alternate universe? o_O He must not have been sick there and that's why he doesn't remember the coins...because Walter said he collected coins to take his mind off the sickness. But something bad must have happened to make Walter so paranoid about using this technology anymore.

I was wondering if he made the device that could plug the hole so he could prevent another Walter from coming and taking Peter back.
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post #1363 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I thought the device was evocative and tremendously effective but certainly not offensive.

I agree. For me that single image convincingly conveyed a different reality, similar to seeing the ruins of the Statue of Liberty at the end of Planet of the Apes. Although the latter was more mind bending.
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post #1364 of 6444 Old 05-14-2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djb61230 View Post

I was wondering if he made the device that could plug the hole so he could prevent another Walter from coming and taking Peter back.

Personally besides my theory above, I think that Walter might be trying to hide his tracks of what HE actually did. Walter acts ashamed that he actually stole Peter from the alternate reality after loosing him. Also, by plugging the holes he prevents Peter from ever finding out the truth and hating him for what he did.
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post #1365 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Adams View Post

I agree. For me that single image convincingly conveyed a different reality, similar to seeing the ruins of the Statue of Liberty at the end of Planet of the Apes. Although the latter was more mind bending.

The thing that makes the Planet of the Apes ending so effective is that the whole movie is spent at a late medieval or Renaissance level of technology among the apes, so your mind is completely unprepared for the ending.

What makes the WTC effective for Fringe is that it isn't 100% kosher to use the WTC. Fringe gets a bit of a pass because, well, it's Fringe. I mean, we're already talking about a show whose core plot involves sometimes lethal medical experimentation on children. It's a screwed up enough show that the audience, after 20 episodes, has pretty much self-selected down to people that would be OK with using the WTC.

You want ballsy? Let me know when they do an episode attacking Scientology.
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post #1366 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iteki View Post

That scene doesn't work without it....how else to demonstrate that they live in teh present (obamas on the front page) but in a different reality? Maybe a smoking Statue of Liberty...but nothing would have that kind of impact.

There will be people who will never be able to let go of WTC and 911...hell I still cringe when I see it in old movies, but that's what made it so powerful.

I concur and was just askin'. The "power" of the shot prompted my thoughts. It certainly left no doubt as the where/when Olivia landed when she stepped out of the elevator.
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post #1367 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:27 AM
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In a behind-the-scenes note, it looks like the "Fringe will return in 60/90 seconds" is over. Fox said the two shows they tried this on isn't monetarily working. (Reference is the "Latest News" thread.)
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post #1368 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

In a behind-the-scenes note, it looks like the "Fringe will return in 60/90 seconds" is over. Fox said the two shows they tried this on isn't monetarily working. (Reference is the "Latest News" thread.)

darn it was so easy to click two times on my tivo for 60 and three for 90...
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post #1369 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by nikeykid View Post

darn it was so easy to click two times on my tivo for 60 and three for 90...



That's why I'm surprised they didn't stop it in the middle of the season. It makes no sense to tell the viewer how long the commercial break will be.

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post #1370 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:47 AM
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I'm glad they showed the twin towers there's a double standard here. Why is it okay to show images of Auschwitz, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki incidents over and over again even make movies about it, but the minute you mention or show any footage of 9/11 or the WTC towers some people have a Cow over it? That's the whole purpose of terrorism and the general masses fall right into it. One thing that sticks in my mind that was told to us by a terrorism expert at a class I attended who had just returned from Israel was that after an attack even though there has been death and destruction they clean the area up that has been affected and go on with business as best and quickly as they can, sometimes the same day! They said by doing so it takes away the hope that the terrorists have somehow broken them!
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post #1371 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:50 AM
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I think it was meant for non-tivo live users. Kind of a note that this break will be short so don't channel surf.
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post #1372 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsambuca View Post

I think it was meant for non-tivo live users. Kind of a note that this break will be short so don't channel surf.

I didn't think about that. Although before tiVo I time shifted with a VCR. I've been skipping over commercials since 1984.

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post #1373 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iteki View Post

That scene doesn't work without it....how else to demonstrate that they live in teh present (obamas on the front page) but in a different reality? Maybe a smoking Statue of Liberty...but nothing would have that kind of impact.

There will be people who will never be able to let go of WTC and 911...hell I still cringe when I see it in old movies, but that's what made it so powerful.

Is "letting go" of 9-11 the objective to be achieved here? Is anyone under the misapprehension that that is what is objectionable in a depiction of the twin towers -- that such depictions can only serve to ruffle those that can't forget about it? What kind of mind set is that?

I dare say that no American who lived that day, or anyone on the globe for that matter, is going to let it go -- banish it to an area of the mind where it no longer matters or has any significance in our lives. Even if this banishing act could be accomplished, is that a desirable goal? If anything, I should think it would remain uppermost in our considerations of anything having to do with global politics or even any human interaction -- it speaks that deeply to our plight and condition as humans on this Earth.

The reason images were altered in the aftermath of the tragedy was not that it was considered offensive -- what is anyone thinking here? The reason was that inclusion of the twin towers represented something entirely different in the scheme of the productions when they were filmed -- now these structures symbolize something altogether removed from the original objective, so that they serve only to derail the flow of a given piece. I might have my objection to this kind of post-production rethinking, but it falls into the realm of editing out that which no longer serves the gestalt, in very much the same way as scenes are trimmed from any effort to maintain the dramatic flow at the desired pace.

In this latest case, FRINGE used the towers as a somewhat cheap visual shorthand, to make a dramatic point about an alternate dimension shift. Yes, it had drama. Yes, it was an instantaneous visual to make a cliffhanger impact. And of course the objection would be NOT that they were shown at all, but that it reduces something of profound impact to a visual punchline in effect. It lightens and cheapens the event to make it fodder for entertainment undertaken as a commercial enterprise.

I don't necessarily myself interpret it in those terms alone, but please let us not be confused here as to why folks might be sensitive to this use of the imagery. Also too, we are dealing with a shortened time span here -- unlike the dropping of Atomic weapons and the holocaust which are at something of a more respectful, reflective historical remove -- some possibly adequate time to digest has been afforded these events, but still, used in the wrong context they can most certainly ignite passions all over again -- a recent very public example was Joan Rivers comparing a rival to Hitler.

I think there is some truth in the contention that FRINGE did intentionally push the envelope with this -- it actually does seem in line with a tone and style of presentation already established, not that there is anything particularly meritorious in that kind of iconoclastic edge, so to speak, simply that they have seemingly achieved what they sought here.
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post #1374 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Is "letting go" of 9-11 the objective to be achieved here? Is anyone under the misapprehension that that is what is objectionable in a depiction of the twin towers -- that such depictions can only serve to ruffle those that can't forget about it? What kind of mind set is that?

LOL not really sure my comment warranted a small book. And I'm very ok with my 'mindset', but thanks for your concern.

I thought I was clear about what I was trying to say: There are some people for whom 9/11 or WTC imagery will always be considered offensive and exploitative.

There will be no amount of time or healing that can make them be ok with 9/11 being treated as anything but a taboo subject. Letting go in my case means moving on and accepting the horrors of that day as something that happened in the past. It is a vital part of our modern American history that should never be forgotten. But I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen just so I don't have to re-live the pain.

To make it even more crystal clear: I reacted VERY strongly to Fringe's use of the WTC...but I was not offended. There will be some who will react strongly and will ALWAYS be offended that such imagery was used as a dramatic tool in a TV show. Those people, in my view, haven't moved on or let go.

I'm no expert....so your mileage may vary
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post #1375 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Is "letting go" of 9-11 the objective to be achieved here? Is anyone under the misapprehension that that is what is objectionable in a depiction of the twin towers -- that such depictions can only serve to ruffle those that can't forget about it? What kind of mind set is that?

I dare say that no American who lived that day, or anyone on the globe for that matter, is going to let it go -- banish it to an area of the mind where it no longer matters or has any significance in our lives. Even if this banishing act could be accomplished, is that a desirable goal? If anything, I should think it would remain uppermost in our considerations of anything having to do with global politics or even any human interaction -- it speaks that deeply to our plight and condition as humans on this Earth.

The reason images were altered in the aftermath of the tragedy was not that it was considered offensive -- what is anyone thinking here? The reason was that inclusion of the twin towers represented something entirely different in the scheme of the productions when they were filmed -- now these structures symbolize something altogether removed from the original objective, so that they serve only to derail the flow of a given piece. I might have my objection to this kind of post-production rethinking, but it falls into the realm of editing out that which no longer serves the gestalt, in very much the same way as scenes are trimmed from any effort to maintain the dramatic flow at the desired pace.

In this latest case, FRINGE used the towers as a somewhat cheap visual shorthand, to make a dramatic point about an alternate dimension shift. Yes, it had drama. Yes, it was an instantaneous visual to make a cliffhanger impact. And of course the objection would be NOT that they were shown at all, but that it reduces something of profound impact to a visual punchline in effect. It lightens and cheapens the event to make it fodder for entertainment undertaken as a commercial enterprise.

I don't necessarily myself interpret it in those terms alone, but please let us not be confused here as to why folks might be sensitive to this use of the imagery. Also too, we are dealing with a shortened time span here -- unlike the dropping of Atomic weapons and the holocaust which are at something of a more respectful, reflective historical remove -- some possibly adequate time to digest has been afforded these events, but still, used in the wrong context they can most certainly ignite passions all over again -- a recent very public example was Joan Rivers comparing a rival to Hitler.

I think there is some truth in the contention that FRINGE did intentionally push the envelope with this -- it actually does seem in line with a tone and style of presentation already established, not that there is anything particularly meritorious in that kind of iconoclastic edge, so to speak, simply that they have seemingly achieved what they sought here.

I agree entirely. In this age of political correctness, some are going to take offense at almost anything, whether doing so makes sense or not. Pandering to such attitudes is counterproductive, it seems to me. What the Fringe writers did in the season finale was, indeed, gut wrenching but what scene in any movie showing the Twin Towers is not? Any scene as evocative as that one requires a bit of envelope pushing but I thought the Fringe writers put it to good use here.
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post #1376 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 12:30 PM
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I also don't understand the over sensitivity of seeing the twin towers either. There have been a few movies and probably a TV show or two that have shown them since then. Now if they went as far as showing planes heading toward them for the sake of an alternate story line then yeah that might be too far. But like the previous poster commented, is every tragic event off limits from the past? Alot of people died in New Orleans with hurricane Katrina but by no means is anyone trying to avoid scenes shot there. Yes I understand that is a natural disaster versus terrorism but those folks also died.
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post #1377 of 6444 Old 05-15-2009, 09:56 PM
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I'm ok with it. The towers have appeared in other series, ie life on Mars. It just an alternative reality where some different choices have been made. Like the towers were missed but the white house was hit. It is just one of the most current examples of who something could be different that we would recognize. It would have been way different had they used footage of the day.

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post #1378 of 6444 Old 05-16-2009, 08:47 AM
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But the Towers did not just appear here as part of the landscape as they did in Life on Mars. They were used for as a primary visual effect to bring more "wow" to the season finale of the show. As I see it, the use of the Towers for this scene was exploitative, but I did not think it was in the realm of bad taste and obviously it was was effective.
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post #1379 of 6444 Old 05-16-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsra13 View Post

I think it was great.
I think it was a really bad idea when they started digital removing the towers from older shows/movies/trailers, remember when that happened?
Nowadays I can see older Friends episodes and the Twin Towers are showed.



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Originally Posted by TakeFlight View Post

I've never understood this sense that we should forget those towers ever existed. Taking it to the extreme of removing the towers from shows/movies that pre-date 9/11/01. The towers did exist, planes crashed into them, now they no longer exist. Yes, it was horrible, Yes, thousands of people died. But they DID exist and there's no reason why they should be off limits anymore than anything else that once existed and no longer does. Should we not mention a famous actor that has passed on? Or worse, have a present day actor portray a deceased actor? What's the difference?


I don't remember the Towers being removed from any TV show or movies that were set in times prior to 9/11/2001. I believe they were removed from some movies that were set in "the future"--post-9/11-- that still showed the Towers. It was done for accuracy, not to whitewash anything.
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post #1380 of 6444 Old 05-16-2009, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by atyclb View Post

I don't remember the Towers being removed from any TV show or movies that were set in times prior to 9/11/2001. I believe they were removed from some movies that were set in "the future"--post-9/11-- that still showed the Towers. It was done for accuracy, not to whitewash anything.

Here's a comprehensive list of appearances by the WTC in popular culture. Only reference I see to editing out an appearance of the WTC in the wake of 9/11 was a 2002 airing by ABC of Armageddon, in which the WTC is struck several times during a meteor shower.

Anyway, I found the final scene excellent and I wouldn't change a thing. I don't believe anyone could consider that use of the WTC offensive.


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