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post #181 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mentalist5.1 View Post

I liked his acting in the brief minutes we got to see him on Mentalist, wish he could have stuck around for a bit longer.

He was one of the best on "West Wing." He stuck around for that for 8 years. Get the DVDs, starting with the first year. WW received multiple awards every year. It slowly died during the final "Jimmy Smits" year, however.
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post #182 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by danc8379 View Post

Well, it wasn't actually self-defense, but since Red John had the gun in his hand, and I believe still he had the gun pointed at Jane inside the newspaper. So I would think that a self-defense argument would hold up pretty well...

In the real world it wouldn't hold up at all. In TV land, probably. He might have better luck going with temp insanity based on his belief that this man killed his wife and kid.
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post #183 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

In the real world it wouldn't hold up at all. In TV land, probably. He might have better luck going with temp insanity based on his belief that this man killed his wife and kid.

I disagree 100%.

Even in the "real world", if you shoot the serial killer that killed your wife, son and many others - and he has a pistol in his hand - you'll have no problem establishing a case of self-defense.
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post #184 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I disagree 100%.

Even in the "real world", if you shoot the serial killer that killed your wife, son and many others - and he has a pistol in his hand - you'll have no problem establishing a case of self-defense.

You may disagree, but based purely on law, when RJ walked away Jane was no longer in danger. He re-initiated the contact, he does not have the right to take the law into his own hands. At that point he was not defending himself. Had he shot RJ under the table while they were sitting there and the gun was pointed at him, sure, self defense.

Now would a jury convict him? Probably not but by law they absolutely could. It would not be a hard argument to label it 1st degree murder based on premeditation considering he essentially lured RJ and he carried a gun, which he never does, and his sole intention apparently was to kill RJ. It will be interesting how they spin this next season.
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post #185 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I disagree 100%.

Even in the "real world", if you shoot the serial killer that killed your wife, son and many others - and he has a pistol in his hand - you'll have no problem establishing a case of self-defense.

First of all to establish the affirmative defense of "self defense" Jane must show that he (jane) was not the aggressor. Jane must show that he had an imminent reasonable fear for his life or great bodily harm from RJ. Also, if he did fear for his life he has a duty to retreat if he can do so, before using deadly force as a last resort.

Clearly Jane was the aggressor. Clearly Jane did not fear for his life at the moment he pulled the trigger.

Jane needs a good defense attorney and go for "jury nullification".

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post #186 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 05:36 PM
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Newfer jumping in here. If RJ can get people to jump off balconies, then he is easily capable of getting another to present himself to Jane at the mall. Would Jane read him correctly? I don't know. Someone tipped RJ that Jane and the Bertram would be at the mall. Cho, Rigsby, Director Bertram, Lisbon. Good chance that LaRoche gave the station attendent a hand cuff key enabling an escape attempt and an excuse to kill him before he could be questioned further.
With respect to Patrick and self defense. He doesn't care. He kept his promise to Bosco to take RJ out when given the chance. RJ exposed himself due to huberous. He was two steps behind Jane, as Jane stated and was taken by surprise that Jane out foxed him.
I hope RJ is dead. The show's arc will hopefully focus on closing out the background of RJ, who are the rest of his associates and how he held power over them.
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post #187 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

You may disagree, but based purely on law, when RJ walked away Jane was no longer in danger. He re-initiated the contact, he does not have the right to take the law into his own hands. At that point he was not defending himself. Had he shot RJ under the table while they were sitting there and the gun was pointed at him, sure, self defense.

Now would a jury convict him? Probably not but by law they absolutely could. It would not be a hard argument to label it 1st degree murder based on premeditation considering he essentially lured RJ and he carried a gun, which he never does, and his sole intention apparently was to kill RJ. It will be interesting how they spin this next season.

You're assuming the jury would see everything we saw and know happened. And re-initiating contact doesn't matter as long as he claims that he didn't fear for his life until just before he shot and he noticed the guy's gun.

This would be an easy slam-dunk self defense case - if he wants it to be.
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post #188 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

First of all to establish the affirmative defense of "self defense" Jane must show that he (jane) was not the aggressor. Jane must show that he had an imminent reasonable fear for his life or great bodily harm from RJ.

Who is a jury going to believe, the stand-up guy that helped out the CBI on numerous cases, or the dead serial killer?


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Also, if he did fear for his life he has a duty to retreat if he can do so, before using deadly force as a last resort.

All he needs to do is prove he had a gun and he thought he was going to use it. Only a moron would suggest that you can retreat faster than the speed of a bullet.
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post #189 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 06:44 PM
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Bradley Whitford was chilling as RJ...or was he?

1. Jane couldn't give a rat's ass about his defense.
2. He wasn't convinced it was really RJ until the big reveal.
3. He may still have been wrong.

The way the showrunner's get Jane out of the pokey on this is immaterial. It will be TV logic 101. He'll get out fairly soon.

Even with TV logic there is no rational way that RJ could be so connected and have minions ready and willing to give up the ghost. The improbability factor is already past 11. There's only one explanation.

A cult.

There's only one focus for a cult and that Malcolm McDowell's little group.

It's not like it's unusual for this show to be predictable. Pretty much every one off ep identifies the culprit in the first 10 minutes. What's entertaining is the journey. This over-arc has been telegraphed for quite awhile, but this season finale cemented it as a certainty. Whether RJ was a stand in or a cult member, Malcolm McDowell has always been the Big Bad.

Sorry if I spoiled it for anyone. It's a speculation, but unless they've go totally off the rails, it's the only solution that makes sense.

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post #190 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

You're assuming the jury would see everything we saw and know happened. And re-initiating contact doesn't matter as long as he claims that he didn't fear for his life until just before he shot and he noticed the guy's gun.

This would be an easy slam-dunk self defense case - if he wants it to be.

I assume they will see what we saw because the mall apparently has video focused right where they were as seen when Rigsby was watching from the monitor room. It still does not change the fact that Jane brought a gun, concealed(which, given his aversion to guns, he does not have a conceal cary permit). I think a prosecutor would easily have a "slam-dunk" firts degree murder case if he chose to do so. And mikey mo is abolutely right: Jane has a duty to retreat if he feels threatened. If he ever truly felt threatened it would have been during the inital contact at the table. Anyway, no need to continue the argument He's not going to get life or be executed. This is TV not real life.
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post #191 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 08:55 PM
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I just really hope they don't do a multiple episode story arc with Patrick in prison. I could see them trying that, though....him having to use his ability to read and manipulate others to survive, help convicts turn their lives around, etc. It didn't work for "My Name is Earl" and I hope they don't try here.
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post #192 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 10:30 PM
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Sixth episode of last season, "Black Gold and Red Blood"... the one where Jane went to jail. And it was hilarious.
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post #193 of 710 Old 05-25-2011, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

You may disagree, but based purely on law, when RJ walked away Jane was no longer in danger. He re-initiated the contact, he does not have the right to take the law into his own hands. At that point he was not defending himself.

Shooting an fleeing armed murder suspect who was suspected of multiple murders that day alone. Screw "self defense."
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post #194 of 710 Old 05-26-2011, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Who is a jury going to believe, the stand-up guy that helped out the CBI on numerous cases, or the dead serial killer?

I have to assume that the DA can present as evidence what we saw by eye witness testimony or video surveillance tapes.




All he needs to do is prove he had a gun and he thought he was going to use it. Only a moron would suggest that you can retreat faster than the speed of a bullet.

Jane saying that he believed RJ "was going to use the gun" is not enough. Jane's belief must have been reasonable.

Keep in mind what actually happened. The moment RJ turned and walked away so did any hope of "self defense". Jane went after him. Remember "self defense" is an affirmative defense meaning Jane has the burden of proving the elements required for this defense.

Keep in mind, also, that Jane initiated the confrontation by going over to RJ's table.

Based on what we saw, I would rather prosecute than defend. As I said previously, my only concern as a prosecutor would be jury nullification.

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post #195 of 710 Old 05-26-2011, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

Jane saying that he believed RJ "was going to use the gun" is not enough. Jane's belief must have been reasonable.

It's time to get a new jury selection process if we're to the point that they think that someone like "Red John" using a gun is unreasonable.

Now if they have audio, it would be tough, but if Jane is allowed to fill in all the blanks, the jury would be putty in his hands.
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post #196 of 710 Old 05-26-2011, 08:57 AM
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How do they know this is Red John? Smells? Creepiness? He could have been coached.

I suspect we will see more of Red John. This was all too pat, somehow.

CW Hinkle
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post #197 of 710 Old 05-26-2011, 10:23 AM
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Now if they have audio, it would be tough, but if Jane is allowed to fill in all the blanks, the jury would be putty in his hands.

There you go.

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post #198 of 710 Old 05-26-2011, 11:20 PM
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post #199 of 710 Old 05-27-2011, 08:19 AM
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"Mentalist" showrunner Bruno Heller talks about the Season Finale: http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/05/26/the-mentalist-finale/.

Thanks for the link.

Not sure if Heller answered the RJ being dead question, but sort of leaned that way. I would be disappointed if it's not RJ who was killed. There are still a lot of questions w.r.t. how RJ controlled his contacts to the point that they kill and commit suicide to protect him so his death doesn't end the mystery. It just expands the story arc. I'm leaning towards the Malcolm McDowell character as someone who could have an organization that could do that. Perhaps a RJ like killing is the ultimate initiation rite of passage into the inner circle.
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post #200 of 710 Old 05-27-2011, 10:27 AM
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Thanks for the link.

Not sure if Heller answered the RJ being dead question, but sort of leaned that way. I would be disappointed if it's not RJ who was killed. There are still a lot of questions w.r.t. how RJ controlled his contacts to the point that they kill and commit suicide to protect him so his death doesn't end the mystery. It just expands the story arc. I'm leaning towards the Malcolm McDowell character as someone who could have an organization that could do that. Perhaps a RJ like killing is the ultimate initiation rite of passage into the inner circle.

It's the only existing plotline that makes any logical sense, considering the behavior of RJs minions. Good idea on the initiation ritual which does open the door to multiple RJs.

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post #201 of 710 Old 05-27-2011, 03:36 PM
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I think Malcom McDowell is the leader, the general if you will, and RJ is Sgt or higher and his "minions" are just soldiers.
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post #202 of 710 Old 05-27-2011, 03:45 PM
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Great season end-er. I figured out the hit-woman rope to swing down to the next floor. Backed up the DVR to see who was on that floor... and noticed that LaRoche had JJ LaRoche by his photo.

So... what if the fat bald guy is named John J. LaRoche and was a red-headed step child as a kid, and was known as "Red John"...

Jane needs to lure him into a steam bath and see if the red carpet is still there, seeing as how the drapes are now gone. His eyes are spooky strange.

At any rate, I really enjoyed the two hour finale. Great job by the writers and actors.

Nystagmus: uncontrolled rapid eye movements, congenital and acquired. Acquired usually occurs because of an inner rear disorder or from brain damage.
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post #203 of 710 Old 05-27-2011, 07:01 PM
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Nystagmus: uncontrolled rapid eye movements, congenital and acquired. Acquired usually occurs because of an inner rear disorder or from brain damage.

Seriously????
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post #204 of 710 Old 05-30-2011, 01:52 PM
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Jane needs a good defense attorney and go for "jury nullification".

In a fantasy match-up, Alan Shorr from Boston Legal would be a good choice.
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post #205 of 710 Old 06-04-2011, 08:24 AM
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I'd go with Denny Crane and his useless NRA radicals.
(I miss Boston Legal)

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post #206 of 710 Old 07-30-2011, 02:13 PM
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I have been thinking about this show all summer. I keep wondering how they are going to get Jane out of a murder rap. Anybody have any info or NEW ideas?

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post #207 of 710 Old 07-30-2011, 04:35 PM
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I don't know, but I bet it'll be entertaining.
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post #208 of 710 Old 07-30-2011, 05:11 PM
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I have been thinking about this show all summer. I keep wondering how they are going to get Jane out of a murder rap. Anybody have any info or NEW ideas?

Hypnotize the jury?

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post #209 of 710 Old 08-01-2011, 01:23 PM
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I have been thinking about this show all summer. I keep wondering how they are going to get Jane out of a murder rap. Anybody have any info or NEW ideas?

Honestly, I don't think Jame cares about beating a murder rap. His sole reason for existence was to hunt down and kill Red John which he presumably has done. He repeated this mantra often.

Jane didn't care about whether he lived or died as long as he was able to avenge his wife and daughter's death. Now that Red John is possibly gone, Jane is at peace with whatever happens in his life. He still won't have true contentment until he is reunited with his family which of course means he has to die as well.

I believe next season will be spent with Patrick in a facility of some kind - likely a psychiatric institution. The theme will be wrapped around whether that was Red John or not. His friends at the CBI will be convinced it was RJ, but Jane will have a nagging feeling that it wasn't.
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post #210 of 710 Old 08-01-2011, 04:12 PM
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Honestly, I don't think Jame cares about beating a murder rap. His sole reason for existence was to hunt down and kill Red John which he presumably has done. He repeated this mantra often.

Jane didn't care about whether he lived or died as long as he was able to avenge his wife and daughter's death. Now that Red John is possibly gone, Jane is at peace with whatever happens in his life. He still won't have true contentment until he is reunited with his family which of course means he has to die as well.

I believe next season will be spent with Patrick in a facility of some kind - likely a psychiatric institution. The theme will be wrapped around whether that was Red John or not. His friends at the CBI will be convinced it was RJ, but Jane will have a nagging feeling that it wasn't
.

...and be correct, which will give him motivation to beat the wrap. RJ, IMO, isn't one guy. There have been enough hints, so I'm not going to say anymore, but the quest will undoubtably continue.

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