So, which NFL telecaster actually gives the screen to the viewer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Tonight, after watching the Jets game on MNF, I decided to take it upon myself to see which broadcaster actually gives the viewer more of the screen decicated to the actual game and not lattice or blackened out portions that NEVER get used (unless they go to a replay in which usually all bugs are gone except for a grayed network identifier).

The snapshots I used were either taken by me or by other users on AVS.

If I've made any errors, please let me know.

The numbers in parenthesis denote how much room is taken up by graphics while a play is being run live, with a screenshot provided.

I used x,y coordinates and simple algebra to figure out how many pixels were taken up by graphics, and divided by the total number of pixels to get a percentage.

#1. NFL Network (~2.7778%)


-------------------

#2. CBS (~7.66333%)


The scoreline used to denote other scores around the league takes up 4.8% of the screen.

-------------------

#3. FOX (13.8889%)


This could be could down to a little as ~1.56%, taking away portions of the graphic that never get used. If you still want to see out of town scores, the graphics could inflate to as much as ~2.36%.

-------------------

#4t. ESPN (15.8333%)


Look at the bottom at how much of the screen ESPN gives us. Oh, wait, it's completely covered up with a nice red and black. ESPN could shrink this down to as little as ~2.23%. And if you need to be constantly remind that that football game you happened to stumble upon on Monday night is ESPN Monday Night Football, it could take up only ~3.45%. And if you forget what the down and yardage is, it would balloon up to $4.44%. Still, not too bad.

-------------------

#4t. NBC (~15.91%)


Could be shrunken down to ~3.953% without all that lattice that serves the important purpose of...
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post #2 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 04:33 PM
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it figures that the channel with the least # of games wins.

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post #3 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 05:17 PM
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The reason NFL Network doesn't clutter the screen is because they can't afford to upgrade their graphics package. Which is also why that colorful and beautiful Total Access studio that just screams for HD, isn't in HD. The NFL is hangin' by a thread, people. True, I'm tellin' ya its true.


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post #4 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 05:26 PM
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After the NFL Net, which should get a pass because by Thursday night its been 3 days since another game (no need for scores or info bar), I like CBS. You get everything with the least intrusion.

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post #5 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 05:44 PM
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The nice thing about the NFL Network, you can see the entire field of play without any clutter. What a concept!
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post #6 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

After the NFL Net, which should get a pass because by Thursday night its been 3 days since another game (no need for scores or info bar), I like CBS. You get everything with the least intrusion.

Someone write this date down. I agree with KenH, but I do like NFL net and hope they don't change. What I do not understand is the need for "ball on: PHI 22" text when the blue and yellow lines are right there infront of your eyes and the numbers on the field have arrows
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post #7 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vurbano View Post

What I do not understand is the need for "ball on 22 yard line " text

I believe CBS only does that at the beginning of a drive. It's 14:55 in the 3rd, so the Eagles just returned a kickoff. I think they only do it at the beginning of a drive or when they return from commercial, not all the time.
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post #8 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 06:01 PM
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If any good can come out of job reductions/layoffs let it be in the graphics dept of ALL the networks, esp ESPN. Sorry to those talented people in those depts but enough is enough. I didn't pay large sums of money to have a 16x9 screen only to have it boxed down to 4x3 for the benefit of keeping graphics engineers employeed. Give me back my full screen. Get rid of the most irritating of all graphics....the endless scroll.
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post #9 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 06:12 PM
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I could do without ALL of the graphics myself. Why not just run them between plays, for the folks who are not paying attention to the game.

It's very refreshing to watch an OLD game and see the lack of graphics. You used to get the score when they went to break. IF you are really watching the game, you know the score.

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post #10 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 06:28 PM
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If CBS would kill the GameTrax Bar on the bottom, CBS would be perfect. If CBS wants to post the other scores, make a small box on the offside of the main score box. All the Fantasy Geek junk is worthless since they likely are using realtime info from the net, as well as having it customized. I didn't measure it up, but the GameTrax seem to take more screen real estate than the main score box.
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post #11 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonoughDawg View Post

I could do without ALL of the graphics myself. Why not just run them between plays, for the folks who are not paying attention to the game.

It's very refreshing to watch an OLD game and see the lack of graphics. You used to get the score when they went to break. IF you are really watching the game, you know the score.

thats would suck cause i wanna also know:

1. down & distance
2. time left in qtr
3. time left on 40 sec clock
4. time outs left

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post #12 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles O View Post

but the GameTrax seem to take more screen real estate than the main score box.

GameTrax takes up 4.8% of the screen, while the main scorebox takes up ~2.86% (including the spot of ball and down and distance).
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post #13 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 07:21 PM
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NFL Network's bar is still pretty intrusive in terms of size and (at least as of last year) it expanded and contracted the same way ESPN's does. http://www.realityx.com/ (navigate to Realtime 3D under reels they have CBS, ESPN and NFL Network graphics its a great comparison).
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post #14 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcowboy7 View Post

thats would suck cause i wanna also know:

1. down & distance
2. time left in qtr
3. time left on 40 sec clock
4. time outs left

Like I said, if you are watching the game, you know mostly all of that..also, I said for the folks not paying attention, put it up between plays. They have yellow lines, blue lines, stupid looking bubbles etc. all over the field. How much is enough?

Really, unless you are the QB, why does it matter how much time is on the play clock?

It's amazing how much JUNK folks want on the screen. I guess I'm just in a dream land, not wanting close to 20% of the screen taken up with useless graphics.

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post #15 of 73 Old 09-23-2008, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonoughDawg View Post

Like I said, if you are watching the game, you know mostly all of that..also, I said for the folks not paying attention, put it up between plays. They have yellow lines, blue lines, stupid looking bubbles etc. all over the field. How much is enough?

Really, unless you are the QB, why does it matter how much time is on the play clock?

It's amazing how much JUNK folks want on the screen. I guess I'm just in a dream land, not wanting close to 20% of the screen taken up with useless graphics.

1. im watching multiple games on sunday at once so i cant keep track of each teams time outs left.
2. i like to see the 40 sec clock tick down as the qb is getting ready to snap the ball.
3. if they just flash it on the screen like u said between plays while im watching another game and i miss it then im lost on down, time etc.

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post #16 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcowboy7 View Post

1. im watching multiple games on sunday at once so i cant keep track of each teams time outs left.

3. if they just flash it on the screen like u said between plays while im watching another game and i miss it then im lost on down, time etc.

I think that is how we get graphic overload. You have people who watch multiple games and can’t keep up with any of them without help from graphics to inform them. You have people who are into fantasy football and need to know every stat and score. Then you have people who flip on a game and don’t have the patience to wait for updates. I have to think these people comprise a rather large section of their focal groups and this is how they come to the decision to list every friggin’ stat they can show. Stats are one thing, but why would any intelligently run department want to degrade their product by eliminating a portion of that product by blacking it out with colorful lines and diagonal stripes? What focal group said I see too much of the action on the screen and I want you to put up black bars so I can’t see so much? I don’t see this getting any better, only worse.
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post #17 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

The reason NFL Network doesn’t clutter the screen is because they can’t afford to upgrade their graphics package. Which is also why that colorful and beautiful Total Access studio that just screams for HD, isn’t in HD. The NFL is hangin’ by a thread, people. True, I’m tellin’ ya its true.



nfl network is the biggest cheapskate in America. maybe we should let NFL owners run the Feds.
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post #18 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 07:02 AM
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Great work, jpr. My kind of analysis.

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post #19 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

I think that is how we get graphic overload. You have people who watch multiple games and can't keep up with any of them without help from graphics to inform them. You have people who are into fantasy football and need to know every stat and score. Then you have people who flip on a game and don't have the patience to wait for updates. I have to think these people comprise a rather large section of their focal groups and this is how they come to the decision to list every friggin' stat they can show.

I would venture to guess that your average viewer has a compartmentalized view of game watching. If your focus group asks them what stats they want to see, they probably aren't answering that question in relationship to how much screen space they want. Those are really two different questions. The other thing is screen real estate may not as big of an issue to viewers as one might think especially in this age of the internet where overload is common. Got to remember we're HD-philes and nuts about this stuff - we have a heightened since of awareness when 0.1666 of the screen is covered, most people do not.

This thread is concerned with loss of screen space, but the most complaints come when graphics are disruptive like TNT's pop ups that just kinda appear. Since all the score bars on all networks are up ubiquitously, in many cases they aren't perceived as being as much of a graphic distraction. Now if they squeeze back the whole game and turn it into CNBC (basically the unfortunate direction NASCAR coverage is taking) people will complain quickly. Because that breaks the mold that people have come to expect when watching football. Sports is tough because on the one hand you want to be ambitious and try to cover the event in new ways but on the other hand your viewer base can be very intolerant.
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post #20 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCTV99 View Post

This thread is concerned with loss of screen space, but the most complaints come when graphics are disruptive like TNT's pop ups that just kinda appear. Since all the score bars on all networks are up ubiquitously, in many cases they aren't perceived as being as much of a graphic distraction. Now if they squeeze back the whole game and turn it into CNBC (basically the unfortunate direction NASCAR coverage is taking) people will complain quickly. Because that breaks the mold that people have come to expect when watching football. Sports is tough because on the one hand you want to be ambitious and try to cover the event in new ways but on the other hand your viewer base can be very intolerant.

To further your point, I don't think it's just "total space" on the screen.

For my eyes, I like to see only one area for graphics. So CBS is more distracting to me than the new ESPN MNF graphics. Also, placement is important. I find I can ignore the lower third graphics much easier than anything in the top. The Fox topline is especially annoying.
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post #21 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles O View Post

If CBS would kill the GameTrax Bar on the bottom, CBS would be perfect.

My thoughts exactly. I could even live with it popping up a few times an hour, but as it is now, it's a total distraction.
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post #22 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCTV99 View Post

I would venture to guess that your average viewer has a compartmentalized view of game watching. If your focus group asks them what stats they want to see, they probably aren't answering that question in relationship to how much screen space they want. Those are really two different questions. The other thing is screen real estate may not as big of an issue to viewers as one might think especially in this age of the internet where overload is common. Got to remember we're HD-philes and nuts about this stuff - we have a heightened since of awareness when 0.1666 of the screen is covered, most people do not.

Maybe this is where Perceptual Blindness comes in.
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post #23 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 08:30 AM
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Most Distracting (one AVS-er's list):
1. ESPN - we like red and black lines and useless "ESPN MNF" graphics
2. FOX - the shaded topline above the bar and unused bar sections need to be nuked
3. NBC - explain why we need the "latticework" (transparent or not) again?
4. CBS - The ticker needs to be lowered or removed completely
5. NFLN - wait till we upgrade our graphics

And 90% of the noise on the graphics need to be eliminated. Kudos to jpr as well for he analysis.
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post #24 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcowboy7 View Post

thats would suck cause i wanna also know:

1. down & distance

I think one of the most intrusive things is when they have a huge arrow, c0ck feather, etc with the down and to go, and they leave it up during the entire play. Guys run all thru it and you lose the ball carrier.
Quote:


2. time left in qtr
3. time left on 40 sec clock
4. time outs left

2. I don't think not having the time left is that big of a deal. It could take up a very small amount on the screen.
3. Why? Is it important that he got the play off with 10 seconds left compared to 9 seconds?
4. Possibly only show this in the 2nd and 4th quarter if need be? Again this could take up minimal space on the screen.

The problem is is that even though these could take up very small parts of the screen, the broadcasters make them much bigger than they need to be.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!


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post #25 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 08:33 AM
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CBS is catering to the fantasy people that are watching the games instead of tracking players online. I was trying to find the final score of the Tampa Bay-Chicago game after it went to OT. Everytime I went to our Fox game, their ticker comes off during replays. It would get to that score, then time for a replay or commercial. I went to CBS and it would take them 2 minutes to change the score from one game to another because they had to show the top stat guys from each team. After spending 15-20 minutes trying to find it, I finally went to nfl.com and got the score.
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post #26 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 08:35 AM
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A) They all "have" to protect their graphics for up to 10% over-scanning. Thats sux but its the reality.

B) NFL-N's PQ and play by play was so bad last year that I wouldn't care if they had the best graphics, they were 5 place IMO.

C) CBS's would be highest on my list if not for their blinking logo.
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post #27 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 08:52 AM
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I agree that it's a combination of size, placement and usefullness of the graphics themselves.

On a side not, does anyone remember the Fox football graphics from a couple of years ago during the holidays? The top of the screen had the usual mess plus blinking christmas lights and animated snow that fell across the top every few minutes while sleigh bells jingled. LOL!! Who in the world decided that would be a good idea??

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post #28 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 12:31 PM
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the lattice on nbc or the greying above/below the bars is required because most tvs overscan and for many the overscan is close to the score bars. so to them, it appears like 1 to a few lines of jibberish motion is moving on the bottom of the screen under the score and they can't quite tell it is the video behind it; apparently it is distracting

the reason for all the added extra crap is the whole 'value added' thing. football fans will watch their games regardelss of what you do to the picture, so those eyeballs are guranteed. they add more crap to try and attract fantasy players who may not generally watch, or the casual channel flipper who may not stay long enough to figure out what is going on. they are also trying to differentiate the brand - possibly pointless to us - but deemed useful to them, along with keeping up with the jones - aka fox has a bar, maybe we need one.

and then come the focus groups. they way they are set up they only add crap, not take it away. and the way teh questions and setups go, it looks nice for 10 seconds, but gets annoying with you have to deal with it for a whole game, and all the other wonderful crap is also added too.

and of course they hire graphics guys and companies, and graphics guys and companies are not going to sugest less graphics (ie less work)

too bad with the implementation of DTV that they didn't add an overlay feature with a button labeled 'Crap' on the remote. press 'Crap' button to get all the overlay crap, press it again to remove all the overlay crap. same would have been nice for the audio. one audio channel with just the on field and stadium surround, the other audio channel has the same with the announcers. this they could provide with the multiple audio capabilities - of course your local station would screw it up.
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post #29 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 12:50 PM
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All i need is the score, what quarter, and time clock. Thats it.
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post #30 of 73 Old 09-24-2008, 02:16 PM
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well the nfl network may be cheap, but their graphics clearly have the least amount of clutter on the screen. also the best hd pq i get for football from any network is nfl. next is cbs. none of the others are close. this is via e*.

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