The Magic 8 Ball Speaks Out On 'FOX Next-Gen Splicer update'! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Being on the west coast with the Tanberg on the EAST stream on the Wegner or HD1 on the Motorola (defaults), then that is true. Being on the east coast as I am, on the EAST stream or HD1 stream, it tracks perfectly. Videojanitor, tune the Tanberg to the WEST stream on the Wegner or HD3 on the Motorola's and you will have the west coast feed.

The Motorola's have HD1 (east feed), HD2 (mountain feed), HD3 (pacific feed) (since it is the same feed the receivers/splicers are seeing) and HD4 and HD5 and something called SPCA I think it is (I have NO idea what that is, I have never seen anything on it.)

The issue is the Tanberg's don't track with the splicer. I have never found a way to do it. The Tanberg is just a port off the ASI DA that feeds the splicer as well. Maybe the new splicers will have a tracking port on them, unlike v1. (I doubt it, but we can hope!)

SPCA may be conditional access. It may be showing up as a service in the stream.
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post #182 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

There certainly aren't enough streams (16 max at this point) to do lots of local commercials. Beyond that, understanding how they are going to switch the stream while the splicer is on-net is puzzling.

They wouldn't be doing 16 different commercials. There would probably be a 2+ way split across the time zone. Most times only 2-3. So, snow tires would air in northeast, but not in the south. Or some markets, products go by a different name. Thats the level of "local" advertising most broadcast networks do.
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post #183 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Videojanitor, tune the Tanberg to the WEST stream on the Wegner or HD3 on the Motorola's and you will have the west coast feed.

Thanks for the tip. I'm a little confused by what the Tandberg is seeing, as when I've tried to tune around, it only shows one "service" being available -- I can't find any other streams to select. When it was in the old rack, I could see East, Mountain, Pacific, etc., which came in handy at times for monitoring the East feed to see if a live event was running long. Maybe I'm doing something wrong ...

I should probably connect our MPEG analyzer to the ASI out of the C receiver to see what streams are actually there.
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post #184 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

That is what the ROSA server is for. It will splice in when the local, regional spot airs. So I have been told. We haven't gotten ours yet.

The e-mail I got made note about what the 2nd splicer was for. To which I say... D'Oh!

I thought that it was a backup for if "A" failed.

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As someone who has sat in Master Control and watched the output of the Tanberg and the output of the analog receiver, they aren't more than 1/4 of a second out of sync.

A quarter of a second would still cause a noticeable time glitch on the screen. Where it really counts is what the viewer would see when going from net to local. There is added delay when going through the local MPEG-2 encoder. What you were looking at was before the encoder. So, after going through the station's MPEG-2 encoder and the splicer is told to go local, it switches from a short delay path, compared to a longer delay path as a result of going through ASI -> HD-SDI ->plant routers,etc -> MPEG-2 encoder -> splicer. The normal path, when switched to net is ASI -> splicer.

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The splicer is seeing that same feed at the same time. Remember, what you see off air has decode latency as well.

Who cares what the decode latency is at home. That latency will always be the same, not matter the source that station is using. So that is a non-issue.

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When the splicer is first set up, there is a time routine that sets up the "splice" time for the splicer so it seamlessly switches back and forth from the "analog" path if you will and the splicer network signal. The splicer can act as a short duration DVR if you will. These things aren't done in a vacuum, even though it seems like it at times.

Now that is piece of information that was missing before. The vacuum now has some air

So, if the installers get the system timed out so that the upconverted analog (that is still a dumb thing to do to a station) will match net in the splicer, that is great. That means if a station did try and use the HD-SDI output, they'd have to try and do timing setup with that. But, if it have more delay than the analog to HD-SDI (or analog to SD-HDI) converter, that can't be fixed.

With that last piece of splicer DVR info, I am all set with what is going on with the delays.

Thanks.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a pain, this is a learning experience. If I probe enough, the needed info ultimately will appear.

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post #185 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

Thanks for the tip. I'm a little confused by what the Tandberg is seeing, as when I've tried to tune around, it only shows one "service" being available -- I can't find any other streams to select.

I wonder if Fox locked it down, only letting you see the promo and backup stream, which is one and the same (HD2 IIRC).

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post #186 of 281 Old 08-14-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

Thanks for the tip. I'm a little confused by what the Tandberg is seeing, as when I've tried to tune around, it only shows one "service" being available -- I can't find any other streams to select. When it was in the old rack, I could see East, Mountain, Pacific, etc., which came in handy at times for monitoring the East feed to see if a live event was running long. Maybe I'm doing something wrong ...

I should probably connect our MPEG analyzer to the ASI out of the C receiver to see what streams are actually there.

OH! If you are seeing SERVICE, then someone left the receiver in PID Alias mode. We had that happen here and it screwed up the audio PIDs. You will need to call LA and have them put the receiver in local and then they can tell you how to turn off PID Alias.

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post #187 of 281 Old 08-15-2009, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

OH! If you are seeing SERVICE, then someone left the receiver in PID Alias mode. We had that happen here and it screwed up the audio PIDs. You will need to call LA and have them put the receiver in local and then they can tell you how to turn off PID Alias.

PID Alias? I've not heard of that ... just read through the receiver manual and got some info on it. From what I read there, it seems as though we probably WANT that on the "C" receiver, as otherwise someone might tune around on the decoder and end up on the wrong stream and we'd miss the promo feed. Also, the feed might move around, and if we don't know where it is, we'd be hosed. Perhaps that's why they left it this way? Works for me.
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post #188 of 281 Old 08-15-2009, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

PID Alias? I've not heard of that ... just read through the receiver manual and got some info on it. From what I read there, it seems as though we probably WANT that on the "C" receiver, as otherwise someone might tune around on the decoder and end up on the wrong stream and we'd miss the promo feed. Also, the feed might move around, and if we don't know where it is, we'd be hosed. Perhaps that's why they left it this way? Works for me.

None of our receivers are in PID Alias. They told us that was not the normal operating mode. HHHMM. Right hand/left hand. Typical.

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post #189 of 281 Old 08-15-2009, 08:31 AM
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If the HDMI network preview output of the splicer is native 720/60P, couldn't the stations convert that to HD SDI instead of using the IRD SD analog output? There still may be the issue of local encoder latency on local/net switches.
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post #190 of 281 Old 08-15-2009, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

If the HDMI network preview output of the splicer is native 720/60P, couldn't the stations convert that to HD SDI instead of using the IRD SD analog output? There still may be the issue of local encoder latency on local/net switches.

There is no HDMI output on the receivers. Only ASI and Composite Video.

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post #191 of 281 Old 08-15-2009, 08:57 AM
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I was referring to the HDMI outputs from the network preview Cisco media players. I wonder if any decoder with a network input would work such as a RX1290 with the network option.
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post #192 of 281 Old 08-16-2009, 11:40 AM
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OK, here is the TSReader dump of G3C and G16.

The receivers are tuned by the VCT/VCN values and TSR doesn't appear to be able to list that info. We know that VCT=900, but do not know what all of the VCNs map to.

It looks like VCN 974 = G3C/18 HD4 (Pacific)
and VCN 983 = G16/19 HD2 (promo backup feed)

I've sent an e-mail to Rod. Don't know if he'll answer. It is hit-n-miss when it comes to getting replies from Rod.

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post #193 of 281 Old 08-16-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

OK, here is the TSReader dump of G3C and G16.

The receivers are tuned by the VCT/VCN values and TSR doesn't appear to be able to list that info. We know that VCT=900, but do not know what all of the VCNs map to.

It looks like VCN 974 = G3C/18 HD4 (Pacific)
and VCN 983 = G16/19 HD2 (promo backup feed)

I've sent an e-mail to Rod. Don't know if he'll answer. It is hit-n-miss when it comes to getting replies from Rod.

You need to check during network programing at night. Bars and tone are normal during non network hours. If you see NGC or FNC on any of the streams, it is just in house testing to a particular site. With receivers still being installed, they like to put up FNC for testing during weekday daytime hours. But then they usually security encode at night and DEFINITELY security encode during high rated shows such as Dance, Idol, 24, etc and ALL sports.

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post #194 of 281 Old 08-16-2009, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

You need to check during network programing at night. Bars and tone are normal during non network hours. If you see NGC or FNC on any of the streams, it is just in house testing to a particular site.

They used to do what you mention. They've even had Fox News HD up on HD1 on G16 one day. Being at work, I do not get a chance to check during off net hours. The promos feeds are there, as well as the backup feeds. All FTA. [edit: D'Oh! FNC is Fox News]

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With receivers still being installed, they like to put up FNC for testing during weekday daytime hours. But then they usually security encode at night and DEFINITELY security encode during high rated shows such as Dance, Idol, 24, etc and ALL sports.

HD4 on G16 used to be encrypted. Today, as can be seen, it isn't, and it usually is whenever I've looked.

Other than HD4 on G16 being encrypted, no other stream as been, even during primetime. Not that I've seen, or anyone else that I correspond with.

As I type this, on G16, HD1 is E/C and HD2 is M. HD3 is bars/tone and HD4 is black. On G3C, all are bars/tone.

Encryption hasn't been running on the old DVB-S/8PSK streams since they tried it and found out it broke CC. There were very few who could get those feeds anyway. Of one who can, he said that encryption hasn't been on all season. His reception is spotty. When he was able to look, no encryption because it was broken.

Encryption does work with the new configuration and I expect it to be on full time any day now.

Some will complain that I'm talking about the Fox transponders on an open channel. Hell, it isn't going to cause them to turn on encryption, that is in the plans anyway. Where they are located and what they are doing certainly isn't a trade secret, though some would think it was.

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post #195 of 281 Old 08-16-2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Some will complain that I'm talking about the Fox transponders on an open channel.

I say screw them. I find all of this stuff fascinating, and I don't have the inside contacts to find any of it out on my own. So I rely on what's posted here to feed my curiosity.
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post #196 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 12:05 AM
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If they haven't figured out that the unencrypted feeds to Canada are being used for piracy by now, will they ever? It's only been happening since the analog days, and the move to digital didn't do much to slow it down.

What's there to gain by encrypting the feeds to affiliates? The small handful of people with big enough dishes will no longer be able to watch all of Fox's NFL games without paying for Sunday Ticket?
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post #197 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 06:32 AM
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I say screw them. I find all of this stuff fascinating, and I don't have the inside contacts to find any of it out on my own. So I rely on what's posted here to feed my curiosity.

Well, it ISN'T really as interesting as it sounds, but I am glad someone thinks it does.

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post #198 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 07:36 AM
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If they haven't figured out that the unencrypted feeds to Canada are being used for piracy by now, will they ever? It's only been happening since the analog days, and the move to digital didn't do much to slow it down.

There aren't as many unencrypted feeds as you might think. The move to digital was for other reasons. When feeds used to be a day, or two, before they aired OTA, there was an advantage to the using the feeds. With the window changed to only a few hours, it isn't a big deal anymore. That said, all of those annoying snipes covering the screen will drive people to hunt for any Canadian feed, or even use the Canadian OTA instead of the crappy US OTA.

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What's there to gain by encrypting the feeds to affiliates? The small handful of people with big enough dishes will no longer be able to watch all of Fox's NFL games without paying for Sunday Ticket?

I don't even watch football But, you are right, why bother. Especially for Fox. What you get via Fox feed is no better than what you get OTA, since the video/audio is the same (other than the local bug insertion).

The idea is to force you to watch your local affiliate. But there aren't enough BUDheads left to even care about. And we certainly aren't Nielson households. Kinda hard to hook up those boxes to our equipment

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post #199 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 07:37 AM
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Well, it ISN'T really as interesting as it sounds, but I am glad someone thinks it does.

That is because you are on the inside looking out.

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post #200 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

If they haven't figured out that the unencrypted feeds to Canada are being used for piracy by now, will they ever? It's only been happening since the analog days, and the move to digital didn't do much to slow it down.

What's there to gain by encrypting the feeds to affiliates? The small handful of people with big enough dishes will no longer be able to watch all of Fox's NFL games without paying for Sunday Ticket?

Piraters sometimes do use the US feeds.
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post #201 of 281 Old 08-17-2009, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

There aren't as many unencrypted feeds as you might think. The move to digital was for other reasons. When feeds used to be a day, or two, before they aired OTA, there was an advantage to the using the feeds. With the window changed to only a few hours, it isn't a big deal anymore. That said, all of those annoying snipes covering the screen will drive people to hunt for any Canadian feed, or even use the Canadian OTA instead of the crappy US OTA.

Canadian OTA channels are just as bad as the US channels. The full-color, opaque CTV bug animation at the start of each show segment is particularly disgusting, especially when they pull an NBC and put the Olympic rings below it.
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Piraters sometimes do use the US feeds.

Sure, but there's little point in restricting them since 200 million people still have access to the live broadcast from their local stations.
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post #202 of 281 Old 08-18-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Canadian OTA channels are just as bad as the US channels. The full-color, opaque CTV bug animation at the start of each show segment is particularly disgusting, especially when they pull an NBC and put the Olympic rings below it.

Is CTV getting just as bad with snipes?

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post #203 of 281 Old 08-18-2009, 03:10 PM
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CTV has been just as bad as the American networks for a long time.



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post #204 of 281 Old 08-18-2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Sure, but there's little point in restricting them since 200 million people still have access to the live broadcast from their local stations.

And that's the way the local stations like it. They don't want you to bypass their local commercials by getting the satellite feed.
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post #205 of 281 Old 08-18-2009, 11:43 PM
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And that's the way the local stations like it. They don't want you to bypass their local commercials by getting the satellite feed.

The number of people with the equipment and knowledge to get the feeds is incredibly low. I really don't think they use encryption because they want those people to watch the local commercials.
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post #206 of 281 Old 08-19-2009, 06:57 AM
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The number of people with the equipment and knowledge to get the feeds is incredibly low. I really don't think they use encryption because they want those people to watch the local commercials.

Don't bet the farm on it and there are no local commercials on the national feed. The local commercials are inserted at the station, after the sat feed.

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post #207 of 281 Old 08-19-2009, 07:15 AM
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CTV has been just as bad as the American networks for a long time.

Oh well. There goes that source.

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post #208 of 281 Old 08-19-2009, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Don't bet the farm on it and there are no local commercials on the national feed.

IMHO, there are so few of us BUDheads left, that we wouldn't make a dent in the ratings. As I mentioned previously, I seriously doubt that any BUDhead is in a major metered market and a metered Nielson family. It might be a little tougher to connect to our equipment Eevn if someone was, it would barely make a change in the ratings.

As for watching local commercials... I only see them during the local news. Everything I watch is captured on the computer and then edited before I watch it. No matter the source. Even if I was forced to watch all of the local OTAs, I still wouldn't see the local stuff.

I don't even watch CBS, no matter the source. Their damn snipes totally pissed me off.

So, encryption would not have the desired affect with me, even if I didn't have my BUDs.

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post #209 of 281 Old 08-19-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Don't bet the farm on it and there are no local commercials on the national feed. The local commercials are inserted at the station, after the sat feed.

I know that local commercials are inserted locally, that wasn't my point.
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post #210 of 281 Old 08-19-2009, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

IMHO, there are so few of us BUDheads left, that we wouldn't make a dent in the ratings. As I mentioned previously, I seriously doubt that any BUDhead is in a major metered market and a metered Nielson family.

Not a Nielsen family but I live in metered market #18 and use my 10' C/Ku daily...
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