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post #1081 of 1464 Old 08-15-2010, 01:59 PM
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These Sea Shepherd folks are genuine volunteers who are knowingly risking their lives for a basicly political/moral cause they believe in. Speaking as a former member of the USCG, with very few exceptions I find the Sea Shepard folks ill-qualified to be where they are and doing what they are doing. Those that have made more than one season's voyage know what the risks are - yet they returned. I call that courage.

The Japanese are killing endangered whales to put rare and costly meat on people's tables. They may have found a loophole in the law, but I call that immoral and possibly even criminal. If they truely are doing research, for example, then their "Scientists" will have published research results in the peer-reviewed science journals, it should be simple to prove.

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post #1082 of 1464 Old 08-15-2010, 05:50 PM
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The Japanese are killing endangered whales to put rare and costly meat on people's tables. They may have found a loophole in the law, but I call that immoral and possibly even criminal. If they truely are doing research, for example, then their "Scientists" will have published research results in the peer-reviewed science journals, it should be simple to prove.

There's no loophole in the "law". It was an agreement signed with the "loophole" intentionally added in order to get the support of the whaling nations. The conservationists get quotas that insure that endangered whales do not get hunted into extinction, and the whaling nations get to continue to harvest whale meat.

Remove the "loophole" and there will no longer be an agreement. Then whaling will continue without any controls whatsoever.
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post #1083 of 1464 Old 08-15-2010, 06:42 PM
 
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There's no loophole in the "law". It was an agreement signed with the "loophole" intentionally added in order to get the support of the whaling nations. The conservationists get quotas that insure that endangered whales do not get hunted into extinction, and the whaling nations get to continue to harvest whale meat.

Remove the "loophole" and there will no longer be an agreement. Then whaling will continue without any controls whatsoever.

Of course it is a loophole, they are whaling under the guise of scientific research. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Take away the research part and they are breaking the law, hence the reason why the SSer's are there in the first place because they believe they ( the Japanese ) are doing just that.
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post #1084 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 04:36 AM
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Of course it is a loophole, they are whaling under the guise of scientific research. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Take away the research part and they are breaking the law, hence the reason why the SSer's are there in the first place because they believe they ( the Japanese ) are doing just that.

Do you want "simple" or do you want the facts? Why do you think the parties involved put in the scientific research provision or the "aboriginal subsistence whaling" clause - under which the USA and other countries is currently hunting whales? Norway lodged an objection to the moratorium, so they are not restricted at all in their whaling activities - neither is Iceland who only agreed to join the IWC if the moratorium would not apply to them, to which the IWC agreed.

Bottom line is this (from Wikipedia):
IWC is a voluntary international organization and is not backed up by treaty. Therefore, the IWC, in essence, is a voluntary organization which has substantial practical limitations on its authority. First, any member countries are free to simply leave the organization and declare themselves not bound by it if they so wish. Second, any member state may opt out of any specific IWC regulation by lodging a formal objection to it within 90 days of the regulation coming into force (such provisions are common in international agreements, on the logic that it is preferable to have parties remain within the agreements than opt out altogether). Third, the IWC has no ability to enforce any of its decisions through penalty imposition.

The Sea Shepherds aren't enforcing any "law". They are the equivalent of some vigilante who decides to enter someone else's housing development and violently enforce their own development's homeowners association bylaws.

... Although, even HOAs have more authority and enforcement available than does the IWC since they are legally binding agreements that you can't just opt out of.

So your statement that if you "Take away the research part and they are breaking the law" is flat out wrong because there is no "law" to break.
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post #1085 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 04:41 AM
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Maybe their next vessel should be a rebuilt U-boat.
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post #1086 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 08:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Do you want "simple" or do you want the facts? Why do you think the parties involved put in the scientific research provision or the "aboriginal subsistence whaling" clause - under which the USA and other countries is currently hunting whales? Norway lodged an objection to the moratorium, so they are not restricted at all in their whaling activities - neither is Iceland who only agreed to join the IWC if the moratorium would not apply to them, to which the IWC agreed.

Bottom line is this (from Wikipedia):
IWC is a voluntary international organization and is not backed up by treaty. Therefore, the IWC, in essence, is a voluntary organization which has substantial practical limitations on its authority. First, any member countries are free to simply leave the organization and declare themselves not bound by it if they so wish. Second, any member state may opt out of any specific IWC regulation by lodging a formal objection to it within 90 days of the regulation coming into force (such provisions are common in international agreements, on the logic that it is preferable to have parties remain within the agreements than opt out altogether). Third, the IWC has no ability to enforce any of its decisions through penalty imposition.

The Sea Shepherds aren't enforcing any "law". They are the equivalent of some vigilante who decides to enter someone else's housing development and violently enforce their own development's homeowners association bylaws.

... Although, even HOAs have more authority and enforcement available than does the IWC since they are legally binding agreements that you can't just opt out of.

So your statement that if you "Take away the research part and they are breaking the law" is flat out wrong because there is no "law" to break.

So the whole thing is useless. Then why sign a treaty or agreement if your not going to abide by it anyway regardless if there is any authority involved or the terms are not enforceable. Maybe it's just to cast a positive image on themselves and for show? Seems like deception to me and I think most people believe that is exactly what the Japanese are doing. Makes the reason the SS'ers are out there even more justifiable so everyone can see their word means nothing. Maybe you don't have a problem with those that operate like that but I do, hence the reason I have no sympathy for the Japanese.
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post #1087 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 08:40 AM
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So the whole thing is useless. Then why sign a treaty or agreement if your not going to abide by it anyway regardless if there is any authority involved or the terms are not enforceable. Maybe it's just to cast a positive image on themselves and for show? Seems like deception to me and I think most people believe that is exactly what the Japanese are doing. Makes the reason the SS'ers are out there even more justifiable so everyone can see their word means nothing. Maybe you don't have a problem with those that operate like that but I do, hence the reason I have no sympathy for the Japanese.

The Japanese have followed the treaty. That is the point. The IWC allows commericial fishing under the guise of "research." In effect this means they commercially whale while conducting some minor scientific research, which they then publish. The Japanese have been 100% following the IWC rules. It is the SS that are completely outside law.
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post #1088 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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The Japanese have followed the treaty. That is the point. The IWC allows commericial fishing under the guise of "research." In effect this means they commercially whale while conducting some minor scientific research, which they then publish. The Japanese have been 100% following the IWC rules. It is the SS that are completely outside law.

And who gives them the jurisdiction to whale in the waters of the southern Antarctica? Answer No One!
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post #1089 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:02 AM
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And who gives them the jurisdiction to whale in the waters of the southern Antarctica? Answer No One!

They don't need jurisdiction. The southern ocean is in international waters.
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post #1090 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:33 AM
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Like it or not, whaling within limits is legal. Humans have been eating other mammals for quite a while. Occasionally, other mammals turn the tables on the humans.

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post #1091 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:51 AM
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There is no treaty. You can keep calling it that to justify your position, but it doesn't change the fact that the IWC is a voluntary organization with voluntary membership - with absolutely no authority to enforce anything that comes out of the organization.

You slam the Japanese for participating - and voluntarily abiding by the IWC imposed quota system that regulates the various species. What about Norway and Iceland? Norway was a member of the IWC that objected to the moratorium and research quotas, so they are not obligated to abide by them at all. Iceland said they'd join the IWC if they wouldn't apply to them either and the IWC let them join.

The IWC was established to:
provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the commercial whaling and the orderly development of the whaling industry

The US has its own loophole that we exploit.

If they close all the loopholes, they'll just start a new whaling society to monitor whale populations and determine what hunting levels are sustainable - and all the countries involved with whaling will join the new group.

The IWC is like the Rotary Club or any other club. They are interested in gathering dues paying members, but have no authority to impose their own laws on others (or to claim ownership of, or the right to regulate, vast sections of international waters)

The Sea Shepherds are claiming to enforce a law that doesn't exist.
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post #1092 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:51 AM
 
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They don't need jurisdiction. The southern ocean is in international waters.

So if you killed someone in international waters, that is alright because no one has jurisdiction.
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post #1093 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

There is no treaty. You can keep calling it that to justify your position, but it doesn't change the fact that the IWC is a voluntary organization with voluntary membership - with absolutely no authority to enforce anything that comes out of the organization.

You slam the Japanese for participating - and voluntarily abiding by the IWC imposed quota system that regulates the various species. What about Norway and Iceland? Norway was a member of the IWC that objected to the moratorium and research quotas, so they are not obligated to abide by them at all. Iceland said they'd join the IWC if they wouldn't apply to them either and the IWC let them join.

The IWC was established to:
provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the commercial whaling and the orderly development of the whaling industry

The US has its own loophole that we exploit.

If they close all the loopholes, they'll just start a new whaling society to monitor whale populations and determine what hunting levels are sustainable - and all the countries involved with whaling will join the new group.

The IWC is like the Rotary Club or any other club. They are interested in gathering dues paying members, but have no authority to impose their own laws on others (or to claim ownership of, or the right to regulate, vast sections of international waters)

The Sea Shepherds are claiming to enforce a law that doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure some of the whales species they hunt are on the extinction list now. I guess when they are all gone, this whole thing will be moot anyway. That is why I'm going on another whale watching excursion next week so to witness these great creatures while we still can.
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post #1094 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 10:58 AM
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So if you killed someone in international waters, that is alright because no one has jurisdiction.

The country in which the vessel is flagged has jurisdiction to prosecute - or the home country of the victim.

Piracy violates International Maritime Law (along with smuggling, etc.) and can be prosecuted by any nation.

But International Maritime Law has more teeth that the wishes of a whaling club.
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post #1095 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:00 AM
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I'm pretty sure some of the whales species they hunt are on the extinction list now. I guess when they are all gone, this whole thing will be moot anyway. That is why I'm going on another whale watching excursion next week so to witness these great creatures while we still can.

I guess you being "pretty sure" trumps the numbers that the IWC itself releases each year?
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post #1096 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:01 AM
 
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The country in which the vessel is flagged has jurisdiction to prosecute - or the home country of the victim.

Piracy violates International Maritime Law (along with smuggling, etc.) and can be prosecuted by any nation.

But International Maritime Law has more teeth that the wishes of a whaling club.

Too bad the whales don't have such rights, oh well.
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I guess you being "pretty sure" trumps the numbers that the IWC itself releases each year?

I'm sure they are real accurate as well. Do they send out census forms for the whales to answer?
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post #1098 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:03 AM
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So if you killed someone in international waters, that is alright because no one has jurisdiction.

Jurisdiction in that case, would fall under the flag of the vessel where the murder occurred.
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post #1099 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:04 AM
 
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Jurisdiction in that case, would fall under the flag of the vessel where the murder occurred.

Kind of late to the party, are we?
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post #1100 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:06 AM
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I'm pretty sure some of the whales species they hunt are on the extinction list now. I guess when they are all gone, this whole thing will be moot anyway.

And it will mean that the IWC is all "talk" as people are trying to make clear. They are powerless. They don't create laws. Well, their organization may call them that but their "laws" mean nothing ... kinda like a nearby HOA and it's laws don't mean anything to me.
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Too bad the whales don't have such rights, oh well.

Now you get it.
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post #1101 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:06 AM
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Kind of late to the party, are we?

Too many quick repliers.
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post #1102 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:07 AM
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So the whole thing is useless. Then why sign a treaty or agreement if your not going to abide by it anyway regardless if there is any authority involved or the terms are not enforceable. Maybe it's just to cast a positive image on themselves and for show? Seems like deception to me and I think most people believe that is exactly what the Japanese are doing. Makes the reason the SS'ers are out there even more justifiable so everyone can see their word means nothing. Maybe you don't have a problem with those that operate like that but I do, hence the reason I have no sympathy for the Japanese.

This is extremely hypocritical. If anyone is doing this for "show", it is the Sea Shepherds. The Japanese at least abide by the IWC quotas established. If the Sea Shepherds are really concerned about saving whales, they'd head to Norway and stop them from whaling outside of the IWC guidelines.

But the SSers want to make the bogus "breaking the law" assertion against the Japanese to try and justify their actions instead of just trying to stop whaling.
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post #1103 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:07 AM
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Too bad the whales don't have such rights, oh well.

Just like every other animal out there.
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post #1104 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:09 AM
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I'm sure they are real accurate as well. Do they send out census forms for the whales to answer?

No, they rely on voluntary scientific research vessels to accumulate population and distribution data.

You can thank the Japanese for that.
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Too bad the whales don't have such rights, oh well.

I read an interesting post-singularity sci-fi story, where one of the features was that humans had augmented their intelligence with computer AIs... and part of the duty of the AIs was to manage all the interactions to make sure no one's rights were violated... rights were tiered all the way down to certain types of grasses that you weren't allowed to walk on.
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post #1106 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:10 AM
 
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Anyway, will be going out of Gloucester harbor and will post pics when I get back for those that are interested.
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post #1107 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

This is extremely hypocritical. If anyone is doing this for "show", it is the Sea Shepherds. The Japanese at least abide by the IWC quotas established. If the Sea Shepherds are really concerned about saving whales, they'd head to Norway and stop them from whaling outside of the IWC guidelines.

But the SSers want to make the bogus "breaking the law" assertion against the Japanese to try and justify their actions instead of just trying to stop whaling.

The Japanese quota is self imposed... the IWC doesn't even have authority to have a say in it.

Also, I think the SS focus on Japan while ignoring Norway, gives substance to the Japanese argument that there is racial/cultural bigotry at work here.
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post #1108 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:13 AM
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Anyway, will be going out of Gloucester harbor and will post pics when I get back for those that are interested.

I'm interested. I've been on a couple whale watching trips. I really enjoyed seeing the whales, but the experience was marred by crippling sea sickness.
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post #1109 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:13 AM
 
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I read an interesting post-singularity sci-fi story, where one of the features was that humans had augmented their intelligence with computer AIs... and part of the duty of the AIs was to manage all the interactions to make sure no one's rights were violated... rights were tiered all the way down to certain types of grasses that you weren't allowed to walk on.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with sci-fi. Maybe you need to see a whale live in person to know they really exist and are not make believe.
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post #1110 of 1464 Old 08-17-2010, 11:14 AM
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Anyway, will be going out of Gloucester harbor and will post pics when I get back for those that are interested.

I'd like to see them.

By the way, I heard the average whale watching excursion causes about 3 dozen whale deaths from cavitation induced miscarriages.
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