ABC O&O's destroy HD quality with launch of Live Well HD. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 354 Old 05-14-2009, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coyoteaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: DFW
Posts: 4,182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To be honest, I can barely see a difference between the two, even when A/Bing them. The net feed shows a few extra grains of sand, and a bit more detail on the water. Neither one looks better than it would on the DVD. Blurry crap in, blurry crap out.
coyoteaz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 354 Old 05-14-2009, 09:25 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

To be honest, I can barely see a difference between the two, even when A/Bing them. The net feed shows a few extra grains of sand, and a bit more detail on the water. Neither one looks better than it would on the DVD. Blurry crap in, blurry crap out.

Agreed, it is a little hard to tell if you don't enlarge sections of the images. Download the original BMP files and enlarge sections in Photoshop. You won't have any trouble seeing the difference.

If you watch this on your large screen projection system, the local affiliate video will look softer than the network feed. The 1080p release will blow then both away.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #273 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 10:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Berk32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UWS NYC
Posts: 4,679
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 20
TWC NYC just posted this announcement today:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nynj/...elchanges.html
Quote:


We may cease carriage of a WABC multicast service, currently provided on ch. 687, no earlier than June 30, 2009.

(that would be WABC ch 7.2 aka Live Well HD)

I wonder if something is going on......
Berk32 is online now  
post #274 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 11:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
StudioTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 862
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
^ I wonder if WABC is asking for more money to carry the channel.
StudioTech is offline  
post #275 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 11:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mx6bfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Delray Beach, FL
Posts: 6,891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Even though my local doesn't carry it, and I hope they don't, I hope something is going on, in a good way for HD.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!


My Samsung 55" D8000 LED-3D tv settings.
mx6bfast is offline  
post #276 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 12:28 PM
Senior Member
 
CNiles3806's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 258
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If there was ever a P.O.S. channel that I wished tank it is that Live Worthless Faux HD, bit stealer channel. I hope this channel collapses into a hot steaming pile of fresh horse manure.

And if Disney is asking for more money to carry that channel they would be nuttier than I thought they were in adding that channel in the first place. You mean cable companies actually have to pay to carry this trash, wow.

CV needs to add H2 HD
CNiles3806 is offline  
post #277 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 02:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dm145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 4,815
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mx6bfast View Post

Even though my local doesn't carry it, and I hope they don't, I hope something is going on, in a good way for HD.

As long as abc it broadcasting 7.2 , it will impact HD on 7.1
regardless if your cable system chooses to carry it
dm145 is offline  
post #278 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 02:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Berk32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UWS NYC
Posts: 4,679
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by dm145 View Post

As long as abc it broadcasting 7.2 , it will impact HD on 7.1
regardless if your cable system chooses to carry it

yes... i know...

my point was that there might be something going on that we haven't heard about involving the subchannel's complete removal
Berk32 is online now  
post #279 of 354 Old 05-15-2009, 04:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
StudioTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 862
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dm145 View Post

As long as abc it broadcasting 7.2 , it will impact HD on 7.1
regardless if your cable system chooses to carry it

The one good thing about all of this since the .2 conversion three weeks ago is that the complaints seemed to have reached the right people at WABC and bits have been shifted back to the main channel where it now looks very close to what it used to look like before the conversion. Hopefully the other 9 O&Os get the message soon.
StudioTech is offline  
post #280 of 354 Old 05-17-2009, 12:52 PM
Member
 
brian1269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kingsport, TN
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow, I'm watching the Rockets-Lakers right now on ABC HD and this is horrible. I thought it might be the local station here screwing up again until I did a search and found this thread. I don't remember ABC having such a terrible image before for live sporting events. Is this something new? My TiVo see the picture as 480i and that's exactly what it looks like. it is 16x9 (unless they are just stretching it out) but the quality is pathetic. What the hell is going on here?
On ESPN tNBA games look great. It's the same production people, so why does this look so bad on ABC?

WKPTDT
Charter
Tri-Cities, TN
brian1269 is offline  
post #281 of 354 Old 05-17-2009, 12:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Young C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,854
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 68
I finally see this "Live Well HD" on my local sub channel. When this thread was made, I never saw "Live Well HD" on my local ABC sub channel.
Young C is offline  
post #282 of 354 Old 05-17-2009, 07:02 PM
Senior Member
 
speedlaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New York, about 40 miles north of "New York"
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I wondered what happened to ABC here in NY (OTA). I don't normally program in subchannels, but tuned to 7.2 and there was a guy (I kid you NOT) selling colon cleanser.

For this my .1 channel looks like upscaled SD ?????

horrible...just horrible......

In Vienna we sit, in late night cafe. Straight Connection, on T.E.E.
speedlaw is offline  
post #283 of 354 Old 05-17-2009, 11:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US | Age: 25
Posts: 14,307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Send a message via AIM to Trip in VA Send a message via Yahoo to Trip in VA
So, tropo is bringing in WTVD-DT tonight even with the antenna 90 degrees off from where it needs to be, so I'm checking out Live Well HD for the first time.

Holy hell is that bad PQ. The bitrate seems to vary between 4.4 Mbps and maybe 6 Mbps, and any motion at all makes it dissolve into a mess of pixels. And I thought my local PBS looks bad; they're beautiful by comparison!

Geez. I'd check out 11-1 but they're doing upconverted SD right now, so it's not really a good judge.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is online now  
post #284 of 354 Old 05-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Senior Member
 
aindik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
WPVI in Philly doesn't seem to be running Live Well 24/7. Are they doing that in other markets? Last night, WPVI2 (on cable, which I assume is the same as 6-2 OTA) was running a syndicated rerun of Lost.

Is there any reason they can't just switch the resolution from 720p to 480i when the content they're running isn't in HD? My Tivo and my TV seem perfectly capable of dealing with a channel that changes its resolution from program to program.

Recently a bunch of HD channels have been running an ad locally inserted by Comcast. When the ad runs, the resolution switches to 480i. When it's over, back to 720p or 1080i. While I'm pretty sure this is a mistake and it doesn't make sense to do it for a single ad, it might make sense for ABC or the affiliates to do this on purpose for their -2 channel when it comes to the actual programming.
aindik is offline  
post #285 of 354 Old 05-18-2009, 12:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JWhip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wayne, PA
Posts: 4,017
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 132
WPVI is still running Live Well HD at least at 3P.m. I just checked it on FiOS as I can't get WPVI OTA. I watched a little of the Lakers-Rockets reply on ESPN last night and the PQ was far superior to that on WPVI. Anyone who had any doubts about the effect of the Living Well HD subchannel just needs to see the differences between these two broadcasts to see the havoc it has wrought. The WPVI picture was very soft and nothing more than DVD 480p quality.
JWhip is online now  
post #286 of 354 Old 05-19-2009, 01:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aindik View Post

WPVI in Philly doesn't seem to be running Live Well 24/7. Are they doing that in other markets? Last night, WPVI2 (on cable, which I assume is the same as 6-2 OTA) was running a syndicated rerun of Lost.

Is there any reason they can't just switch the resolution from 720p to 480i when the content they're running isn't in HD? My Tivo and my TV seem perfectly capable of dealing with a channel that changes its resolution from program to program.

Recently a bunch of HD channels have been running an ad locally inserted by Comcast. When the ad runs, the resolution switches to 480i. When it's over, back to 720p or 1080i. While I'm pretty sure this is a mistake and it doesn't make sense to do it for a single ad, it might make sense for ABC or the affiliates to do this on purpose for their -2 channel when it comes to the actual programming.

ISTR that when this was tested with early set top boxes, a significant number crashed, froze etc.

Also - if you run with native resolution output (i.e. no rescaling in the box) then many TVs will re-sync to the new format, giving you a blank screen (and no audio) or burst of static - as they re-sync to the new input. Not a great experience for the viewer...

But then 2 720p streams and a 480i stream shoehorned into a single ATSC transmission in MPEG2 isn't a great viewer experience either.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #287 of 354 Old 06-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Senior Member
 
aindik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My TiVo reports that a recent hour of HD from WPVI (Pushing Daisies on Saturday night) was about 4000 MB. That's less than 9 Mbps. ESPN-HD is at 15.55 Mbps. Local news on KYW (CBS affiliate, 1080i) was at 12.2 Mbps.
aindik is offline  
post #288 of 354 Old 07-05-2009, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
posg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Excerpt from "Broadcasting & Cable" 7/6/09

Perhaps the best example of the current HD squeeze is Live Well HD, a new high-definition, lifestyle-focused subchannel launched by the 10 ABC owned-and-operated stations in late April. ABC O&Os like WABC New York had already been transmitting two 480i standard-def subchannels—generally a local news channel and an AccuWeather channel—alongside their primary 720p HD stream, with no major impact to HD picture quality. But when ABC stations replaced the news channel with Live Well HD and began transmitting it as a second 720p HD program stream at the same time they were broadcasting National Basketball Association playoff games, the primary HD picture suffered significantly.

Viewer complaints flooded into stations as well as enthusiast Websites such as the AV Science Forum, where HD experts accused ABC of destroying its HD picture quality and derided both HD streams as looking no better than widescreen SD.

Since then, ABC engineers have tweaked the compression parameters on their Harris NetVX encoders, devoting more bits to the primary HD channel and reducing the bits that Live Well HD gets. From watching WABC, these changes appear to have eliminated major problems on the primary ABC program stream. But Live Well HD is still subject to frequent compression artifacts. Moreover, many HD purists say ABC's HD primary service is now significantly “softer” than the HD fare from CBS, NBC and Fox.

According to Dave Converse, VP of engineering for the ABC station group, the way the NetVX encoders are now set across the group gives the primary ABC channel an average of 11 Mbps, peaking as high as 14, while Live Well HD averages around 6.5 Mbps. The Local AccuWeather Channel is delivered at an average bitrate of 1.5 Mbps; it is hard-coded at a constant bitrate at some stations and statistically multiplexed with the two HDs at others. Converse believes that setup delivers good picture quality for the primary feed and still gives enough bits to Live Well, whose “talking head”-type material isn't as demanding.
posg is offline  
post #289 of 354 Old 03-02-2010, 07:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
icemannyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
It's time to complain to WABC again.

As of Monday WABC-DT reverted back to being over compressed with very soft video.
It's like someone took the settings the made WABC-DT look good even with the 2 sub channels and switched to back to make WABC-DT bad.
Jimmy Kimmel Live was awful on Monday, the video was so bad the show looked SD 16:9.
icemannyr is offline  
post #290 of 354 Old 03-03-2010, 09:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
icemannyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Following up,
as a test I recorded The View on WABC-DT and the total file size was only 4.1GB.
I recorded an hour of local news on WNYW-DT (FOX5) which is also 720p and the file size is 5.79 GB.
Since Monday WABC-DT is basically broadcasting at a max of 10mpbs which is not good for HD video.
icemannyr is offline  
post #291 of 354 Old 03-03-2010, 11:39 PM
Member
 
cmc1002001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

Following up,
as a test I recorded The View on WABC-DT and the total file size was only 4.1GB.
I recorded an hour of local news on WNYW-DT (FOX5) which is also 720p and the file size is 5.79 GB.
Since Monday WABC-DT is basically broadcasting at a max of 10mpbs which is not good for HD video.

Do you have cable? Here in Philly, our provider (Comcast) recives the ABC feed (WPVI) directly through a fiber link so they can add Comcast advertising to the feed. In retrospect, you get a full 15Mbps MPEG-2 capture output compared to OTA using rabbit ears.
cmc1002001 is offline  
post #292 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 01:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coyoteaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: DFW
Posts: 4,182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Comcast gets the feed via fiber because even they can't get WPVI's low VHF broadcast cleanly . In the past, it was always the exact same overcompressed version that was available antenna. Did they recently start getting something different?
coyoteaz is offline  
post #293 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 06:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dougotte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,272
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 28
In the DC area, the local affiliate appears to have compressed their signal. I always thought Lost was a gorgeous show, but this season the PQ is very compromised. There's a loss of detail and smearing. The change seems to have happened between the end of last season (Spring 2009?) and this winter.

Sorry; but I don't think I watch any other ABC shows, or at least I don't pay much attention if I do. And, I don't have the technical expertise to measure the bitrate.

I'm assuming it's the local affiliate. I don't think the producers would have reduced the quality. Abrams is a stickler for using 35mm in his programs/movies. If ABC isn't doing it, it must be the affiliate.

Doug
dougotte is offline  
post #294 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
icemannyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The FiOS WABC-DT feed appears to be exactly the same as the OTA feed with the 2 sub channels included.

I wish FiOS could get the WABC-DT feed from before the two sub channels are added cause it's real bad now with SD 16:9 quality video.
Hopefully ABC will realize having Live Well HD as an HD sub channel was a mistake and they will down covert it to SD to give bandwidth to the main feed.
I just don't know how an engineer at WABC could watch the WABC-DT and think that the video looks good.
icemannyr is offline  
post #295 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 08:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TVOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,881
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

I wish FiOS could get the WABC-DT feed from before the two sub channels are added cause it's real bad now with SD 16:9 quality video.

Wouldn't make any difference if it came from the same ATSC encoder and they are using the typical encoder/mux stat muxing. The bit rate of the encoder is reduced before the subchannels are added. What's needed is a separate encoder running at a higher bitrate. I've long thought that the sat providers could supply a MPEG4 encoder at stations to source directly from the baseband video. Cable and FiOS could benefit too with re-encoding a MPEG4 feed on MPEG2 with a higher than ATSC bitrate. Obviously this would be of little benefit for improvement of PQ on FOX stations with the splicer.

For PQ Live Well should be called Kill Well.
TVOD is offline  
post #296 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 08:53 AM
Senior Member
 
andgarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Philly these days.
Posts: 267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tuned into Jeopardy last night on WABC. It looked absolutely awful.
andgarden is offline  
post #297 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
StudioTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 862
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmc1002001 View Post

Do you have cable? Here in Philly, our provider (Comcast) recives the ABC feed (WPVI) directly through a fiber link so they can add Comcast advertising to the feed. In retrospect, you get a full 15Mbps MPEG-2 capture output compared to OTA using rabbit ears.

Comcast cannot add advertising to an OTA station. FCC prohibits any provider from altering a broadcast signal in any way.
StudioTech is offline  
post #298 of 354 Old 03-04-2010, 10:51 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
homcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by StudioTech View Post

Comcast cannot add advertising to an OTA station. FCC prohibits any provider from altering a broadcast signal in any way.

Comcast is working with many local stations to provide different advertising on the fiber feed then from what is on the OTA feed.
homcom is offline  
post #299 of 354 Old 03-05-2010, 05:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
iontyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I decided to take a closer look at our ABC affiliate (WMAR-2) in Baltimore last night. During Private Practice the HD picture was pathetic. I would say like a bad DVD! Closeup facial shots were fuzzy and without detail. As far as I know we are not a O&O affiliate, so is everyone 'benefiting' from the multicast shared bandwidth problem? The only other ABC shows I watch are Lost and Flash Forward, so I will be looking more closely at those too...
iontyre is offline  
post #300 of 354 Old 03-05-2010, 06:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
sptrout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 603
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just wanted to add that you folks on the east coast are not alone. In Houston, our local ABC affiliate is O&O also and their picture is terrible. (Subject of many blistering comments over on the OTA Board.) Their picture is not much better than analog, and local studio produced material (news anyway) is really bad (looks like they decided to cut their electric bill by reducing the lighting on the set). Because of their poor PQ, we have stopped watching their local news and only watch a few of ABC's shows. It is a shame that a show like "Lost" that is shot on location in Hawaii, is destroyed every week.

Watching DirecTV (in our case) does not help either since it is obvious that they are just up-linking an OTA received signal back to their main distribution point.
sptrout is offline  
Reply HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off