ABC O&O's destroy HD quality with launch of Live Well HD. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by posg View Post

Just for grins I've watched a few minutes of Live Well HD, and here's the verdict. Aside from the weak content, the HD is NOT going to attract viewers. It is much worse than the digital simulcast SD channels on my cable system (TWC), much worse.

At least ABC didn't split the bandwidth 50/50, looks more like 70/30.

Yes, the quality is pretty bad, I don't even understand why they bothered.
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post #62 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Yes, the quality is pretty bad, I don't even understand why they bothered.

Maybe nobody will notice.
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post #63 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 06:31 PM
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Yeah it's bad. If you guys in ABC O&O markets wanna see how it's affecting ABC HD bandwith,take a look here

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...ch&network=ABC

TSReader results for Philadelphia:
64.3 06-1 WPVI-HD 720p 1280x720 16:9 0x0031 8.6Mbps DD5.1 0x0034 384kbps
64.4 06-2 WPVI-SD 720p 1280x720 16:9 0x0041 3.6Mbps DD2.0 0x0044 192kbps
64.5 06-3 WPVI-WX 480i 704x480 4:3 0x0051 2.4Mbps DD2.0 0x0054 192kbps


As you can see in my market under tech data. WPVI HD has been cut down from 12.4Mbps to 8.6Mbps. Now when watching Dancing with the Stars, you see the blocks of pixels on the screen, and even more so when there's a action sequence
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post #64 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAnnapolis View Post

Eh, I thought I remembered there being something special about NYC's NBC affiliate that involved the cable providers having a higher bitrate feed than the OTA viewers, but I guess I could be mistaken. It's been known to happen.

Yes, you are mistaken. There was a time where WNBC-DT had a better signal than all of the other NBC affiliated stations. This was because they are in the same building as the network and they could bypass the lousy network satellite distribution path.

All of the viewers of WNBC (OTA, sat, and cable) benefited from this arrangement. Note that this doesn't mean that sat and cable/OTA looked the same, they just looked better than their counterparts in other markets.
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post #65 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 08:21 PM
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FYI, if you do a Google search for Live Well HD, this thread comes up on the first page, albeit the last result on the page for now.
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post #66 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Berk32 View Post

We're all gonna enjoy Lost on Wednesday.......

So will I, at ~35Mbps (at least for now)

My local ABC affiliate has one HD and two SDs. I avoid it with a passion.

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post #67 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cmc1002001 View Post

Yeah it's bad. If you guys in ABC O&O markets wanna see how it's affecting ABC HD bandwith,take a look here

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...ch&network=ABC

Oh man. I've been trying to remember that web site address for the longest time. Thanks!
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post #68 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sansri88 View Post

Anyone in the NYC area who watches WABC please contact Bill Beam, VP of Engineering WABC-TV.

But it isn't his fault. Complaining to the messenger isn't going to do much good. He was FORCED to put that crap on his station.

The complaints need to go all the way to the top of Disney.

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post #69 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 10:03 PM
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WABC may have been forced to add LiveWell HD but they might give the sub channel less bandwidth if we complain.
The video on WABC-DT looks standard definition on all shows. Even the abc bug logo is soft.
The first cap is from the first Jimmy Kimmel Live HD show and the second cap is from tonight,
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post #70 of 354 Old 04-27-2009, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

WABC may have been forced to add LiveWell HD but they might give the sub channel less bandwidth if we complain.
The video on WABC-DT looks standard definition on all shows. Even the abc bug logo is soft.
The first cap is from the first Jimmy Kimmel Live HD show and the second cap is from tonight,

Like night and day. That's just SAD.
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post #71 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sansri88 View Post

Anyone in the NYC area who watches WABC please contact Bill Beam, VP of Engineering WABC-TV.

His email is in the public domain. bill.beam@abc.com

I sent an email alerting them that I'm now a former viewer and to give my piece of mind about what I think about their HD quality degradation on their primary network. Let's just say I made myself pretty clear that I think they screwed this one up big time and of course I threw in that the quality of HD on CBS, NBC and Fox is far better than their network.

CV needs to add H2 HD
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post #72 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

WABC may have been forced to add LiveWell HD but they might give the sub channel less bandwidth if we complain.
The video on WABC-DT looks standard definition on all shows. Even the abc bug logo is soft.
The first cap is from the first Jimmy Kimmel Live HD show and the second cap is from tonight,

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgarden View Post

Like night and day. That's just SAD.

The softer logo was one of the first things I noticed when this degrading of HD quality began thx to the addition of the Bit Stealer channel (Live whatever). Truly atrocious. When I first started seeing the blurred text of the logo I thought I was seeing things, sadly it was all too real.

If ABC truly cared about picture quality no way would this have been done, but we all know they don't otherwise the corporate pigs would have squashed this idea, instead they were probably sitting around talking about ad dollars and how to increase the revenue. Hey lets make this quasi HD channel that will draw people's attention stick some infomercials on it and they'll watch because its "HD" I would rather watch paint dry in High Def than look at any of their networks after this stunt. So long ABC. I know what quality HD picture is and this is not quality.

CV needs to add H2 HD
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post #73 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

WABC may have been forced to add LiveWell HD but they might give the sub channel less bandwidth if we complain.
The video on WABC-DT looks standard definition on all shows. Even the abc bug logo is soft.
The first cap is from the first Jimmy Kimmel Live HD show and the second cap is from tonight,

Good point Ice.

I believe the complaints ought to go to the rights holders. The NBA (and all rights holders) should be more proactive with regard to the quality of their product being delivered by ABC and others. If I were to advise them I'd recommend that the distributors contractually be required to deliver at given bit rate set by the rights holder.

The NBA playoffs looks like wide screen SD, I hope they (the NBA) are satisfied with that.
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post #74 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg Coppa View Post

Good point Ice.

I believe the complaints ought to go to the rights holders. The NBA (and all rights holders) should be more proactive with regard to the quality of their product being delivered by ABC and others. If I were to advise them I'd recommend that the distributors contractually be required to deliver at given bit rate set by the rights holder.

The NBA playoffs looks like wide screen SD, I hope they (the NBA) are satisfied with that.

Very fair point you raise there, wish their was some minimum bit rate threshold that must be met according to contract. The Detroit/Cleveland and Bulls/Celtics games were awful in quality compared to what was being shown on ESPN2 in the Cleveland - Detroit game when Bull/Celtics ran into OT.

CV needs to add H2 HD
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post #75 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 07:12 AM
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I got a response from bill. I'll post the email when I'm home since I'm on my phone right now. Basically it said they hadn't noticed as much of an impact but that they would look and see whatsup. He said the primary was variable bit rate and that I should see if there's a difference between cable and ota.
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post #76 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansri88 View Post

I got a response from bill. I'll post the email when I'm home since I'm on my phone right now. Basically it said they hadn't noticed as much of an impact but that they would look and see whatsup. He said the primary was variable bit rate and that I should see if there's a difference between cable and ota.

Yeah I got that response as well, I responded that on my Cablevision system I never had an issue with WABC-HD and its picture quality before, it began with the addition of Live Well HD, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about this if it wasn't a noticeable degradation of the picture quality on a major OTA network.

CV needs to add H2 HD
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post #77 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by hphase View Post

Yes, you are mistaken. There was a time where WNBC-DT had a better signal than all of the other NBC affiliated stations. This was because they are in the same building as the network and they could bypass the lousy network satellite distribution path.

All of the viewers of WNBC (OTA, sat, and cable) benefited from this arrangement. Note that this doesn't mean that sat and cable/OTA looked the same, they just looked better than their counterparts in other markets.

Duly noted; thanks for the corrections!
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post #78 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CNiles3806 View Post

Very fair point you raise there, wish their was some minimum bit rate threshold that must be met according to contract. The Detroit/Cleveland and Bulls/Celtics games were awful in quality compared to what was being shown on ESPN2 in the Cleveland - Detroit game when Bull/Celtics ran into OT.

Wow, and ESPN 1/2 here on Comcast looks far worse than CSN-Ph., the former lacks detail, and the colors are not accurate.

People on AVS said that broadcasters were going to ruin HD, until it looked just a bit better than SD, and unfortunately they were right with some channels.
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post #79 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 09:59 AM
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LOL ... just keep repeating the mantra: "Local network TV is not a monopoly ... it will never operate to the detriment of the public ... om ... this is not bad, it just means more choices ... om"
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post #80 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 10:02 AM
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Maybe flooding the NBA league office with e-mails would help. I'm sure they won't be thrilled that the NBA Playoffs and Finals will be shown in essentially glorified std def/hd lite.

It should be interesting to see how Lost looks on Wed.
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post #81 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 10:08 AM
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DVRed ABC's Desperate Housewives Sunday evening, although not a regular viewer and wasn't aware that WABC-DT locally had introduced this. Was amazed, briefly viewing the recording today before erasing it, how soft it looked. Wish they'd cut a deal with NYC's TWC, as NBC apparently did years ago, to pipe a 'full' bitrate signal to cable companies--avoiding the bit rate reduction from the HD subchannel. Other than Lost and some rare sports matches, don't watch much 720p (converted to 1080i by my 8300HD STB). -- John
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post #82 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 10:09 AM
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"... om ... I am not attached to this 58" 1080p plasma ... om ..."

Seriously ... from the jaws of victory, broadcast TV snatches defeat ... local TV appears to be doomed to follow the fate of AM radio ... perhaps it would be kinder to just pull the plug now.
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post #83 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 10:10 AM
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Thought of something else: Mark Cuban.

He is someone who should be made aware of this. As a big proponent of HD (HD Net) and new technologies and someone who is very proactive, perhaps, he can stimulate some action.
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post #84 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 10:18 AM
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When someone says that 720p and 1080i have the same bit rate they are talking about 1080i/24 and 720p/60. However since most source material except sports is 24 fps, most 720p transmissions are actually 720p/24. Actually 720p/24 is half the bitrate of 1080i/24.

This leads me to what I have believed for over 10 years. The stations that use 720p are really wanting to use a lower bitrate so they can multicast. This argument that 720p was better than 1080i was a smokescreen. They really just want to multicast. ABC has proven my worst fears to be true.

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post #85 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_R View Post

When someone says that 720p and 1080i have the same bit rate they are talking about 1080i/24 and 720p/60. However since most source material except sports is 24 fps, most 720p transmissions are actually 720p/24. Actually 720p/24 is half the bitrate of 1080i/24.

Not sure that's the case. If full 24p pulldown is used, to match the required 720/60p broadcast rate, it would include all the frames. Also not sure if MPEG repeat-frame encoding is regularly used for 720/60p broadcasts. -- John
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post #86 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_R View Post

When someone says that 720p and 1080i have the same bit rate they are talking about 1080i/24 and 720p/60. However since most source material except sports is 24 fps, most 720p transmissions are actually 720p/24. Actually 720p/24 is half the bitrate of 1080i/24.

This leads me to what I have believed for over 10 years. The stations that use 720p are really wanting to use a lower bitrate so they can multicast. This argument that 720p was better than 1080i was a smokescreen. They really just want to multicast. ABC has proven my worst fears to be true.

Rick R


Everything is sent 720p/60Hz. Even if it includes flags it is still 60Hz. Also most stuff is sourced at 60hz not 24. Only sitcoms and dramas originate at 24Hz.
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post #87 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Not sure that's the case. If full 24p pulldown is used, to match the required 720/60p broadcast rate, it would include all the frames. Also not sure if MPEG repeat-frame encoding is regularly used for 720/60p broadcasts.

I have never seen the repeat flags used in 720p broadcasts although it seems like Fox could insert them.

On my ABC affiliate, filmed material tends to get smeared over the "duplicate" frames so they aren't really duplicates. The first frame will often be missing some detail which is added by the "duplicate" frame that follows it. Some people actually like this effect because it can make 24p motion look smoother.

NOW: my post on AVS Forum.
NEXT: someone else's post on AVS Forum.
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post #88 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 12:59 PM
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Geez... I can only say I'm sooo glad PDX is not one of the O&O's. As others have posted, luckily LOST will be finished just over a year from now and hopefully our affiliate will not pick up this BS at all, but at least not until after that point. I do worry about the NBA but I'm sure that some nicely placed emails to the commissioner and others to persuade them to consider the PQ ramifications in their next network bidding process can help. One thing's for sure, if our affiliate does decide to pick this up, they will have zero chance of me sampling any new shows airing on their station...


ron
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post #89 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dylan24 View Post

It should be interesting to see how Lost looks on Wed.

I shudder to even imagine what that will look like, but I imagine nothing but soft pic quality and blurry jagged texts and fady colors.

Harry Potter was on over the weekend and it was not a pretty sight here on WABC in NY. The Disney folks have gone mad I tell you.

CV needs to add H2 HD
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post #90 of 354 Old 04-28-2009, 01:21 PM
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Full text of email from Bill Beam. It's nice that he replied, WCBS, WPIX, and WNBC never responded to inquiries I had with them. WNYW is amazing, Al the station engineer responds every time.

Quote:


Sriram,

Thank you for writing. We are closely monitoring the quality of our primary 7-1 channel with the change in 7-2 from 480i to 720p, and are not seeing the type of deterioration that you describe. As you mention below, the challenge is work within the fixed 19Mbps ATSC signal, but the allocations between the channels are dynamic, not fixed, with the demands of the 7-1 signal given priority over the other channels. We will continue to evaluate these signal quality issues so that the impact these additional services have on our primary HD signal will be minimal.

If possible, you should also look at our over-the-air DTV signal. While we have been working closely with the major cable and satellite providers, we have not been able to evaluate yet what impact, if any, this service change may be having on their systems and equipment.

Bill Beam

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