ABC O&O's destroy HD quality with launch of Live Well HD. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andgarden View Post

An update: WABC appears to have capped the Accuweather subchannel at about 1 MB/s and LiveWell at about 6 MB/s. 7-1 now looks MUCH improved.

Viewers of other O&Os should ask their stations to follow WABC's setup.

Really?

DVR'ed 20/20 friday night and watched yesterday, very soft!
Watching news now, looks upconverted compared to NBC.

How would raising 7-2 to 6Mbps and dropping 7-3 to 1Mbps help 7-1?
That leaves less than 11Mbps for 7-1

You guys are nuts!
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post #182 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 08:05 AM
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Well, you could ask WABC to bring 7-2 down even further--maybe cap it at 4 MB/s. But I'm frankly not sure that would even work.

If they want to have a second "HD" channel (even in name only), they have to make compromises. I wish they wouldn't have tried, but they did.
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post #183 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

(Please note: All ABC screencaps in this post are taken from sources that are OTA, or effectively OTA (FiOS).)

Here are some examples from a Cleveland/Detroit NBA game.

Reference (from ESPN2 high-bitrate feed): Original -- 1080p upconvert

IMHO, even the Original ESPN feed looks rather poor for HDTV.
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post #184 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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NBA playoffs look like crap. What's infuriating is the our local ABC affiliate has upconverted 480i content on the Live Well channel, a whole block of Jack Hanna's Animal Adveture. Gee ABC, did you not know that there is a 24/7 real HD animal channel.

I am willing to bet that the ratio of viewers between ABC and Live Well during the game is close to 5000:1. Could be wrong, but only if I'm too low.
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post #185 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 10:45 AM
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During the current game Heat/Hawks WABC-DT via Cablevision is averaging 11.50 Mb/s video. It can drop to as low as average in the low 10's during a 30 second 4:3 commercial break.
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post #186 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jpr281 View Post

During the current game Heat/Hawks WABC-DT via Cablevision is averaging 11.50 Mb/s video. It can drop to as low as average in the low 10's during a 30 second 4:3 commercial break.

I wonder if they dropped 7.2 back to 480i ????
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post #187 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 11:22 AM
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Stefanopolous & the Local WABC news this morning looked awful, blurry & soft.
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post #188 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posg View Post

I wonder if they dropped 7.2 back to 480i ????

Why are you wondering that?
If 7-1 is under 12Mbps the answer is NO!
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post #189 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 12:31 PM
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here's an email I found

TWDC.Corp.Communications@disney.com

let them have a piece of your mind. Will it do any good? probably not. But bitching about it here ain't gonna help either.
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post #190 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm145 View Post

Why are you wondering that?
If 7-1 is under 12Mbps the answer is NO!

Based on the below from a Fios website, specifically the comment that bandwidth had been reduced to 8.5 Mbps:

ABC owned and operated (O&O) stations are in the process of adding a second HD subchannel (Live Well HD) at the direct expense of picture quality on the main ABCHD feed.



Each station has 19.4Mbps total to split among their various subchannels for weather, traffic, news, etc. Until now, most subchannels were SD, so that left the HD feed with most of the bandwidth. The addition of this new HD feed by certain ABC affiliates comes at the direct expense of picture quality on the main ABC HD feed, whose bandwidth was reduced from ~12.5Mbps to ~8.5Mbps.





Affected (or soon to be affected) markets include:


New York City - WABC-TV 7
Los Angeles - KABC-TV 7
Chicago - WLS-TV 7
Philadelphia - WPVI-TV 6
San Francisco Bay Area - KGO-TV 7
Houston - KTRK-TV 13
Raleigh-Durham - WTVD-TV 11
Fresno - KFSN-TV 30
Flint-Saginaw - WJRT-TV 12
Toledo - WTVG-TV 13



If this change hasn't taken affect in your market yet, you should notice it within the next 1-2 weeks.



To reiterate, these changes are being made at the affiliate level, so there may not much that cable providers (or FiOS) can do about it.



If this new channel (Live Well HD) is successful, and viewer ratings on the main ABCHD feed are unaffected, then we can probably expect the same thing to happen in many/most markets later this year.
Kudos! Thanks!
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post #191 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posg View Post

Based on the below from a Fios website, specifically the comment that bandwidth had been reduced to 8.5 Mbps:

ABC owned and operated (O&O) stations are in the process of adding a second HD subchannel (Live Well HD) at the direct expense of picture quality on the main ABCHD feed.



Each station has 19.4Mbps total to split among their various subchannels for weather, traffic, news, etc. Until now, most subchannels were SD, so that left the HD feed with most of the bandwidth. The addition of this new HD feed by certain ABC affiliates comes at the direct expense of picture quality on the main ABC HD feed, whose bandwidth was reduced from ~12.5Mbps to ~8.5Mbps.





Affected (or soon to be affected) markets include:


New York City - WABC-TV 7
Los Angeles - KABC-TV 7
Chicago - WLS-TV 7
Philadelphia - WPVI-TV 6
San Francisco Bay Area - KGO-TV 7
Houston - KTRK-TV 13
Raleigh-Durham - WTVD-TV 11
Fresno - KFSN-TV 30
Flint-Saginaw - WJRT-TV 12
Toledo - WTVG-TV 13



If this change hasn't taken affect in your market yet, you should notice it within the next 1-2 weeks.



To reiterate, these changes are being made at the affiliate level, so there may not much that cable providers (or FiOS) can do about it.



If this new channel (Live Well HD) is successful, and viewer ratings on the main ABCHD feed are unaffected, then we can probably expect the same thing to happen in many/most markets later this year.
Kudos! Thanks!

This info is from a Community Forum post at Verizon, not from Verizon themselves. The list of stations and some of the verbiage was copied from my previous post in this topic.

End user reports in this topic should be accurate, but the numbers are going to be in flux as different O&O's try different settings in the initial roll out period. And in at least one O&O market, Toledo, Live Well HD is running at 480i.

Bottom line: Bandwidth is not fixed in stone. No one knows if other ABC affiliates will pick up Live Well HD or not, but non-O&O affiliates already have subchannel programming, and have had it for years and years.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #192 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 12:54 PM
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Well, I used to watch the NBA finals (very little) on ABC. It looks like I'll boycot all ABC programming from here on out. Thanks ABC for ruining your PQ...

Raleigh, NC market
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post #193 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 12:59 PM
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KABC-DT during basketball playoffs. 7.1 averages around 8 - 8.5 Mb/s, peaks at around 9.5 Mb/s.
Was around 11.5 Mb/s before Live Well HD. Measured with TS Reader.

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post #194 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSF_LA View Post

KABC-DT during basketball playoffs. 7.1 averages around 8 - 8.5 Mb/s, peaks at around 9.5 Mb/s.
Was around 11.5 Mb/s before Live Well HD. Measured with TS Reader.


Thanks for the factual report.

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post #195 of 354 Old 05-03-2009, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

here's an email I found

TWDC.Corp.Communications@disney.com

let them have a piece of your mind. Will it do any good? probably not. But bitching about it here ain't gonna help either.

I did send a link to this thread to the GM and CE of my local ABC affiliate.

My local NBC runs ads with the GM asking viewers to e-mail comments on station operations. I've sent a couple, and always gotten courteous personal responses.

I think the stations do care and they do listen. It is the local affiliates that have the best chance of changing corporate policy based on viewer feedback.

At least that way corporate can spin themselves as being heroes when they pull the plug on this otherwise destined for failure endeavor.
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post #196 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 11:27 AM
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Here is my two cents worth on the issue. If you want to get ABC / Disney to reconsider their decision, you are going to need to convince them it is going to end up costing them revenues.

The source of revenues for most over the air television stations is advertising. Advertising is driven by viewers. Not exactly rocket science. You can bet that Disney is making a calculated decision that the degradation of signal quality is justified by their additional ad revenues. So if you really want to have an impact the best way is to get the advertisers to pull their ads. Right now ad dollars are pretty hard to come by. So advertisers have a choice of where to spend their money. Much like it is a buyers market in real estate it is an buyers market in advertising. Instead of just complaining to the stations you/we should also be complaining to the people advertising on each of these channels. When and if the advertisers start questioning the value of their advertising on the channels it will have more impact then if a few TV viewers gripe to TV station management. This is the same tactic the protesters have used in the past to get TV programs pulled for some perceived slight. I am not normally one for calling for boycotts of advertisers products, but it is an effective means of actually getting the station managements attention. A petition signed by forum members saying they are going to stop purchasing products and services advertised on these sub quality channels sent to both the advertisers and station management may have a quicker impact than all the moaning that we can do on this forum. It might also be a good idea to send copies to the industry press as well as normal public press and techno nerd press to see if other stations pick up on the idea that they should carefully consider the impact before trying something similar. Bigger advertisers should be targeted first they would have much more impact. What I like about this approach, especially if it got coverage in the public press is that it could impact station revenue without asking people to boycott their favorite programs, only the advertisers.

Anyway that is my two cents.

Below is a possible petition or email that could be sent to the advertisers / station management although it is in no way meant to suggest that it would be the only possible wording.

Dear xxxxx,

It has come to our attention that you are advertising on Kxxx in the city of xxxx.. It has also been revealed that this station has been intentionally degrading it's signal quality to gain more advertising opportunity. While we have no quarrel with your product or services, we are advising you that we are trying to organize a boycott of your product line to help force the broadcaster to provide a better service to it's and your customers. We recognize you have a great many ways available for you to advertise your product, and we urge you to consider using an alternative venue that will respect the wishes of it's and your customers. After all is it not in your best interest that your advertisements' be displayed at the highest technical standard possible rather than deliberately degraded so that the station can sell more ads to you and your competitors?

In respect to the above we the undersigned do respectfully request that you discuss our mutual concerns with the broadcaster and redirect your advertising spending to other stations that are technically superior.

Thank you for your consideration.

Respectfully the consumer forum for technical excellence in broadcasting.

Works
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post #197 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 11:52 AM
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Works, that is very much along the lines I posted earlier. I too believe it is the most effective method to impact this issue. I might consider just boycotting ABC/Disney even though there are a few shows there I enjoy, perhaps wait for the blu ray and rent it to see them. I don't know. I feel that a line needs to be drawn soon, or HD as we have know and loved it will be history, for a lot us us early adopters it already is. Quality is much below what it used to be.
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post #198 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 12:04 PM
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Sorry if i duplicated your post I read a lot of them but did not look at them all.

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post #199 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 12:48 PM
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No, not at all. You expanded on a point I made early on. My point was that companies spend $$$ to make their products look good on TV and ABC reduces that quality dramatically. Olive Garden is one that comes to mind. On a good HD feed the pictures is stunning, perhaps even mouth wateringly good. On my local ABC it's mushy looking and not appetizing at all, a significant problem if I was the advertiser.
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post #200 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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WTVD in Raleigh has changed Live Well to 480i with a significant improvement to the video on ABC. My guess is that they have figured out that what they've done ain't workin'.
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post #201 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posg View Post

WTVD in Raleigh has changed Live Well to 480i with a significant improvement to the video on ABC. My guess is that they have figured out that what they've done ain't workin'.

What the heck! Why hasn't WABC followed suit!?
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post #202 of 354 Old 05-04-2009, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Works View Post

You can bet that Disney is making a calculated decision that the degradation of signal quality is justified by their additional ad revenues.

The nonsensical part is that this could have been the decision that resulted from their calculations.

It's not imaginable that being in HD gets any additional advertising onto Livewell than it would have if it were broadcast in 480i.  This "calculated decision" was no calculation at all but just a marketing gimmick under the belief that "LivewellHD" sounds cooler than "Livewell."

Broadcasting Livewell in HD to the detriment of the PQ of ABC network programming was a brainless, out-of-touch, uninformed, half-witted, ivory-tower marketing decision made in a vacuum.  Can anyone seriously argue that Livewell's fare benefits from 720p resolution, let alone enough to justify the damage to ABC network programming?
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post #203 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posg View Post

WTVD in Raleigh has changed Live Well to 480i with a significant improvement to the video on ABC. My guess is that they have figured out that what they've done ain't workin'.

Thank goodness. I need to revisit WTVD now. Boycott over.
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post #204 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 11:04 AM
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Checking WABC-DT today the video is good with a max of about 11.5 MBPS.
Live With Regis and Kelly and The View looked clean.
There's is still increased artifacting during fast movement and cross fades of video.
It would be nice if 7.1 could go back to 14mpbs and LiveWellHD could be downconverted to standard def.
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post #205 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCsoftball7 View Post

Thank goodness. I need to revisit WTVD now. Boycott over.

I just hope it's permanent.
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post #206 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

The nonsensical part is that this could have been the decision that resulted from their calculations.

It's not imaginable that being in HD gets any additional advertising onto Livewell than it would have if it were broadcast in 480i.* This "calculated decision" was no calculation at all but just a marketing gimmick under the belief that "LivewellHD" sounds cooler than "Livewell."

Broadcasting Livewell in HD to the detriment of the PQ of ABC network programming was a brainless, out-of-touch, uninformed, half-witted, ivory-tower marketing decision made in a vacuum.* Can anyone seriously argue that Livewell's fare benefits from 720p resolution, let alone enough to justify the damage to ABC network programming?

Have you ever seen those D* commercials with the cable execs? I envision that as the meetings about this.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!


My Samsung 55" D8000 LED-3D tv settings.
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post #207 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posg View Post

I just hope it's permanent.

Well, if not, they are wasting their money on advertising. I'm sure there will be a lot of people who will choose to not watch sub-par HD. Our voices should be heard.
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post #208 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

Checking WABC-DT today the video is good with a max of about 11.5 MBPS.
Live With Regis and Kelly and The View looked clean.
There's is still increased artifacting during fast movement and cross fades of video.
It would be nice if 7.1 could go back to 14mpbs and LiveWellHD could be downconverted to standard def.

Livewell would probably look fine at 480p widescreen, & that should be enough to make the main 7.1 fine as well.
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post #209 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatChicken View Post

Livewell would probably look fine at 480p widescreen, & that should be enough to make the main 7.1 fine as well.

Livewell would look good enough at 480i widescreen or 480i letterboxed.
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post #210 of 354 Old 05-05-2009, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

Livewell would look good enough at 480i widescreen or 480i letterboxed.

It's actually more watchable (content aside) at 480 without the picture collapsing into blocks at every small movement. The big problem is the branding, which has "HD" in it.
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