Turner Classic Movies (TCM) in HDTV! - Page 44 - AVS Forum
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post #1291 of 1770 Old 05-02-2012, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Maybe it's my eyes, but that doesn't even look like true HD to me. Lacks fine detail, with some edge enhancement added to make it appear sharper.

Keep in mind that these are photos of a TV screen.
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post #1292 of 1770 Old 05-03-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Maybe it's my eyes, but that doesn't even look like true HD to me. Lacks fine detail, with some edge enhancement added to make it appear sharper.

Hello ,

The film dates from 1938 and despite the old age the restoration is very well, good it is not Blu ray no longer...

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1293 of 1770 Old 05-03-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Urga View Post

Hello ,

The film dates from 1938 and despite the old age the restoration is very well, good it is not Blu ray no longer...

Beautiful stuff, Urga. I haven't seen anything that looks as good on any channel or tv set in this country.
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post #1294 of 1770 Old 05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
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A few days ago I watched "The Conspirators" (1944) on TCM. "The Conspirators" is one of a few war time made movies about WW II that came out at a time of great fear in the world. The movie features both Peter Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet. This film is notable for being in the same chronological film accomplishments along with "Casablanca" (also starring Paul Henreid) and "The Maltese Falcon". And you can't forget Hedwig Eva Maria Kiesler in this one.

However, the film looks like it is being lost forever to time. Yet, how much more of a theatrical experience it could be for someone who has never experienced the film if it and some others of that time period were restored to HD like the film's historical younger brother, "Casablanca"?

What better way to honor the memory of these European war refugees and what their collaborative contribution show us about the enduring spirit of human race.

But the TCM suits just don't get it and until they do, they will be committing a cultural genocide of the American story.
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post #1295 of 1770 Old 05-03-2012, 07:38 PM
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However, the film [The Conspirators]looks like it is being lost forever to time. Yet, how much more of a theatrical experience it could be for someone who has never experienced the film if it and some others of that time period were restored to HD like the film's historical younger brother, "Casablanca"?

Restoration can cost thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions. There are hundreds of thousands of films worldwide in need of care, maybe more. Do the math.

A great percentage of these films probably don't have elements that would clean up very well and meet Blu-ray standards. And a great many of them would have a very tiny audience.

Casablanca was a special case. The next Warners film to win the Oscar didn't come along until My Fair Lady. It was stored with tender loving care; most films don't get this sort of treatment.

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post #1296 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 01:06 AM
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Hello ,

" Charade " :

http://tcmcinema.fr/films/fiche/charade-1963_3838/

HD restored film that I expect to review.

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1297 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe3 View Post

A few days ago I watched "The Conspirators" (1944) on TCM. "The Conspirators" is one of a few war time made movies about WW II that came out at a time of great fear in the world. The movie features both Peter Lorre and Sydney Greenstreet. This film is notable for being in the same chronological film accomplishments along with "Casablanca" (also starring Paul Henreid) and "The Maltese Falcon". And you can't forget Hedwig Eva Maria Kiesler in this one.

However, the film looks like it is being lost forever to time. Yet, how much more of a theatrical experience it could be for someone who has never experienced the film if it and some others of that time period were restored to HD like the film's historical younger brother, "Casablanca"?

What better way to honor the memory of these European war refugees and what their collaborative contribution show us about the enduring spirit of human race.

But the TCM suits just don't get it and until they do, they will be committing a cultural genocide of the American story.

People can get upset about the lack of HD on TCM now, but it's nuts to knock TCM when it comes to film preservation/presentation. If TCM didn't exist there would be no TV airings of a large number of old movies and shorts. They don't cheat their way thru daily schedules like most other movie channels that will show the same movie two or three times a day.
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post #1298 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 08:18 AM
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TCM HD.Fr is the 1920x1080i , Governed output 15 Mb/s
What is in the US ?

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1299 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urga View Post

TCM HD.Fr is the 1920x1080i , Governed output 15 Mb/s
What is in the US ?

Well on Dish, its 1440x1080i and shares a 40Mbps transponder with EIGHT other HD channels. An average rate of around 4.5 Mb/s And that's a second lossy encode.
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post #1300 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StonesCat View Post

People can get upset about the lack of HD on TCM now, but it's nuts to knock TCM when it comes to film preservation/presentation. If TCM didn't exist there would be no TV airings of a large number of old movies and shorts. They don't cheat their way thru daily schedules like most other movie channels that will show the same movie two or three times a day.

+1 And they show them without commercials. For me, that's huge right there.
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post #1301 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post

Well on Dish, its 1440x1080i and shares a 40Mbps transponder with EIGHT other HD channels. An average rate of around 4.5 Mb/s And that's a second lossy encode.

1440 x 1080 on a Full HD 1920 x 1080 screen it goes upscaler image with loss of definition, it is not good .4,3 Mb/s is too compressed .

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1302 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urga View Post

1440 x 1080 on a Full HD 1920 x 1080 screen it goes upscaler image with loss of definition, it is not good .4,3 Mb/s is too compressed .

Frankly, I think that THIS is the real issue.
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post #1303 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan54 View Post

Frankly, I think that THIS is the real issue.

On Dish it's certainly an issue. Not so much for other providers. You've already had the primary explanation.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #1304 of 1770 Old 05-04-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by StonesCat View Post

People can get upset about the lack of HD on TCM now, but it's nuts to knock TCM when it comes to film preservation/presentation. If TCM didn't exist there would be no TV airings of a large number of old movies and shorts. They don't cheat their way thru daily schedules like most other movie channels that will show the same movie two or three times a day.

You are giving Turner INC, way, way too much credit. If TCM weren't around, perhaps the American Movie Classics channel would not have become the abomination its become and still have some respectability for its name sake. You seem to have no idea of what motivates the corporate governance of this international company and perhaps what they hold? We know what they hold is of great historical and cultural significance to its origin shore. And it pales to Turner INC.'s bottom line or anyone's bottom line.

Because of Turner INC.'s control and monopoly of our film history in this country, they are free to hold it hostage. We have no other distribution to compare it to until now. We have the non-american TCM that makes transparent Tuner INC,'s intent, they don't have to do anything, but make cash off of the labor and sweet of the aspiration of an American people long gone as not to have a say in this slime. Or even beg the question of whether its right or wrong for their legacy to be left in such fool's hands.
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post #1305 of 1770 Old 05-05-2012, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe3 View Post

You are giving Turner INC, way, way too much credit. If TCM weren't around, perhaps the American Movie Classics channel would not have become the abomination its become and still have some respectability for its name sake. You seem to have no idea of what motivates the corporate governance of this international company and perhaps what they hold? We know what they hold is of great historical and cultural significance to its origin shore. And it pales to Turner INC.'s bottom line or anyone's bottom line.

Because of Turner INC.'s control and monopoly of our film history in this country, they are free to hold it hostage. We have no other distribution to compare it to until now. We have the non-american TCM that makes transparent Tuner INC,'s intent, they don't have to do anything, but make cash off of the labor and sweet of the aspiration of an American people long gone as not to have a say in this slime. Or even beg the question of whether its right or wrong for their legacy to left in such fool's hands.

Unless you are a Warner Bros. insider, I suspect that you do not know what motivates the company either. The fact is that WB, in part because of it's ownership of Turner Entertainment Co., does control a very large film library. It also employs some people in important positions who are passionate about that library. But, needless to say, they have to live within budgets. So it always becomes a question of where to spend limited funds.

Maybe some foundation or agency would be prepared to fund near limitless restoration of all the films WB controls, then we would all be happy. But in the real world of commercial ownership, WB is doing a pretty decent job. And TCM is a national treasure.
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post #1306 of 1770 Old 05-06-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan54 View Post

Frankly, I think that THIS is the real issue.

Dish also provides other HD channels, remember, including HDNet Movies, etc. Does anyone have the compression figures for those channels?

Right now Dish is only devoting the space to the TCM HD that it needs for SD, since it is not HD, despite the name.
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post #1307 of 1770 Old 05-06-2012, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarod M View Post

Dish also provides other HD channels, remember, including HDNet Movies, etc. Does anyone have the compression figures for those channels?

Right now Dish is only devoting the space to the TCM HD that it needs for SD, since it is not HD, despite the name.

About the same. There are typically 8 or 9 HD channels, sometimes 10, per transponder. You can look on lyngsat.com to see for yourself. I've had eople tell me I'm nuts and DISH-HD looks awesome, but my eyes see all kinds of compression artifacts.
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post #1308 of 1770 Old 05-06-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

On Dish it's certainly an issue. Not so much for other providers. You've already had the primary explanation.

Ken, I have not seen TCM on Dish. Does it look as good there as it does on Urga's system?
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post #1309 of 1770 Old 05-06-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan54 View Post

Ken, I have not seen TCM on Dish. Does it look as good there as it does on Urga's system?

It's hard to say. Due to how we're seeing the images from Europe, an accurate comparison is difficult ro make.

What we do know is this:
- TCM HD isn't passing native HD.
- Dish typically uses less bits for HD than most other US HD providers, including Verizon FiOS, DirecTV, Comcast, TWC, WOW, etc.

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post #1310 of 1770 Old 05-14-2012, 01:24 PM
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Cinéma " Chevalier "

Csat/Kuro :









Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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This is good native HD on this film .

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1312 of 1770 Old 05-15-2012, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d3193 View Post

... And TCM is a national treasure.

... And yet, how can a treasure not worth salvaging be treasure ???
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post #1313 of 1770 Old 05-15-2012, 08:28 AM
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really good listen on alec balwdins podcast with robert osborne:
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/heresthething/2012/apr/23/

Quote:
This week on Here’s The Thing, Alec talks with Robert Osborne, host of Turner Classic Movies. Today Osborne plays the role of ambassador to a bygone era. We hear the journey he took to get there -- which could have been a classic movie itself.

Osborne tells Alec about meeting Lucille Ball: “If it had been Lana Turner I met or somebody I wouldn't have been able to talk, but it was Lucille Ball.” Nonetheless, Ball ended up playing an influential role in Osborne’s life, encouraging him to pursue writing over acting. Later Osborne explains some of challenges he faced at The Hollywood Reporter, when he found himself writing what was really supposed to be a gossip column: “I never felt comfortable intruding upon people that wanted to keep a secret. Because I think secrets are important to have.”

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post #1314 of 1770 Old 05-15-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urga View Post

This is good native HD on this film .

This is the sharpest and most detailed television that I have ever seen. It is far superior to American television for some reason. Do you have any explanation or, simply, accept what you have?
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post #1315 of 1770 Old 05-16-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

A great percentage of these films probably don't have elements that would clean up very well and meet Blu-ray standards. And a great many of them would have a very tiny audience. .

There are no Blu-ray standards for source materials.

Whether it's the moon landing, the last copy of a classic film,
the Zapruder film or even just your favorite film as a kid.

All of these deserve a place on media that offers transparent
delivery without adding artifacts.

DVD and Standard Definition TV visibly degrade the presentation
and are a waste of time in this era.

Would you refuse to attend a 35mm screening of an old feature if you
discovered that the print had not been restored?

Of course not.

It's a mistake to say that all films need to be restored before
release on Blu-ray or showings on HDTV.

Early non-restored releases could allow the film to earn money
and help in its upkeep.

Waiting for overblown pompous restorations is not the answer.

TCM should scan these films as part of regular maintenance.
And the audience that cares should be allowed to witness the
resulting progress in the form of a timely and ever-growing
series of HD presentations.

The fact that we are seeing very little from TCM raises
questions about their stewardship of these cultural artifacts.

Perhaps they don't have a strategy grand enough to save
the huge library.

Steve
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post #1316 of 1770 Old 05-16-2012, 03:35 PM
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It's a mistake to say that all films need to be restored before
release on Blu-ray or showings on HDTV


...and I don't.

DVD and Standard Definition TV visibly degrade the presentation
and are a waste of time in this era.

Would you refuse to attend a 35mm screening of an old feature if you
discovered that the print had not been restored?


It sounds like you are saying two mutually exclusive things. Some things seem to exist in such a sad state that Blu-ray would add very little. I still buy DVDs of certain things. But some films seem to exist only in soft-focus 16mm dupes.

TCM should scan these films as part of regular maintenance.
And the audience that cares should be allowed to witness the
resulting progress in the form of a timely and ever-growing
series of HD presentations.


Where does the money for this come from? Ted seems to have a sincere, genuine interest in film preservation. But when you think of it, how does TCM make money, anyway??

The fact that we are seeing very little from TCM raises
questions about their stewardship of these cultural artifacts.

Perhaps they don't have a strategy grand enough to save
the huge library.


Believe me, their stewardship beats just about anyone else's.

Everyone needs to realize:

Collecting of optical media going through a nosedive. People aren't voting with their money any more. The beancounters look and find it more and more difficult to justify money outlaid to do restorations.

Blu-ray media are driving the sales of large-screen HDTVs. The behavior of film companies over and over prove that they feel everything must be sharpened and smoothed-out to resemble what the consumer is used to on over-the-air HDTV transmission.

As such, companies may feel that unrestored product may stall the rise of this new standard. I would love seeing stuff like The Happy Years or Lassie Come Home in high def, unrestored, out of register Tech layers and everything. But the film companies may feel differently.

CW Hinkle
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post #1317 of 1770 Old 05-16-2012, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

It's a mistake to say that all films need to be restored before
release on Blu-ray or showings on HDTV


...and I don't.

DVD and Standard Definition TV visibly degrade the presentation
and are a waste of time in this era.

Would you refuse to attend a 35mm screening of an old feature if you
discovered that the print had not been restored?


It sounds like you are saying two mutually exclusive things. Some things seem to exist in such a sad state that Blu-ray would add very little. I still buy DVDs of certain things. But some films seem to exist only in soft-focus 16mm dupes.

It sounds like you would indeed prefer to see the 35mm screening.

When you attend a 35mm screening you get in touch with the state of
the film. We are denied that experience thanks to TCM.


Quote:
TCM should scan these films as part of regular maintenance.
And the audience that cares should be allowed to witness the
resulting progress in the form of a timely and ever-growing
series of HD presentations.


Where does the money for this come from? Ted seems to have a sincere, genuine interest in film preservation. But when you think of it, how does TCM make money, anyway??

Perhaps I should have said ROUTINE maintenance instead of "regular".

But these films do require some routine maintenance.

And I suggest that they should run the films through HD scanners
as part of routine maintenance, not grandiose restorations.

Any film fit to be screened through projectors is fit to be run
through a quick and painless HD scan.

Your reply about lack of "restoration money"
is an answer to a different question.

If you're saying that TCM can't afford the money for routine maintenance
of these titles, then they don't deserve to have them.

Several decades ago people were surprised to learn of the indifferent
treatment afforded to libraries of the major studios.

Perhaps we will see a repeat of this in 10 or 20 years.

Quote:

The fact that we are seeing very little from TCM raises
questions about their stewardship of these cultural artifacts.

Perhaps they don't have a strategy grand enough to save
the huge library.


Believe me, their stewardship beats just about anyone else's.

Sadly, we have no way to compare.

There is no strategy.

There is no visible progress.

"Trust me" is the word from them.

Meanwhile we can plainly see that the French TCM outlet is doing
a much better job than the one controlled by TCM USA.

The French version is probably not even under control of TCM.

Quote:
Everyone needs to realize:

Collecting of optical media going through a nosedive. People aren't voting with their money any more. The beancounters look and find it more and more difficult to justify money outlaid to do restorations.

Blu-ray media are driving the sales of large-screen HDTVs. The behavior of film companies over and over prove that they feel everything must be sharpened and smoothed-out to resemble what the consumer is used to on over-the-air HDTV transmission.

As such, companies may feel that unrestored product may stall the rise of this new standard. I would love seeing stuff like The Happy Years or Lassie Come Home in high def, unrestored, out of register Tech layers and everything. But the film companies may feel differently.

I mentioned distribution via optical *and* HDTV networks.

VOD companies like NETFLIX are desperate for good libraries but TCM
is caught with its pants down unable to make a sale
of their awful-looking catalog.

By the way, most of the films I'm talking about are B&W,
exhibiting no color problems.

The Bottom line from TCM...

Keep watching your awful DVD and SDTV copies of our movies, and
we will sit back in our lush screening rooms and enjoy
35mm screenings of movies you'd like to see.

You wouldn't want to see anything better because it's not Blu-ray quality.

If TCM can't figure out how to make money from
their product then we need to be worried.

Steve
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post #1318 of 1770 Old 05-16-2012, 07:52 PM
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If TCM can't figure out how to make money from
their product then we need to be worried.


I fear TCM exists as Ted Turner's hobby; I think he has grown to love film and is conscious of his responsibility to what he owns and is under his care.

If it falls into another person's hands then I think we do have reasons to worry.

CW Hinkle
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post #1319 of 1770 Old 05-17-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swSteve View Post


TCM should scan these films as part of regular maintenance.
And the audience that cares should be allowed to witness the
resulting progress in the form of a timely and ever-growing
series of HD presentations.

The fact that we are seeing very little from TCM raises
questions about their stewardship of these cultural artifacts.

Perhaps they don't have a strategy grand enough to save
the huge library.

Steve


"I fear TCM exists as Ted Turner's hobby; I think he has grown to love film and is conscious of his responsibility to what he owns and is under his care."


I hope I'm not being pedantic in pointing out that TCM does not own any of the classic films it shows, and Ted Turner does not own TCM.

The films are owned by Turner Entertainment Co. and Warner Bros.
Ted sold all his networks (CNN, TBS, TNT and TCM) to Time/Warner many years back and no longer has any say in how they are run.

Those at WB responsible for maintaining and restoring the films in the library have to fight for funds like any other group in a large corporation. I know who some of these people are, and they are passionate about films. But they have to prove that their division overall can make a profit for the company. Unless some foundation or individual comes up with additional funds to do the job, that's the way it will be. That's how most of corporate America works.

What TCM does is show that there's a vast audience out there for classic movies, an audience that wants to collect them and will pay to do so. That allows WB to risk spending money on maintaining and restoring its library.

It's far from a perfect situation, but what's the alternative?
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post #1320 of 1770 Old 05-17-2012, 08:33 AM
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The films are owned by Turner Entertainment Co. and Warner Bros.
Ted sold all his networks (CNN, TBS, TNT and TCM) to Time/Warner many years back and no longer has any say in how they are run.


Doesn't Ted still own the film library he bought when he bought and held (oh so briefly) MGM?

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