Turner Classic Movies (TCM) in HDTV! - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

It was mentioned earlier in this thread both feeds originate from the same location.


No, they don't.

The have an HD system in place with one or more SD components in the middle of the chain. That's far different than an SD workflow that upconverts it all at the end of the line.

It's a long thread, and I haven't found where it was mentioned that both feeds originate in Atlanta, but I've learned that something being posted here does not necessarily make it true - although, of course, it may be. [edit: I just checked the thread and cannot find where anyone says that the French feed originates in the US. Did I miss it?]

The point of my last paragraph was that when you have an SD chain (which TCM did have, whether or not that is currently the case), an upconverter at the end of that chain is relatively cheap.

From your online name I assume that you are very conversant with television broadcast systems, and I am not challenging your knowledge and/or expertise. I have been out of the TV business for a number of years now and it is more than possible that you have better insider info than I do.
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post #1352 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solfan View Post

Hi Urga,
Is this movie "Chevalier" also known as "A Knight's Tale"?
Did you take your photos of it recently?

I'm just asking because "A Knight's Tale" isn't listed on the [USA] TCM April or May schedules...

The US and France are on two completely different schedules.
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post #1353 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

It was mentioned earlier in this thread both feeds originate from the same location.

I don't think that's correct, at all.

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post #1354 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I still think it's a rights issue.

Entirely possible.

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post #1355 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solfan View Post


Hi Urga,
Is this movie "Chevalier" also known as "A Knight's Tale"?
Did you take your photos of it recently?

I'm just asking because "A Knight's Tale" isn't listed on the [USA] TCM April or May schedules...

Yes, it looks like "A Knight's Tale."
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post #1356 of 1773 Old 05-20-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

This sounds like an even more likely reason, which sort of makes the whole idea of a TCM HD channel rather silly, the ultimate bait and switch, create an HD channel for the subscriber money but never put any HD on it. I guess DirecTV said they're not going to play that game.

Which begs the question. Has there ever been another instance where an HD channel was created without at least *something* on that channel airing in HD almost immediately?
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post #1357 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

TCM does not own the films they show.

Yes they do.


TCM is a unit of Warner.
Warner owns a huge library of these films.

Conclusion: They own the films.


Quote:


They CANNOT make HD scans of the films. They have to pay for all the films they show.

Yes they can.

Quote:


If their providers don't have HD scans, there is nothing they can do about it.

They are their own providers.

From Wikipedia

1. Turner Classic Movies (TCM) is a movie-oriented cable television channel, owned by the Turner Broadcasting System subsidiary of Time Warner, featuring commercial-free classic movies, mostly from the Turner Entertainment film library, which comprises mainly (pre-1986 MGM, RKO) and pre-1948 Warner Bros. films. TCM is headquartered at the Techwood Campus in Atlanta, Georgia, in Midtown.


2. In 1996, the Turner Broadcasting System merged with Time Warner. Not only did this put TCM and Warner Bros. under the same corporate umbrella, but it also gave TCM access to the post-1949 Warner Bros. library (which itself includes other acquired properties such as the Lorimar, Saul Zaentz, and National General Pictures libraries); incidentally, TCM had already been running some of Warner's film titles through a licensing agreement with the studio made prior to the launch of the channel.


3. TCM's vast library of films spans several decades of cinema and includes thousands of film titles.

LINK to TCM page on Wikipedia


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post #1358 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StudioTech View Post

Which begs the question. Has there ever been another instance where an HD channel was created without at least *something* on that channel airing in HD almost immediately?

There have been a few. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure which ones they were. TruTV, maybe? Also, I don't think TBS was showing anything in HD at launch.
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post #1359 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 01:10 AM
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swSteve,
You are wrong, and are misinterpreting what you read on wikipedia. I spend a lot of time on the TCM web forums, and this subject comes up a lot. TCM no longer owns the Turner Film Library, and hasn't, since 1996. True, they are both owned by the same parent company, but TCM has to pay for every film they show that comes from the Turner Film Library. TCM does NOT control the Turner Film Library. They have no say over what happens to the films, who can rent them, if HD transfers are made, if they are restored, none of that. That's not the way corporations work. Time-Warner owns Warner, Warner Home Video, TCM, and the Turner Film Library. But, they are all separate entities, and have no control over each other.
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post #1360 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

swSteve,
You are wrong, and are misinterpreting what you read on wikipedia. I spend a lot of time on the TCM web forums, and this subject comes up a lot. TCM no longer owns the Turner Film Library, and hasn't, since 1996. True, they are both owned by the same parent company, but TCM has to pay for every film they show that comes from the Turner Film Library. TCM does NOT control the Turner Film Library. They have no say over what happens to the films, who can rent them, if HD transfers are made, if they are restored, none of that. That's not the way corporations work. Time-Warner owns Warner, Warner Home Video, TCM, and the Turner Film Library. But, they are all separate entities, and have no control over each other.

I do indeed understand that TCM runs with all sorts of accounting
and books showing how they "pay" for movies sourced mostly from other Warner units.

But splitting the old TCM into TCM-TV/HD and "Turner Film Library"
did not have to lead to this disaster if cooperation had been ordered.

Does this separation of units give them the right to stop all progress?

TCM-HD should be regularly showcasing HD progress.

Why doesn't TCM-HD scream and shout to the Warner higher ups and
tell them what many of us are saying in our posts? That TCM-HD is
a complete failure unless it can be stocked with (and show) HD movies.

If, as is suggested, TCM pays real money for films from other Warner units,
why can't they withhold that money and demand real HD content?


Why did I see Warner's Rebel Without a Cause in HD on
a channel other than TCM-HD?

How could VOOM years ago buy HD versions of films from other sources
while TCM-HD somehow cannot accomplish this?

Clearly some providers are willing to pony up HD versions,
so TCM-HD should show them.

It's not rocket science to switch on some HD
and it would show some backbone.

Putting up some actual HD on TCM-HD might even attract
other providers such as DirecTv.

Isn't that what channels are supposed to do? Attract viewers?
So that they could make more money?


Ultimately, a cheap corporate accounting trick has spread the
responsibility for the problem to multiple Warner units instead of one.


Steve
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post #1361 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

This sounds like an even more likely reason, which sort of makes the whole idea of a TCM HD channel rather silly, the ultimate bait and switch, create an HD channel for the subscriber money but never put any HD on it. I guess DirecTV said they're not going to play that game.

...nor did FiOS.

Doug
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post #1362 of 1773 Old 05-21-2012, 10:23 AM
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Isn't there some media type that can interview the appropriate corporate official to learn the details of what is really happening? Endless speculation should not be necessary.
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post #1363 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruin95 View Post

There have been a few. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure which ones they were. TruTV, maybe? Also, I don't think TBS was showing anything in HD at launch.

Most of the MTV networks as well as CMT.
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post #1364 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swSteve View Post

Why doesn't TCM-HD scream and shout to the Warner higher ups and
tell them what many of us are saying in our posts? That TCM-HD is
a complete failure unless it can be stocked with (and show) HD movies.

I suspect TCM simply doesn't have the signal chain in place to play HD content, even if they had it.

I also think TCM is kept around as a begrudging loss leader if you will by the higher-ups; they get lots of good press for it but it doesn't generate much revenue.
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post #1365 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solfan View Post

Hi Urga,
Is this movie "Chevalier" also known as "A Knight's Tale"?
Did you take your photos of it recently?

I'm just asking because "A Knight's Tale" isn't listed on the [USA] TCM April or May schedules...

Hello ,

http://tcmcinema.fr/categories/programmes-jour/

Broadcast of the film on 05/14, 2012.

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX55 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .

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post #1366 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 01:21 PM
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I have sat back and listen to this thread to be sure of what I am about to say.

This is clearly a TCM thread. TCM has a lot of fans here. Howevere, they are also various TCM apologist and fan boys, I strongly suspect some of them to be TCM or Turner Inc. employees. Fine, if they want to play that game.

They may or may not be stewards on paper, but they are by their very nature and exclusively of what they present stewards of these films in the US.

Also, the fact that they are not doing this kookie kabuki dance with the quality of the presentations at their european counter part makes them a suspect party in being a cohort to regretful stewardship of our cultural heritage.

Boys, "tell it to the marines." The kookie kabuki dance of native HD to SD and back to up converted HD doesn't fly for TCM as an excuse to present our film history which is a cultural treasure in such a cruddy way.

Shame on TCM.
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post #1368 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
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The last post to that thread was May 14th of 2010, more than 2 years ago...wonder why no one has asked the question lately on the TCM forum, maybe tired of their questions falling on deaf ears
Note the TCM forum(or as they call it message board) is opposite any I've seen before, newest posts are page 1 while older posts get pushed to higher numbers as posts go on.
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post #1369 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 03:20 PM
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I was perusing the TCM Forum recently(never joined).I remember one reason(excuse)being floated there by the TCM loyalists/fanboys is that they're "building a library of HD titles before they go HD". Baloney!!

About the only thing TCM is "building" is anger and frustration among its viewers, including me.
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post #1370 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urga View Post

Hello ,

http://tcmcinema.fr/categories/programmes-jour/

Broadcast of the film on 05/14, 2012.

Thks for your replies, guys.
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post #1371 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser View Post

I was perusing the TCM Forum recently(never joined).I remember one reason(excuse)being floated there by the TCM loyalists/fanboys is that they're "building a library of HD titles before they go HD". Baloney!!

About the only thing TCM is "building" is anger and frustration among its viewers, including me.

The saddest thing about this whole situation is that the overwhelming majority of the people who watch TCM-HD have no clue they are not really watching HD. That alone helps TCM in dragging their feet even longer. They're in no hurry to bring actual HD content to the channel, because their audience thinks they already have it.
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post #1372 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe3 View Post

I have sat back and listen to this thread to be sure of what I am about to say.

This is clearly a TCM thread. TCM has a lot of fans here. Howevere, they are also various TCM apologist and fan boys, I strongly suspect some of them to be TCM or Turner Inc. employees. Fine, if they want to play that game.

Totally wrong.


Quote:
Shame on TCM.

Shame on you for not giving them credit for all the things they do right.

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post #1373 of 1773 Old 05-22-2012, 09:18 PM
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Fan of TCM, I am. I post on their upside-down "Message Boards" as Valentine Xavier. I am certainly NOT employed by TCM. I think if TCM staff posted here, they would identify themselves as such. If I see somewhere that TCM screws up, I am quite willing to say so. As "fan boy" implies mindless sycophant, I am not a "fan boy."

The following are true:

TCM HD isn't true HD.

Since TCM has never specifically stated why, we can only speculate why.

Virtually all TCM fans would like to have TCM in HD.

Virtually all TCM fans would love it if the Turner Film Library did restorations and new HD transfers of all of their titles.

TCM has NO control over the Turner Film Library, except for titles they lease, during the lease period.

Think about it - "Brands formerly owned by PepsiCo include: Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, KFC, Hot 'n Now, East Side Mario's, D'Angelo Sandwich Shops, Chevys Fresh Mex, California Pizza Kitchen, Stolichnaya, Wilson Sporting Goods and North American Van Lines." (from wikipedia) So, when PepsiCo owned them all, Could KFC tell Taco Bell how to run their business, or not to locate next to a KFC, for fear of competition? Could Pizza Hut ask North American Van Lines to move a restaurant for them, for free, or even special rates? Could NAVL call up Stolichnaya and ask for some vodka, for free? Corporations don't work that way. Just because TCM and the Turner Film Library have the same parent corp., it doesn't mean that one has ANY control over the other.
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post #1374 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

TCM has NO control over the Turner Film Library, except for titles they lease, during the lease period.

Think about it - "Brands formerly owned by PepsiCo include: Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, KFC, (etc)." So, when PepsiCo owned them all, Could KFC tell Taco Bell how to run their business, or not to locate next to a KFC, for fear of competition? Just because TCM and the Turner Film Library have the same parent corp., it doesn't mean that one has ANY control over the other.


Then why is Coca-Cola not available at Taco Bell, Pizza Hut or KFC?


I doubt that Taco Bell buys anything from Chevy's or KFC. And they
probably do not tell each other what to do.


Suppose Taco Bell set up a duplicate chain with the exact same menu
but they called it "Taco Bell DeLuxe" and located it next door to each and
every Taco Bell.

Naturally, people would feel cheated once they discovered that
"Taco Bell DeLuxe" was no better than "Taco Bell".


Now back to the question.

TCM and the Turner Library act as one company. TCM was set up to
make money from the library.

TCM would go bust if it had to compete on equal footing with others
for access to the Warner / Turner Library.

How close are they?

Here's a Resume excerpt I found from someone who once worked there.
(Yes - after the supposed split)
================== START =====================
Media Services Supervisor
Turner Broadcasting
Public Company; 5001-10,000 employees; TWX; Broadcast Media industry
February 1999 - May 2004 (5 years 4 months)

Supervised completion and quality of all on-air media under strict deadlines on a daily basis for Turner Classic Movies cable television network. Served as liaison between TCM Programming, Film Library, Turner Studios, Log Management and Standards and Practices departments. Maintained integrity and corrected errors of TCM media data in company-wide database
================== END =====================

Note how it says "company-wide"?

The company really is just Turner Broadcasting and they are all in the
same business.

Consider this news release.
==============START=================
Michael Wright Named President, Head of Programming for TNT, TBS and Turner Classic Movies (TCM)
- 01 May 2012

Michael Wright has been promoted to President, Head of Programming for TNT, TBS and Turner Classic Movies (TCM). In this elevated role, Wright will continue to oversee all programming and scheduling for TNT and TBS, along with original programming for TCM and original content for all three networks' digital extensions.
===============END==================

Any separation is a paper-only accounting device of convenience
for taxes earnings etc.


Steve
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post #1375 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 04:29 AM
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Not sure if anyone has bothered, or if anyone cares, but here are a few screenshots from the standard definition video transmitted on TCM HD in the US:




As you can see it's rather soft looking as expected -- for those that say the regular standard def feed looks better: the low bitrate (2 to 3Mbps) of the 704x480 feed really causes more video artifacting/macroblocking when compared to the upscaled 1080i version.

The only plus compared to the true HD version from France is the lack of a constant onscreen logo.

Video quality will vary among providers as well as by film, so ymmv.
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post #1376 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe3 View Post

Boys, "tell it to the marines." The kookie kabuki dance of native HD to SD and back to up converted HD doesn't fly for TCM as an excuse to present our film history which is a cultural treasure in such a cruddy way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Totally wrong.

Quote:


Shame on TCM.

Quote:


Shame on you for not giving them credit for all the things they do right.

Regardless of who's fault it is, the feeds on TCM HD are uniformly not HD. Consequently, I have stopped watching anything there. Given the many wonderful films TCM airs it's a frustrating loss but at this late date I refuse to watch any film not shown in HD. Rather than curse the darkness, I decided to light one candle by simply dropping TCM HD as one of my movie sources. I leave it to others to decide what this says about how many things TCM is doing right.
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post #1377 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 07:38 AM
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There's a bunch of other channels out there that show older movies in HD, and most of them are in OAR. HDNEt Movies, MGM, Sony, Epix, Showtime, Retroplex(hit and miss), etc. So I'll skip the TCM presentations when there's options available, but to just tune out the channel on the flicks you don't see elsewhere(along with the 30s and 40s movies) is stupid. At least they're not promoting themselves in commercials or on-air as HD, when other channels have gone that route before.
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post #1378 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Fan of TCM, I am. I post on their upside-down "Message Boards" as Valentine Xavier. I am certainly NOT employed by TCM. I think if TCM staff posted here, they would identify themselves as such. If I see somewhere that TCM screws up, I am quite willing to say so. As "fan boy" implies mindless sycophant, I am not a "fan boy."

The following are true:

TCM HD isn't true HD.

Since TCM has never specifically stated why, we can only speculate why.

Virtually all TCM fans would like to have TCM in HD.

Virtually all TCM fans would love it if the Turner Film Library did restorations and new HD transfers of all of their titles.

TCM has NO control over the Turner Film Library, except for titles they lease, during the lease period.

Think about it - "Brands formerly owned by PepsiCo include: Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, KFC, Hot 'n Now, East Side Mario's, D'Angelo Sandwich Shops, Chevys Fresh Mex, California Pizza Kitchen, Stolichnaya, Wilson Sporting Goods and North American Van Lines." (from wikipedia) So, when PepsiCo owned them all, Could KFC tell Taco Bell how to run their business, or not to locate next to a KFC, for fear of competition? Could Pizza Hut ask North American Van Lines to move a restaurant for them, for free, or even special rates? Could NAVL call up Stolichnaya and ask for some vodka, for free? Corporations don't work that way. Just because TCM and the Turner Film Library have the same parent corp., it doesn't mean that one has ANY control over the other.

If you wait long enough someone comes along to prove your point.

Thank You.
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post #1379 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 08:05 AM
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No one has any way of knowing?



“Watson, I must disagree old friend.” Using the most naïve powers of deductive reasoning and what we know as collusion, the pieces of the puzzle come together rather nicely. “” Before the game is afoot, thou still let'st slip." “
The lack of true HD proves TCM/turner Inc., and WB are cooperating or working together when they should be competing. A non-competitive agreement between rivals that attempts to disrupt the natural market's equilibrium by collaborating with each other, TCM and WB look to fix the price of historical cultural works they hold hostage to their advantage. The parties collectively choose to restrict the supply of these historical cultural works, and/or agree to control distribution and production at a price in order to maximize profits. The collusion involves the collusion of sellers my dear boy, TCM/Turner Inc. and WB who inflate the price of an asset that they otherwise could not accomplished alone to realize higher profits.
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post #1380 of 1773 Old 05-23-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Given that Warner Brothers has kept a lot of their vintage movies off streaming I think they are being protective (sometimes overly) of their "classic" films. You can get some of them as copy protected "one off" DVD-Rs from their "classic films" service. Hence they may not want any HD versions broadcast so they can sell you a BD later on. I do note they now have made some "classics" available on Vudu.

I'll be home video has zero to do with it. I'll bet it's closer to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StonesCat View Post

There's a bunch of other channels out there that show older movies in HD, and most of them are in OAR. HDNEt Movies, MGM, Sony, Epix, Showtime, Retroplex(hit and miss), etc.

I'll bet it comes down to selling the HD rights for more money to another network than what they would make airing those films on TCM in HD.

By airing them in upconverted SD, they can sell exclusive HD rights to another channel while most viewers won't be able to tell the difference.

It's win-win for TCM.
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