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post #3211 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 11:27 AM
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I'm not gonna argue with you rolleyes.gif
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You surely may...I won't be offended, Slappy.smile.gif
I have my opinion as stated & you have put forth your opinion , I see no reason to take it any further . tongue.gif
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True, but not to the extent of changing the tone of the show.wink.gif
I don't see any of a TONE change that you see , I see the characters evolving wink.gif

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post #3212 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 12:23 PM
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Not at all.

When looking at the history of this series it has always been the U.S. Marshals Service who were The Good Guys...upholding the law and putting Bad Guys away, AND we applauded them for it.

However, this season we have a new Marshal Service which doesn't always play by the rules.
Why?
No explanation is given.

Here's mine: crap writing.

This is a story about a morally unstructured man. This year's writing has become progressively less thoughtful about that man and what he does. Elmore Leonard's incredible work has created Raylan in two novels: Pronto (1993) and Riding the Rap (1995) and one novella, Fire in the Hole (upon which Justified is based,) Elmore Leonard's was no doubt a fan of the show and his loss I believe affected the show in a way that the writing after his demise was never as good. It was like they lost their mentor. I believe it is not so much a coincidence that they called it their last year just after he died. It will be remembered as one one the best written shows of its time. This season, not withstanding. wink.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #3213 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Not at all.

When looking at the history of this series it has always been the U.S. Marshals Service who were The Good Guys...upholding the law and putting Bad Guys away, AND we applauded them for it.

However, this season we have a new Marshal Service which doesn't always play by the rules.
Why?
No explanation is given.

Here's mine: crap writing.

I disagree that it's crap writing. Instead, making law enforcement folks look almost as flawed as the crooks they are pursuing, is patented Elmore Leonard. In the Elmore-verse, everybody has a hidden agenda and is looking out for Number One. I love out! smile.gif
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post #3214 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 05:07 PM
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I disagree that it's crap writing. Instead, making law enforcement folks look almost as flawed as the crooks they are pursuing, is patented Elmore Leonard. In the Elmore-verse, everybody has a hidden agenda and is looking out for Number One. I love out! smile.gif

LE being "flawed" is very Elmore. The Raylan/Boyd juxtaposition and "there by the grace of God" or some such duality of the two is a recurring theme of every season. Who can forget that almost every time Raylan & Boyd meet, Boyd taunts Raylan saying "You're no different from me." This is not news. What ever shady business LE did or did not do here is a molehill compared to the mountain of Raylan's deliberate instigation of murder that ended one season.

Where the writing has been I think justly criticized is the long overly drawn out Ava in prison sub plot culminating with the confusing way that Raylan and the Marshals office and the ADA ended her stint.

This viewer easily lets that slide given the show's otherwise excellence.

If they go into LOST final season's 2 retarded brothers territory or Battlestar Galactica pull final 5s & angels outa your ass territory next season, I'll be the 1st with torches & pitchforks for the writers.
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post #3215 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 05:41 PM
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I have my opinion as stated & you have put forth your opinion , I see no reason to take it any further . tongue.gif
I don't see any of a TONE change that you see , I see the characters evolving wink.gif
Fair enough...but don't you want to take just ONE shot across by bow?tongue.gif

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Elmore Leonard's was no doubt a fan of the show and his loss I believe affected the show in a way that the writing after his demise was never as good. It was like they lost their mentor.
I'm beginning to think that too.
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I believe it is not so much a coincidence that they called it their last year just after he died.
Neither do I.

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It will be remembered as one one the best written shows of its time. This season, not withstanding. wink.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I disagree that it's crap writing. Instead, making law enforcement folks look almost as flawed as the crooks they are pursuing, is patented Elmore Leonard. In the Elmore-verse, everybody has a hidden agenda and is looking out for Number One. I love out! smile.gif
We have had 4 years of this series following a well-recognized road map.
Suddenly, it makes a left-turn...without using its blinker.
This is my beef; Justified is breaking its own rules.
For what reason, I haven't a clue.

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post #3216 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 09:22 PM
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Just a quick word: there is no corallation between Leonard's death and any change in focus or tone on the show. He'd had no day to day input for some time. This year was challenging for a number of reasons, none of which had anything to do with Leonard's death.
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post #3217 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 09:31 PM
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Just a quick word: there is no corallation between Leonard's death and any change in focus or tone on the show. He'd had no day to day input for some time. This year was challenging for a number of reasons, none of which had anything to do with Leonard's death.
Can you expand on those challenges ?

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post #3218 of 3238 Old 04-15-2014, 10:49 PM
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Can you expand on those challenges ?
Yes, please.

What happened this year?
And why is the series ending?

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post #3219 of 3238 Old 04-16-2014, 05:49 AM
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Producer had commented elsewhere that the actor portraying the black member of the family gang had a big role but quit early so they had to re-write a couple episodes on the fly.
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post #3220 of 3238 Old 04-16-2014, 06:01 AM
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Producer had commented elsewhere that the actor portraying the black member of the family gang had a big role but quit early so they had to re-write a couple episodes on the fly.

That was a big one, and probably the only one that I should mention. Let me just say that, in general, this is a difficult show to write and produce with a large amount of re-writing and changes on set, and after years, people get tired of the grind. Maybe it's not good to know too much about how the sausage is being made, better to just enjoy the meal.
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post #3221 of 3238 Old 04-16-2014, 06:52 AM
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That was a big one, and probably the only one that I should mention. Let me just say that, in general, this is a difficult show to write and produce with a large amount of re-writing and changes on set, and after years, people get tired of the grind. Maybe it's not good to know too much about how the sausage is being made, better to just enjoy the meal.
Thank you for the info.

It's good to know I wasn't imagining things.wink.gif

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post #3222 of 3238 Old 04-17-2014, 09:03 AM
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Well, I loved this season. In some ways its my favorite, with the 4 new Crows we met this year some of the best written characters ever in the series. I also didn't see a profound change in the marshal's "good guy" status-everything they did fit what we already knew about them. The prison story was awkward, granted, but didn't lessen my enjoyment of the rest of the season. And it seems to setup next year's endgame.
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post #3223 of 3238 Old 04-17-2014, 09:14 AM
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Well, I loved this season. In some ways its my favorite, with the 4 new Crows we met this year some of the best written characters ever in the series. I also didn't see a profound change in the marshal's "good guy" status-everything they did fit what we already knew about them. The prison story was awkward, granted, but didn't lessen my enjoyment of the rest of the season. And it seems to setup next year's endgame.
Yeah ,
that's how I've felt all season .
I actually liked how they placed Ava in prison , it made her character depend on herself to figure out life's issues instead of depending a male to come to her rescue , as in the past 1st it was her husband who saved her from her parents , then Raylan who stepped in when her husband abused her who she shot with Raylan keeping her outta jail for that & then finally Boyd when Raylan went back to Winona . Boyd chose his own interests over Ava leaving to fend for herself . That forced her to realize that everyone places themselves 1st & now so should she .

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post #3224 of 3238 Old 04-18-2014, 10:11 AM
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. Boyd chose his own interests over Ava leaving to fend for herself . That forced her to realize that everyone places themselves 1st & now so should she .

Maybe I'm biased towards Boyd, but I don't think he really had much choice if he wanted to survive. But Raylan left that out when he told Ava about Boyd's "betrayal" so she doesn't know that.

Also, she was with Raylan before Boyd, only moving on when she caught Raylan hooking up with his ex. So it could well be Raylan and Boyd end up rivals for her affections. Nice subtext to the endgame, I think.

And I gotta say...part of me wants Boyd to win.

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post #3225 of 3238 Old 04-18-2014, 10:26 AM
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Maybe I'm biased towards Boyd, but I don't think he really had much choice if he wanted to survive.
I fully agree with that , but Ava had a princess look at life ( some guy is gonna sweep her away from her misery ) now she has realized that everyone is just looking for their own best interests & not hers . Ava now knows If she is to survive she must make decisions for her best interests & hers alone is my take on the 'New' Ava.
The either you play people OR you get played yourself tongue.gif

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post #3226 of 3238 Old 04-18-2014, 11:05 AM
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I fully agree with that , but Ava had a princess look at life ( some guy is gonna sweep her away from her misery ) now she has realized that everyone is just looking for their own best interests & not hers . Ava now knows If she is to survive she must make decisions for her best interests & hers alone is my take on the 'New' Ava.
The either you play people OR you get played yourself tongue.gif

Or, if you're playing the game of Harlan, you either win or die? smile.gif

I think you're right, and it explains the whole prison storyline. In fact, I would say all the women in this season were more independent than in the past. (other than Meg, of course) Another reason to like this season.

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post #3227 of 3238 Old 04-18-2014, 11:07 AM
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So it could well be Raylan and Boyd end up rivals for her affections.
I don't see that happening....not with Wynona and the kid out there.
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post #3228 of 3238 Old 04-18-2014, 12:50 PM
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This has to be one of my favorite series of all time! I'm sad that it's going to end, but am grateful for the enjoyment while it lasted. Some seasons were, IMO, better than others, but overall this was a class act series and I will miss it very much.

A month or so ago, I had a discussion with a coworker that only started watching this season and I told him that he HAS to go and see all the other shows...from the beginning. Last week he told me that he watched the pilot and was surprised given where it was this season, with how it all started out. He made assumptions and now he gets to see it for the first time - how they got where they did. I envy him that! I asked him to tell me along the way where he's at with the series, so in a way, I get to relive it too. I'm sure in a couple years, I'll watch the series all over again. smile.gif
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post #3229 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 01:00 AM
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I'm sure in a couple years, I'll watch the series all over again. smile.gif
I'm sure there will be an "Ultimate" BD or DVD set after next season.wink.gif

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post #3230 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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Raylan Givens, the great great great Grandson (too many or not enough greats .. ??) of Seth Bullock

Sorry to learn Season 6 will be the last ..

FX needs to step up and buy the rights to "Deadwood" and make sure Olyphant continues to work in his best medium .. tongue.gif

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post #3231 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 10:24 AM
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I like Justified way more than Deadwood.
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post #3232 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 10:47 AM
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I like Justified way more than Deadwood.

Now that starts to border on Sacrilege .. wink.gif

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post #3233 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I like Justified way more than Deadwood.

Now that starts to border on Sacrilege .. wink.gif

Burn the heretic! Burn him with fire!

Although suggesting that Deadwood move to FX is almost as bad. A show without Wu constantly calling everyone a male genital oral expert is no Deadwood. biggrin.gif


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post #3234 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 11:04 AM
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Burn the heretic! Burn him with fire!

Although suggesting that Deadwood move to FX is almost as bad. A show without Wu constantly calling everyone a male genital oral expert is no Deadwood. biggrin.gif

You know, I did think about that .. but since so many from the Deadwood troupe have appeared on FX shows (and it's a surprisingly long list) .. and it seems like the profanity barrier is loosening up some ..

But who am I kidding .. ?? FX / AMC et al would still not be able to allow every second word to be a "Swear" engen ... tongue.gif

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post #3235 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 11:22 AM
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Justified is great TV but only a hooplehead would say it's better than Deadwood. tongue.gif
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post #3236 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 02:00 PM
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Oh I don't know about better. Just like it a lot more.
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post #3237 of 3238 Old 04-19-2014, 03:46 PM
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Oh I don't know about better. Just like it a lot more.
As an Elmore Leonard geek, I understand and agree with your point.wink.gif

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post #3238 of 3238 Old 05-14-2014, 02:53 AM
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Even with the weakest season to date, it's still the best scripted show on tv. Hope it gets on the right path next season with better characters in tow.
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