'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD *** WARNING - Spoilers allowed *** - Page 110 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3271 of 3298 Old 07-09-2016, 07:42 AM
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Hi,

I don't know if there is any further interest in discussing GOT, now that the season has ended, but I am just catching up on this thread. My own approach to watching is very different from most here. I record all ten episodes each season, while studiously avoiding any discussion or potential spoilers, and then binge watch the ten episodes over a period of five days. But then I like to watch You Tube videos and catch up on some of the discussions.

I have a few thoughts I would like to add to the discussion of Arya's time in Bravos from a couple of pages back. I think her training there, in Seasons 5 and 6 was invaluable. For those who were noting that she spent most of her time with the Waif getting her butt kicked, that's pretty much what serious martial arts training is like. The Waif, in the show version, is older, larger, stronger, and more skilled in a variety of combat disciplines. But that's who you want to train with. Iron sharpens iron.

Going into that training, Arya is game (even lethal under the right circumstances) but she is unused to taking real punishment, and unskilled in anything except water dancing, which is almost balletic. A good example of that is in Season 4 when the Hound sees her practicing and makes fun of her dancing with her little sword. He invites her to attack him and she attempts to thrust into his leather and chainmail jerkin with Needle. Failing to penetrate, of course, she gets clouted in the head for her trouble. I doubt that either would have happened after her training in Bravos. If she thrust at all, it would have been to his unprotected face or throat, and his swipe at her head would not have found her so unprepared.

A poster a few pages back noted that Arya was catching up to the Waif very quickly with the staff fighting, toward the end of her training. That's why the Waif abandoned staffs to switch to hand-to-hand fighting, with which Arya was less familiar. But that was good too. Each time, Arya was learning to absorb punishment, and bounce back, and gaining in martial skills. The only way a less experienced fighter could expect to reliably defeat a stronger and more experienced fighter would be on the ground of her choosing, so she lured the Waif into a trap. She gambled that the Waif would close and bolt the door to prevent Arya's escape, and in total darkness, she felt she had a chance.

Even if the Waif had trained blindfolded at some point, actually being blind for weeks or months, 24/7, and being attacked regularly, would have given Arya a sizeable advantage. And Needle's longer reach would have helped to offset the Waif's size and strength advantage. Although I had some other issues with that sequence, the value of her training in Bravos, and her ability to defeat the Waif on the terrain of her choosing, weren't among them.

As I said at the start, I don't know if anyone else will have any further interest now that the season is over, but if so, I may post some other random thoughts.

Regards,
Mike

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post #3272 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 10:25 AM
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Hi,

I don't know if there is any further interest in discussing GOT, now that the season has ended, but I am just catching up on this thread. My own approach to watching is very different from most here. I record all ten episodes each season, while studiously avoiding any discussion or potential spoilers, and then binge watch the ten episodes over a period of five days. But then I like to watch You Tube videos and catch up on some of the discussions.

I have a few thoughts I would like to add to the discussion of Arya's time in Bravos from a couple of pages back. I think her training there, in Seasons 5 and 6 was invaluable. For those who were noting that she spent most of her time with the Waif getting her butt kicked, that's pretty much what serious martial arts training is like. The Waif, in the show version, is older, larger, stronger, and more skilled in a variety of combat disciplines. But that's who you want to train with. Iron sharpens iron.

Going into that training, Arya is game (even lethal under the right circumstances) but she is unused to taking real punishment, and unskilled in anything except water dancing, which is almost balletic. A good example of that is in Season 4 when the Hound sees her practicing and makes fun of her dancing with her little sword. He invites her to attack him and she attempts to thrust into his leather and chainmail jerkin with Needle. Failing to penetrate, of course, she gets clouted in the head for her trouble. I doubt that either would have happened after her training in Bravos. If she thrust at all, it would have been to his unprotected face or throat, and his swipe at her head would not have found her so unprepared.

A poster a few pages back noted that Arya was catching up to the Waif very quickly with the staff fighting, toward the end of her training. That's why the Waif abandoned staffs to switch to hand-to-hand fighting, with which Arya was less familiar. But that was good too. Each time, Arya was learning to absorb punishment, and bounce back, and gaining in martial skills. The only way a less experienced fighter could expect to reliably defeat a stronger and more experienced fighter would be on the ground of her choosing, so she lured the Waif into a trap. She gambled that the Waif would close and bolt the door to prevent Arya's escape, and in total darkness, she felt she had a chance.

Even if the Waif had trained blindfolded at some point, actually being blind for weeks or months, 24/7, and being attacked regularly, would have given Arya a sizeable advantage. And Needle's longer reach would have helped to offset the Waif's size and strength advantage. Although I had some other issues with that sequence, the value of her training in Bravos, and her ability to defeat the Waif on the terrain of her choosing, weren't among them.

As I said at the start, I don't know if anyone else will have any further interest now that the season is over, but if so, I may post some other random thoughts.

Regards,
Mike
Predictions for next season:
- Arya and Bran both make it back to Winterfell.
- Bran tells Jon of his true parents. This causes some possible issues within House Stark and their bannermen since he's a Targaryen.
- Jamie falls out with Cersei who is slowly going mad. Maybe decides to undermine her or kill her.
- Dany arrives in Westeros and assembles her armies with her local allies for the eventual battles there. She learns about the current politics and decides who else to align with beyond her current allies. Informs everyone that she is the rightful ruler.
- Littlefinger is pushed away from Winterfell and decides to try aligning with Dany (as a means to his own power and since she's looking for someone to marry).
- Realization in the many factions that they must unite against the Night's King (enemy of my enemy is my friend) which postpones actual war in Westeros.

Some of this is obvious but I also like the idea of keeping this thread active for a while longer. I truly enjoyed this season and the finale. End game is approaching.

Cheers,
Paul
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post #3273 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 10:53 AM
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Predictions for next season:
- Dany ... Informs everyone that she is the rightful ruler.
Cheers,
Paul
Interesting, her claim to the throne is stronger than Cersei's (well, now that Cersei actually has it maybe it's a different story, but still). This could be an interesting dynamic to the final seasons.
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post #3274 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 11:08 AM
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will there be a throne if the whitewalkers win?

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post #3275 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 12:05 PM
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will there be a throne if the whitewalkers win?

I saw an interesting interview with the actor who plays the King of the White Walkers, the Night King. He was posing the question to the interviewer: "What are the White Walkers really after? What's their end game?" And he really didn't know. The only explanation for their assault on the South that makes any sense to me is that they want to bring eternal Winter to Westeros, and exterminate all life on the planet.

I don't know if that explanation is correct or not, but if it is, there wouldn't be an Iron Throne, or any other meaningful works of mankind left after that war of extermination. There would only be White Walkers and the undead (the reanimated dead). So, that vision of an empty throne room, partly filled with snow, that Dany saw, would be the physical remnant of the Iron Throne, if the White Walkers won. But there wouldn't be anyone left to rule, or be ruled. And unless it amused the Night King to sit on the throne, and who knows what amuses a White Walker, the Iron Throne itself would be meaningless.
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post #3276 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 12:18 PM
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if the whitewalkers won, would make for an interesting GOT 2 with all new plot/characters...

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post #3277 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 07:19 PM
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Predictions for next season:
- Arya and Bran both make it back to Winterfell.
- Bran tells Jon of his true parents. This causes some possible issues within House Stark and their bannermen since he's a Targaryen.
- Jamie falls out with Cersei who is slowly going mad. Maybe decides to undermine her or kill her.
- Dany arrives in Westeros and assembles her armies with her local allies for the eventual battles there. She learns about the current politics and decides who else to align with beyond her current allies. Informs everyone that she is the rightful ruler.
- Littlefinger is pushed away from Winterfell and decides to try aligning with Dany (as a means to his own power and since she's looking for someone to marry).
- Realization in the many factions that they must unite against the Night's King (enemy of my enemy is my friend) which postpones actual war in Westeros.

Some of this is obvious but I also like the idea of keeping this thread active for a while longer. I truly enjoyed this season and the finale. End game is approaching.

Cheers,
Paul
Arya and Bran both make it back to Winterfell.

I don't think so. I think Arya meets up with the Brotherhood without Banners. The Hound teaches her this time about getting past her hatred which would be an interesting parallel to how he taught her to kill back in Seasons 3 and 4. The Red Priestess meets up with them too. Probably Arya tries to kill her. I'm not sure Bran is going anywhere other than Castle Black. I predict that Gendry rejoins them too. He's done paddling in circles.

- Bran tells Jon of his true parents. This causes some possible issues within House Stark and their bannermen since he's a Targaryen.

Don't know how this is going to happen. I'm thinking Bran might work with Sam to get this information out.

- Jamie falls out with Cersei who is slowly going mad. Maybe decides to undermine her or kill her.

Jamie has basically given up on Cersei in the books but not in the show. I don't see Jamie killing Cersei. I think his reaction would be to abandon her. I think if Cersei gets it in Season 7 it is going to be by Tyrion if the book prophecy is used in the show. Tyrion is the only one (besides Arya) who would want to kill Cersei in that manner.

- Dany arrives in Westeros and assembles her armies with her local allies for the eventual battles there. She learns about the current politics and decides who else to align with beyond her current allies. Informs everyone that she is the rightful ruler.

Don't know where Dany is planning to land first. They might go to the Iron Islands first or to Storm's End. At this point, unless Euron puts together a formidable force and I don't see how he could (numbers of ships don't matter if you don't have enough fighters and the Iron Islands hasn't been seen as any kind of significant force and they've been halved by Yara and Theon escaping). I don't know what other allies Cersei has. I think it's going to be some kind of siege and Cersei either threatening to or actually burning King's Landing.

- Littlefinger is pushed away from Winterfell and decides to try aligning with Dany (as a means to his own power and since she's looking for someone to marry).

Don't really know Littlefinger's play. I've guessed before he might be in league with the WWs. If I were him and that was possible, that's what I would do.

- Realization in the many factions that they must unite against the Night's King (enemy of my enemy is my friend) which postpones actual war in Westeros.

The White Walkers are interesting because they were human and apparently we've learned through Benjen that you don't lose your humanity just because someone sticks you in the heart with a piece of dragonglass. I wonder if there was some kind of pact between humans and the WWs thousands of years ago that has been broken. I do agree that there will be a marshaling of forces but don't think there will be any great war (maybe a few battles) prior to Season 8.
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post #3278 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 08:39 PM
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I think everyone's predictions are interesting. I actually enjoy being surprised, though, by the actual detail of the episodes, so I probably won't try too hard to predict the specific plot twists. About the only prediction that I have consistently made for myself is that with three dragons, there will be three dragon riders in the final battle with the White Walkers. They will be Dany, obviously, Bran due to his Warg abilities, and Jon, due to his half-Targaryen lineage. Of course, I could be mistaken about that, but the existence of three dragons, and three potential dragon riders, certainly is suggestive.

I seriously doubt that Littlefinger has made a deal with the White Walkers, not because he wouldn't have the hubris to try, but because I don't think that the Walkers have enough humanity left to allow for a point of contact. I think that they are a different case than Benjen. I don't think that it would be at all easy to contact them; much less to negotiate with them. They left Craster alone as long as he supplied them with male babies. But I suspect that there wasn't any real communication involved. Perhaps he simply left the babies out in the snow to die, the Walkers started taking them instead, and the accommodation was reached.

I see the White Walkers in much the way that I would see alien invaders from "The War of the Worlds" or "Independence Day". It will be a war of extermination with only one species left standing. I could certainly be wrong about that, too. As for whether mankind had some sort of pact with them, and something has now changed, I would instead suggest that they have been gathering their strength and marshaling their forces (adding White Walkers). The 700' high wall was built several thousand years before, specifically for the Walkers. And the fact that the Three Eyed Raven had been waiting for Bran for a thousand years suggests that the war between the Walkers and mankind has been building to a final confrontation for a very long time.
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post #3279 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 08:45 PM
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how many dragons were shown in that last/2nd to last episode? was it 5? or just 3? I forget...but I would think the dragons could reproduce somehow...

the show is still able to play out in so many ways, will be interesting to see how it goes...hopefully it will be enjoyable for most.

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post #3280 of 3298 Old 07-10-2016, 09:26 PM
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I seriously doubt that Littlefinger has made a deal with the White Walkers, not because he wouldn't have the hubris to try, but because I don't think that the Walkers have enough humanity left to allow for a point of contact. I think that they are a different case than Benjen. I don't think that it would be at all easy to contact them; much less to negotiate with them. They left Craster alone as long as he supplied them with male babies. But I suspect that there wasn't any real communication involved. Perhaps he simply left the babies out in the snow to die, the Walkers started taking them instead, and the accommodation was reached.

I see the White Walkers in much the way that I would see alien invaders from "The War of the Worlds" or "Independence Day". It will be a war of extermination with only one species left standing. I could certainly be wrong about that, too. As for whether mankind had some sort of pact with them, and something has now changed, I would instead suggest that they have been gathering their strength and marshaling their forces (adding White Walkers). The 700' high wall was built several thousand years before, specifically for the Walkers. And the fact that the Three Eyed Raven had been waiting for Bran for a thousand years suggests that the war between the Walkers and mankind has been building to a final confrontation for a very long time.
Its just an "out there" theory. Its based upon the idea that the White Walkers are perhaps more than they seem. I don't really get any plan to take over the world. If they just like snow and being left alone, all they need to do is stay where they are.

They did make some sort of deal with Craster so there is some kind of honor or ability to live with others. I'm thinking that humans maybe agreed, thousands of years ago, to leave the forest and the area north of the Wall alone. Humans (wildings) reproduced and essentially broke that deal because the deal was long before they could record it and it had been either forgotten or put off as some kind of myth.

I just think it would be really interesting if the White Walkers weren't like some kind of alien just intent upon killing all humans. And it would be an interesting play by Littlefinger if he figured it out.

I am a bit disappointed by this last season even though eps 9 and 10 made for good tv, it sort of belittled the idea behind the stories about how war wasn't good and hurt all the people all the way down the line. The showrunners have sort of forgotten about that. In the Battle of the Bastards, we saw bodies from both sides piled up. After the battle, nothing. No one grieving or even cleaning up all the bodies. What about all the mothers, wives and children of the people killed? What about the houses: Bolton, Umbers and Karstarks? Are they wiped out? These last shows were big on spectacle but bad on consequences which the books really drive home.

All the stories about the Riverlands and the common folk getting hit from all sides just disappear for the most part.

I hope they get back to the futility of this Game of Thrones and how it is like Tyrion described it, a wheel that keeps turning and crushing most people under it.

I've also wondered about the lack of scientific development which I believe is due to magic.

Now if the show is going to have Dany be a conqueror but change the system for everyone essentially creating free states, that would interesting. But I don't know how the White Walkers fit in that scenario. They almost seem like a threat specifically created to guaranty that everyone works together at the end but that would be so cliche.

However, the Battle of the Bastards played out just like most of it thought it would. Boltons defeating Jon Snow's army until the Knights of the Vale came in to finish off the Bolton force. However, it played out just like Littlefinger told Cersei he would play it.

So I hope that the show will go off the rails a bit and not be obvious. So the theory is more my hope than real expectation.

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post #3281 of 3298 Old 07-11-2016, 04:20 AM
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how many dragons were shown in that last/2nd to last episode? was it 5? or just 3? I forget...but I would think the dragons could reproduce somehow...

the show is still able to play out in so many ways, will be interesting to see how it goes...hopefully it will be enjoyable for most.
It was just 3.
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The whitewalkers were created by the children of the forest to fight and destroy men thousands of years ago, because men were destroying them (the cotf) and cutting down the forests and the weirwood trees, which is how they communicated over long distances (I gather). The children used their magic to create the WWs. The children also stopped Benjen's transformation, so he's more like half WW and half human or something, but even he admitted he doesn't know how long the magic will last or what will happen to him. My guess is, since they (WW) were created to destroy men, that's their basic programming, and that's what they're after. But who knows if they've grown into something more, like an AI might. The NK seems to be able think and reason. But once man is gone, their purpose is fulfilled. I wonder if they would try crossing the seas to destroy the rest of mankind elsewhere, or if their battle is just in Westeros.

Littlefinger will do anything to accomplish his objective, so nothing would surprise me when it comes to him.

hmmm... I have to wonder what Euron will do, since Yara and Theon beat him to Dany and ruined his plans. He'll probably try to destroy her forces so he can rape her and cut out her tongue and get control of her dragons, and set himself upon the Iron Throne. I seriously doubt he'll succeed, but he's a wild card in more ways than one, and I have a feeling he's worse than Ramsey was. He doesn't really care about Dany, he just wants the dragons and their power over men.

I was thinking (hoping) Tyrion might be one of the dragon riders, since he was able to get close enough to set them free. And they seemed to like him, so maybe he'll be the third rider. That would leave either Jon or Bran as the second. I doubt it would be Bran because as the 3ER he has a more complex purpose. In any case, if my guess is correct, that would unite 3 of the houses (Targaryen, Stark and Lannister).
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post #3283 of 3298 Old 07-11-2016, 11:52 PM
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The whitewalkers were created by the children of the forest to fight and destroy men thousands of years ago, because men were destroying them (the cotf) and cutting down the forests and the weirwood trees, which is how they communicated over long distances (I gather). The children used their magic to create the WWs. The children also stopped Benjen's transformation, so he's more like half WW and half human or something, but even he admitted he doesn't know how long the magic will last or what will happen to him. My guess is, since they (WW) were created to destroy men, that's their basic programming, and that's what they're after. But who knows if they've grown into something more, like an AI might. The NK seems to be able think and reason. But once man is gone, their purpose is fulfilled. I wonder if they would try crossing the seas to destroy the rest of mankind elsewhere, or if their battle is just in Westeros.

Littlefinger will do anything to accomplish his objective, so nothing would surprise me when it comes to him.

hmmm... I have to wonder what Euron will do, since Yara and Theon beat him to Dany and ruined his plans. He'll probably try to destroy her forces so he can rape her and cut out her tongue and get control of her dragons, and set himself upon the Iron Throne. I seriously doubt he'll succeed, but he's a wild card in more ways than one, and I have a feeling he's worse than Ramsey was. He doesn't really care about Dany, he just wants the dragons and their power over men.

I was thinking (hoping) Tyrion might be one of the dragon riders, since he was able to get close enough to set them free. And they seemed to like him, so maybe he'll be the third rider. That would leave either Jon or Bran as the second. I doubt it would be Bran because as the 3ER he has a more complex purpose. In any case, if my guess is correct, that would unite 3 of the houses (Targaryen, Stark and Lannister).

That's good insight on the White Walkers. Whether they are simply being true to their original programming to destroy men, or whether they morphed into something even the children didn't expect though, I don't think they would stop at King's Landing.

I am a little handicapped in not having read all the books, although I did read the first couple when they were first published. I can't remember much detail after all this time, but I was probably one of those who threw the book across the room at some point. So, Euron is a total enigma to me. I will give them a good read when all of this is over, assuming that GRRM ever actually writes Book 7.

I strongly suspect that there won't be a house Lannister (other than Tyrion) by the time that Dany gets through, even if the Tyrells and the Sand Snakes don't exact a full revenge. I do remember the show emphasizing that only Wargs or Targaryens could ride dragons, and the prediction by the Man in the Tree that Bran would fly seemed to align with the idea that he would be a dragon rider. Maybe just being the Three-Eyed Raven is what he meant, but I liked the idea that he would literally fly on the back of a dragon, the way he was able to ride a horse.

I have been having fun going back since Season 6 ended, watching Season 4, and now Season 5, again. Then I will re-watch Season 6. (But I'm not an addict or anything. ) Early in Season 5, Dany goes down into the Catacombs to check on the two imprisoned dragons, and they won't even let her approach. So, I have no idea what happened with Tyrion when they let him get close enough to set them free. Drogon seems to know when Dany really needs him, so maybe they can read intentions to some extent, and particularly where the bond is strong. I suspect that riding reinforces the bond. But, unless they play fast and loose with the rules they stated on the show, I don't think that Tyrion will be able to ride one of the dragons.
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post #3284 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 04:36 AM
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That's good insight on the White Walkers. Whether they are simply being true to their original programming to destroy men, or whether they morphed into something even the children didn't expect though, I don't think they would stop at King's Landing.

I am a little handicapped in not having read all the books, although I did read the first couple when they were first published. I can't remember much detail after all this time, but I was probably one of those who threw the book across the room at some point. So, Euron is a total enigma to me. I will give them a good read when all of this is over, assuming that GRRM ever actually writes Book 7.

I strongly suspect that there won't be a house Lannister (other than Tyrion) by the time that Dany gets through, even if the Tyrells and the Sand Snakes don't exact a full revenge. I do remember the show emphasizing that only Wargs or Targaryens could ride dragons, and the prediction by the Man in the Tree that Bran would fly seemed to align with the idea that he would be a dragon rider. Maybe just being the Three-Eyed Raven is what he meant, but I liked the idea that he would literally fly on the back of a dragon, the way he was able to ride a horse.

I have been having fun going back since Season 6 ended, watching Season 4, and now Season 5, again. Then I will re-watch Season 6. (But I'm not an addict or anything. ) Early in Season 5, Dany goes down into the Catacombs to check on the two imprisoned dragons, and they won't even let her approach. So, I have no idea what happened with Tyrion when they let him get close enough to set them free. Drogon seems to know when Dany really needs him, so maybe they can read intentions to some extent, and particularly where the bond is strong. I suspect that riding reinforces the bond. But, unless they play fast and loose with the rules they stated on the show, I don't think that Tyrion will be able to ride one of the dragons.
Well, there is always the theory that Tyrion is actually a Targaryen. I'm not sure how it works but, according to the theory, he is the son of The Mad King. And Tywin knew, but was too proud to ever admit it.
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post #3285 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 04:46 AM
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Well, there is always the theory that Tyrion is actually a Targaryen. I'm not sure how it works but, according to the theory, he is the son of The Mad King. And Tywin knew, but was too proud to ever admit it.
I've signed onto that one. There is the story about a break between Tywin and the Targaryens which (I think) came from one of them becoming his wife's lover. Which produced Tyrion and Tywin's hatred of him.

That's (again, I think) why Tyrion was able to approach the dragons. Otherwise, he's a little smoking appetizer. So I think he'll ride the third.

Bran can ride any dragon when he chooses just by taking them over.

Anyways, it's how I get Tyrion on a dragon... which would be awesome.
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post #3286 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 06:59 AM
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Well, there is always the theory that Tyrion is actually a Targaryen. I'm not sure how it works but, according to the theory, he is the son of The Mad King. And Tywin knew, but was too proud to ever admit it.
I had never heard that theory. Assuming that there is something to it, though, wouldn't the showrunners have at least hinted at it the way they have with Jon Snow's lineage? Does anyone else know if there is a real suggestion of this in the books (such as Tywin's wife being with the Mad King at King's Landing at about the right time), or is it just someone's imaginative speculation?

FWIW, the only reason that I could ever see for Tywin allowing Tyrion to live (knowing how he felt about dwarfism, his pride in family, and the death of his wife giving birth to him) was that Tyrion actually was his son. Loathe him as he might, he was family, and that meant something to Tywin, however conflicted he felt about Tyrion. If Tywin had believed (or known) that Tyrion was not even his son, I can't believe he would have allowed him to live, much less to raise him as his own son. There just wasn't that much compassion or charity in his makeup.

And if Tywin had seriously (instead of casually) wanted him dead earlier, I can't imagine what would have stopped him from getting it done. Certainly, nothing else seemed to stop him from acting decisively and ruthlessly when he wanted to.

I'm not saying that the theory can't be true, or that it wouldn't be an interesting plot twist, but if it does turn out to be true, it will be hard to understand how Tywin could have known about it, or perhaps even strongly suspected. I am also not sure how that explains why Tyrion was able to approach the chained dragons when even their mother couldn't. Their ability to somehow sense intention is the only thing that makes sense to me so far, until someone explains it better. To be fair, though, sometimes writers of books or screenplays just have implausible events occur without explanation, so we may never know the answer to that one.
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post #3287 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 12:37 PM
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I had never heard that theory. Assuming that there is something to it, though, wouldn't the showrunners have at least hinted at it the way they have with Jon Snow's lineage? Does anyone else know if there is a real suggestion of this in the books (such as Tywin's wife being with the Mad King at King's Landing at about the right time), or is it just someone's imaginative speculation?

FWIW, the only reason that I could ever see for Tywin allowing Tyrion to live (knowing how he felt about dwarfism, his pride in family, and the death of his wife giving birth to him) was that Tyrion actually was his son. Loathe him as he might, he was family, and that meant something to Tywin, however conflicted he felt about Tyrion. If Tywin had believed (or known) that Tyrion was not even his son, I can't believe he would have allowed him to live, much less to raise him as his own son. There just wasn't that much compassion or charity in his makeup.

And if Tywin had seriously (instead of casually) wanted him dead earlier, I can't imagine what would have stopped him from getting it done. Certainly, nothing else seemed to stop him from acting decisively and ruthlessly when he wanted to.

I'm not saying that the theory can't be true, or that it wouldn't be an interesting plot twist, but if it does turn out to be true, it will be hard to understand how Tywin could have known about it, or perhaps even strongly suspected. I am also not sure how that explains why Tyrion was able to approach the chained dragons when even their mother couldn't. Their ability to somehow sense intention is the only thing that makes sense to me so far, until someone explains it better. To be fair, though, sometimes writers of books or screenplays just have implausible events occur without explanation, so we may never know the answer to that one.
If Jon Snow and Tyrion are Targaryen then why do they not have blonde hair? I thought all Targaryens are blonde.
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post #3288 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 12:53 PM
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If Jon Snow and Tyrion are Targaryen then why do they not have blonde hair? I thought all Targaryens are blonde.

I remember someone asking a similar question several pages back. In our world, genetic traits such as hair color and eye color are characterized as either dominant or recessive. And apparently GRRM's world obeys similar rules. Remember that Ned Stark discovers that King Robert's bastards all have dark hair and eyes (dark is dominant) and that his three children by Cersei don't. Therefore they aren't Robert's. That knowledge helps get both Robert and Ned killed.

I believe that the Targaryens preserved their pure bloodlines and white-blond hair, through inter-marriage within their family, typically between brother and sister.
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If Jon Snow and Tyrion are Targaryen then why do they not have blonde hair? I thought all Targaryens are blonde.
These "theories" are nothing new .. speculation on this and that has been and will continue to be, here's just one at the link .. I've read every shred that GRRM has written as it relates to GOT, there are substantial amounts of story outside the main books .. and I don't buy into most of the fan speculation ..


http://winteriscoming.net/2016/05/06...y-a-targaryen/

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post #3290 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 04:14 PM
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The white walkers are just trying to provide the south with long term food preservation. It's a big misunderstanding.

The tree people created them to kill humans, so I don't think there is any ulterior motives. They are a human killing machine, no more.
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post #3291 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 04:24 PM
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I had never heard that theory. Assuming that there is something to it, though, wouldn't the showrunners have at least hinted at it the way they have with Jon Snow's lineage? Does anyone else know if there is a real suggestion of this in the books (such as Tywin's wife being with the Mad King at King's Landing at about the right time), or is it just someone's imaginative speculation?

FWIW, the only reason that I could ever see for Tywin allowing Tyrion to live (knowing how he felt about dwarfism, his pride in family, and the death of his wife giving birth to him) was that Tyrion actually was his son. Loathe him as he might, he was family, and that meant something to Tywin, however conflicted he felt about Tyrion. If Tywin had believed (or known) that Tyrion was not even his son, I can't believe he would have allowed him to live, much less to raise him as his own son. There just wasn't that much compassion or charity in his makeup.

And if Tywin had seriously (instead of casually) wanted him dead earlier, I can't imagine what would have stopped him from getting it done. Certainly, nothing else seemed to stop him from acting decisively and ruthlessly when he wanted to.

I'm not saying that the theory can't be true, or that it wouldn't be an interesting plot twist, but if it does turn out to be true, it will be hard to understand how Tywin could have known about it, or perhaps even strongly suspected. I am also not sure how that explains why Tyrion was able to approach the chained dragons when even their mother couldn't. Their ability to somehow sense intention is the only thing that makes sense to me so far, until someone explains it better. To be fair, though, sometimes writers of books or screenplays just have implausible events occur without explanation, so we may never know the answer to that one.
I thought Tyrion sufficiently explained why they allowed him near within those scenes. They are extremely smart. Dany imprisoned them, naturally they would be pissed at her.
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post #3292 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 04:36 PM
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I thought Tyrion sufficiently explained why they allowed him near within those scenes. They are extremely smart. Dany imprisoned them, naturally they would be pissed at her.
You certainly may be right, but I'm not sure that explanation quite does it for me. Sure they would have been pissed for awhile at Dany, and maybe they would have stayed pissed. But then they didn't act pissed at all when Tyrion visited them, and they didn't act pissed at Dany when they broke through the walls of the catacombs to help Dany and Drogon incinerate the Slaver's fleet. We can probably rationalize that one partly based on Drogon's presence.

In any event, I didn't see Tyrion's ability to free them as evidence that he might be half-Targaryen. I didn't intend to belabor the point, though. Sometimes writers just need to accomplish something in the plot without having to spend too much time worrying about plausible explanations. They know that fans will supply our own.
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I remember someone asking a similar question several pages back. In our world, genetic traits such as hair color and eye color are characterized as either dominant or recessive. And apparently GRRM's world obeys similar rules. Remember that Ned Stark discovers that King Robert's bastards all have dark hair and eyes (dark is dominant) and that his three children by Cersei don't. Therefore they aren't Robert's. That knowledge helps get both Robert and Ned killed.

I believe that the Targaryens preserved their pure bloodlines and white-blond hair, through inter-marriage within their family, typically between brother and sister.
Yes. And I answered that question pages ago. Genetics and dominant traits. Jon and Tyrion would only be 1/2 Targaryen.

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post #3294 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 05:27 PM
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Here's a nice video discussion about White Walkers done a while ago:

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"Nowadays, you can just click a button and buy a book, meet your spouse or ruin someone's life. Sometimes those last two are the same thing." John Oliver.
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post #3295 of 3298 Old 07-12-2016, 08:42 PM
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Here's a nice video discussion about White Walkers done a while ago:

https://youtu.be/Ih_ZAGCfMY0

Really good stuff, and all new to me! Thanks for posting it.
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post #3296 of 3298 Old 07-13-2016, 09:33 AM
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only 2 remaining seasons to close the shows, with so plots and characters...
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post #3297 of 3298 Old 07-13-2016, 10:19 AM
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only 2 remaining seasons to close the shows, with so plots and characters...
Less than 1.5 seasons based on episode count ..

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post #3298 of 3298 Old 07-13-2016, 12:04 PM
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Isn't it funny that we are all already mourning the end? I have been sorry before to see shows end, but this is the only one where I can say that I am a flat-out junkie.
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