'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD *** WARNING - Spoilers allowed *** - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 10:34 AM
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I think leaving it out hurts his motivation, or hurts the masses (TV watchers)getting behind his motivation. Gang raping your wife, is pretty good motivation.

Convincing you your wife is a whore, gang raping her, then whatever happened after, I can't remember. Then having your new actual whore girlfriend betray you in court, then sleeping with your most hated family member.

I don't feel as emotional about that kill because he called shae a whore 2 times and because daddy didn't like him. Add the 1st wife reason in and everyone is rooting for it.



I did love the cooter kick in the fight scene. The scream seemed justifiable for such an act, it made me laugh. I have mixed feelings about that change from the book. In the books no one knows Arya is still alive, now 2 people know it. Will that change anything down the line?
In another forum I am discussing this, others are pointing out that non-book readers are sort of lost on the motivation. Perhaps its because I already knew this but felt it was a bit gimmicky that I am okay with it not being in the show whereas others need this additional information to understand why Tyrion would seek out and then kill his father.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #2162 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 10:44 AM
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We know why he should die. The non book readers don't get the same satisfaction.

And according to oink's link, there's even more we don't know yet.

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post #2163 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Yrd View Post
We know why he should die. The non book readers don't get the same satisfaction.

And according to oink's link, there's even more we don't know yet.
I haven't been looking at the other thread so I'm not sure what you are referring to with Oink's link.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #2164 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 11:15 AM
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His post in this thread, just above yours.

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post #2165 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Yrd View Post
His post in this thread, just above yours.
Didn't see it before. I think GRRM is talking about Varys' agenda.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #2166 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Yrd View Post
I think leaving it out hurts his motivation, or hurts the masses (TV watchers)getting behind his motivation. Gang raping your wife, is pretty good motivation.

Convincing you your wife is a whore, gang raping her, then whatever happened after, I can't remember. Then having your new actual whore girlfriend betray you in court, then sleeping with your most hated family member.

I don't feel as emotional about that kill because he called shae a whore 2 times and because daddy didn't like him. Add the 1st wife reason in and everyone is rooting for it.



I did love the cooter kick in the fight scene. The scream seemed justifiable for such an act, it made me laugh. I have mixed feelings about that change from the book. In the books no one knows Arya is still alive, now 2 people know it. Will that change anything down the line?
In another forum I am discussing this, others are pointing out that non-book readers are sort of lost on the motivation. Perhaps its because I already knew this but felt it was a bit gimmicky that I am okay with it not being in the show whereas others need this additional information to understand why Tyrion would seek out and then kill his father.
Ooooh.... I got this one...

Motivation for Tyrion killing Tywin.

  1. Sharing the first two letters in the name and still wanting Tyrion dead.
  2. Being told that since he was born, he wanted Tyrion dead.
  3. Tyrion saves Joffrey's, Cerseis's behind after masterminding Blackwater and Tywin still wants him dead. Also dumps him from the Hand to the Foot.
  4. Tyrion takes up being master of coin and succeeds in funding the wedding, etc. Thanks? - he is charged with a murder he had nothing to do with and Tywin wants him dead.
  5. During the trial, Tywin brings out Shae, who Tyrion reluctantly loved, as the master witness against Tyrion. He didn't have to do so, since the verdict was cooked by Tywin and Cersei, but both Cersei and Tywin want Tyrion not just dead but humiliated.
  6. Tyrion seemingly avoids death during Oberyn's fight but loses when Oberyn loses face. Tywin could still send Tyrion to the wall (who could countenance him?) but Tywin doesn't because he wants Tyrion dead.
  7. Tyrion walks into the Hand's chambers, finds Shae who groggily says... "Tywin? is that you my lion?". So... Tyrion loses it and goes out of the Hand's chambers to the Hand's chamberpot.
  8. Tyrion is a lot like Tywin, so when he picks up the crossbow, he's going to use it. Tywin tries to play him, but Tyrion, being the brightest of the entire Lannister crew hears him say basically... "Let me coax you into letting me live, get you in my chambers where I can find a good way to make you dead".
  9. Tyrion kills him for all the above.


I see plenty of motivation without the ex wife story (which also bowled me over in the books).
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post #2167 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 11:56 AM
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And yet, in the end, it was similar to Jules' reasoning in Pulp Fiction: "Say whore again. I dare you. I double dare you."

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #2168 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 12:10 PM
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The more I think about it, the more I think they blew it. Whatever Tyrion had done in the past, he was never one to kill someone in cold blood. Now all of a sudden he decides to kill Tywin in cold blood? It played FAR better in the book.

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post #2169 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 12:12 PM
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Ever wonder why Tyrion only sleep with whores after Tasha? Never made any attempt to find a "goodwife". Other then the **** pinching (which did bring a tear to his eye) The Tasha incident shaped Tyrion's life.
Well his love lifeanywho.
GRRM put more into with Oinks link.

Could have had the same impact at the red wedding is all im saying. Still I like Jamie and him are still friends.

See we can discuss the book in greater detail here!
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post #2170 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
The more I think about it, the more I think they blew it. Whatever Tyrion had done in the past, he was never one to kill someone in cold blood. Now all of a sudden he decides to kill Tyrion in cold blood. It played FAR better in the book.
Correct! I guess you said it better then I. His older brother was a Kingslayer, Now Tyrion is a Kinslayer. Hate your old man or not, if you believe Tywin who said he was not going to die due to being a Lannister is just seemed out of place.
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post #2171 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 12:38 PM
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Correct! I guess you said it better then I. His older brother was a Kingslayer, Now Tyrion is a Kinslayer. Hate your old man or not, if you believe Tywin who said he was not going to die due to being a Lannister is just seemed out of place.
Why would Tyrion believe his father? Why?
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post #2172 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 12:39 PM
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Pretty well done with all they left to cover in just over an hour. I thought they summed it up well here with differences from the books.

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes...lers/#Analysis
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post #2173 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 01:39 PM
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You guys are not getting me. Tyrion has a ton of reasons to be pissed off and knock off his pa on the privy. Yes that is a reason that would make him angry. It just seemed like such a comic book villain thing on top of everything else. If it isn't part of the tv show, that's fine with me.
I get where you are coming from exactly .. if we put aside the books and look only at the show, Tyrion had plenty of motivation and backstory that built up the anger and resentment ..

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post #2174 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 01:56 PM
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Still seeing some pretty solid future predictions you know where ..

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post #2175 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 06:20 PM
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I get where you are coming from exactly .. if we put aside the books and look only at the show, Tyrion had plenty of motivation and backstory that built up the anger and resentment ..
I think it plays very well. Yes, Shae and Tyrion are quite different on TV, but the TV writing doesn't veer too far IMO. I respect what must happen in compression mode for TV and it's pretty darn good, given the material vs time constraints.

i.e. it's still entertaining...right?

Book readers get Alternate cut...Works if it's good.
New to the story.....Works cause it's good.

Problema?

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post #2176 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 06:55 PM
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Still seeing some pretty solid future predictions you know where ..

Oh, come on. they're just good guesses..... OK "educated guesses"
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post #2177 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 07:49 PM
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Oh, come on. they're just good guesses..... OK "educated guesses"
How do you get Jon Snow having a Targaryan father without being a reader? I don't remember there being anything about Rhaegar and Lyanna in the show. Hell, they don't even mention Ned and the Sword of the Morning's sister Asarya. They did mention Wylla as his mother early in the first season, AFAIK.

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post #2178 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 08:18 PM
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I think it was the same person that mentioned Targaryen did explain earlier in the thread how he came up with that. I don't think he's a reader, just very observant.


Here is that post:


My wild prediction: Jon is actually the son of Ned's sister (not Ned), the seed of the rape of Ned's sister by Rhaegar. Ned hid him in response to the "promise" that Ned made to his dying sister and because he knew Robert would have killed the baby. Nutty and likely wrong, but possible.

This explanation resolves the inherent conflict with Ned being such an honorable guy but allegedly sleeping around on his then new (and pregnant) wife, explains the mysterious "promise," and explains how Ned's sister died (childbirth). It would also make Jon and Danny relatives (and both Targaryians).





I can't recall if it was or was not revealed in the show this way, I believe it was.

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post #2179 of 2236 Old 06-16-2014, 08:41 PM
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It hasn't really been said in the show or the books but it is one of the prevailing theories if you read various forums for people who have read the books. The fact is that there hasn't been enough information given in the show for someone to even reasonably come to that conclusion. The person who wrote that is a book reader or my name is Jon Snow.

Some reading on the theory for those who are so inclined: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...84301-rlj-v46/
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post #2180 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rustycruiser View Post
How do you get Jon Snow having a Targaryan father without being a reader? I don't remember there being anything about Rhaegar and Lyanna in the show. Hell, they don't even mention Ned and the Sword of the Morning's sister Asarya. They did mention Wylla as his mother early in the first season, AFAIK.
I think John Dhein was being ironic.

I agree with him, I'm sure the guy posting is not a reader, just gets 98% of the future plot right, including Jon Snow's parentage, which was not even hinted at by the show.

I'm just not sure what he will do when the show catches up with the books. Like a 90's baseball player when they cracked down on steroids.
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post #2181 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 07:57 AM
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David Benioff and D.B. Weiss met with GRRM in order to secure the rights to produce GOT, the question GRRM posed to them was : "Who is Jon Snows mother .. ??" .. They answered correctly and decisively and landed the rights .. the info is in the books, make no mistake ..

I can tell you who the mother as well as the father is .. from book material .. the problem with this is you must really have read all peripheral GOT material contained in side projects as well as the five books and pieced it together from all known info ..

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post #2182 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 08:36 AM
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David Benioff and D.B. Weiss met with GRRM in order to secure the rights to produce GOT, the question GRRM posed to them was : "Who is Jon Snows mother .. ??" .. They answered correctly and decisively and landed the rights .. the info is in the books, make no mistake ..

I can tell you who the mother as well as the father is .. from book material .. the problem with this is you must really have read all peripheral GOT material contained in side projects as well as the five books and pieced it together from all known info ..
No, you can't say either with certainty. The identity of Jon Snow's mother is claimed to be Ashara Dayne, by Edric Dayne who claims he was "Jon's milk brother" in a conversation with Arya. That is the most direct evidence that appears in the book. Ned has claimed to be the father and only reading between the lines would lead someone to think otherwise. Those alternate theories are certainly possible (as is anything) but it is only an inference at this point drawn from hints and prophecies in the books. There is a reason that there are pages upon pages of speculation about the identity of Jon's parents (hint: its not because anyone aside from GRRM actually knows). Either way, the person who made that comment in the other thread had to have pulled it out of left field or used book material and I lean towards the latter.
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post #2183 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 08:59 AM
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No, you can't say either with certainty. The identity of Jon Snow's mother is claimed to be Ashara Dayne, by Edric Dayne who claims he was "Jon's milk brother" in a conversation with Arya. That is the most direct evidence that appears in the book. Ned has claimed to be the father and only reading between the lines would lead someone to think otherwise. Those alternate theories are certainly possible (as is anything) but it is only an inference at this point drawn from hints and prophecies in the books. There is a reason that there are pages upon pages of speculation about the identity of Jon's parents (hint: its not because anyone aside from GRRM actually knows). Either way, the person who made that comment in the other thread had to have pulled it out of left field or used book material and I lean towards the latter.
If Benioff and Weiss were decisively able to mine the info out of the books and peripheral material, is it a stretch that someone else could not do the same .. ?? I'm not going to toot my own horn here, but my copies of the written material are dog-eared from re-readings / cross referencing the show to the books / and filled with multi color highlighter and side bar notes and post it's .. like I said earlier, GRRM has published other GOT material outside of the main Fire and Ice books .. and while I agree that no info exists that provides absolute concrete "It's her / It's him" there is enough info to be within that 90% + positive side ..


But of course, no one can know for absolute certainty until GRRM does an actual reveal .. other than Benioff and Weiss, GRRM's wife and probably a few select others such as his editor ..

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post #2184 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 09:12 AM
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From his posts, I believe his information only comes from the show. This individual has made incorrect predictions.

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post #2185 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 09:15 AM
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If Benioff and Weiss were decisively able to mine the info out of the books and peripheral material, is it a stretch that someone else could not do the same .. ??
GRRM is a producer and writer for the show. Somehow I don't think B&W are having to do much speculation at all.
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post #2186 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 09:55 AM
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No, you can't say either with certainty. The identity of Jon Snow's mother is claimed to be Ashara Dayne, by Edric Dayne who claims he was "Jon's milk brother" in a conversation with Arya.
Milk brother just means they shared a wet nurse. It has nothing to do with who the biological mother is. Edric might believe it's Ashara, but that has no more weight than anyone else's beliefs, given that he was an infant at the time.
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post #2187 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 10:04 AM
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Milk brother just means they shared a wet nurse. It has nothing to do with who the biological mother is. Edric might believe it's Ashara, but that has no more weight than anyone else's beliefs, given that he was an infant at the time.
As I said, it's pretty clear that no one can say with certainty.
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post #2188 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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GRRM is a producer and writer for the show. Somehow I don't think B&W are having to do much speculation at all.
Post 2181 of mine, which you quoted I had assumed you had read ..


David Benioff and D.B. Weiss met with GRRM in order to secure the rights to produce GOT, the question GRRM posed to them was : "Who is Jon Snows mother .. ??" .. They answered correctly and decisively and landed the rights .. the info is in the books, make no mistake ..

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post #2189 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 10:50 AM
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Post 2181 of mine, which you quoted I had assumed you had read ..


David Benioff and D.B. Weiss met with GRRM in order to secure the rights to produce GOT, the question GRRM posed to them was : "Who is Jon Snows mother .. ??" .. They answered correctly and decisively and landed the rights .. the info is in the books, make no mistake ..
How does that quote disprove what I've said? The answer to this question is not explicitly stated in the books. Are you trying to argue that point? The producers guessed. Perhaps an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless. I have a theory and, if GRRM asked me, I'd certainly offer it up as a guess. There are plenty of clues that cause me to suspect his lineage (probably R+L) but there is nothing explicitly written.

I maintain that it stretches plausibility for a supposed viewer to arrive at the conclusion that Jon has Targaryen lineage without having read the books or other spoiler material, as the whole theory has been pieced together from information in the books. There hasn't been enough information presented yet in the show to even begin down that path.

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post #2190 of 2236 Old 06-17-2014, 11:04 AM
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How does that quote disprove what I've said? The answer to this question is not explicitly stated in the books. Are you trying to argue that point? The producers guessed. Perhaps an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless. I have a theory and, if GRRM asked me, I'd certainly offer it up as a guess. There are plenty of clues that cause me to suspect his lineage (probably R+L) but there is nothing explicitly written.

I maintain that it stretches plausibility for a supposed viewer to arrive at the conclusion that Jon has Targaryen lineage without having read the books or other spoiler material, as the whole theory has been pieced together from information in the books. There hasn't been enough information presented yet in the show to even begin down that path.
I'm not going to write a dissertation on the clues presented both in the books as well as the show .. I'm saving that for my book that dissects the Westeros universe ..


I will say, however, that there are clues in the show .. even early in the 4th season, Oberyn drops a clue .. and, like I said earlier,


and while I agree that no info exists that provides absolute concrete "It's her / It's him" there is enough info to be within that 90% + positive side ..

But of course, no one can know for absolute certainty until GRRM does an actual reveal .. other than Benioff and Weiss, GRRM's wife and probably a few select others such as his editor ..

Uncle Willie


Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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