'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD *** WARNING - Spoilers allowed *** - Page 84 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2491 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 01:35 AM
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I don't get it, why can't the King order those fanatics to be slaughtered.

They now outnumber the King's troops?

King's guard are badass. One of them could take out 20 sparrows easily.
The Sparrows are many because they represent the common folk. If Tommen unleashes his guards on them, it might cause an uprising. Look what happened when the beloved Mother rightfully executed the former slave. And Tommen does not have the wiles to have the dirty work done discreetly.
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post #2492 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 07:30 AM
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The Sparrows are many because they represent the common folk. If Tommen unleashes his guards on them, it might cause an uprising. Look what happened when the beloved Mother rightfully executed the former slave. And Tommen does not have the wiles to have the dirty work done discreetly.
No Tommen is still a kid, but Petyr Baelish, Littlefinger is back in town and he does. The High Sparrow is just what the Queen of Thrones said he is, a fraud. Wants power through fear. It seams, and true in the book all that was necessary is someone pointing the finger without culpability. Not even a hearing of any kind.
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post #2493 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 10:20 AM
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I believe the High Sparrow was and is the Septon that wandered from village to village barefoot .. he preached equality and aid to the poor .. the name High Sparrow was intended originally as an insult .. his original name, I believe, was never revealed ..


My take is, he actually is a Zealot that fully believes what he says, and is not on a power quest .. the ironic part is Cersei re-activating the Faith Militant and thus beginning her own problems ..


In the books, the sparrows break into The Baelor Sept and force the Devout to install the High Sparrow as the new High Septon .. and Cersei believes he is insane .. he also sold the valuables held in the Sept in order to feed the poor ..

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post #2494 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 10:27 AM
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But a few episodes ago, Cersei enabled the Sparrows by giving them some troops.

And then there was a scene a couple of episodes ago where the guards around Tommen said they would take out those sparrows when there was a confrontation but Tommen wouldn't give the order.

They did a poor job of exposition, if there are suppose to be so many sparrows all of a sudden in King's Landing that they can't be messed with. The way they clamped down on all these activities like whoring and buggery, why would they be popular with the people?

And even if they're many, if they're not armed or skilled in combat, the Kings Guard could massacre a few hundred of them easily. That might tend to cool the fanaticism.

Also, how ridiculous is it that Cersei goes visit Margery and the High Sparrow without any guards? On the one hand, they are wary of them but then she goes alone so she can be abducted by a bunch of nuns?
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post #2495 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
But a few episodes ago, Cersei enabled the Sparrows by giving them some troops.

And then there was a scene a couple of episodes ago where the guards around Tommen said they would take out those sparrows when there was a confrontation but Tommen wouldn't give the order.

They did a poor job of exposition, if there are suppose to be so many sparrows all of a sudden in King's Landing that they can't be messed with. The way they clamped down on all these activities like whoring and buggery, why would they be popular with the people?

And even if they're many, if they're not armed or skilled in combat, the Kings Guard could massacre a few hundred of them easily. That might tend to cool the fanaticism.

Also, how ridiculous is it that Cersei goes visit Margery and the High Sparrow without any guards? On the one hand, they are wary of them but then she goes alone so she can be abducted by a bunch of nuns?
Myself, I try to stay within book comparisons on this thread, as the show has drifted .. I believe no guards are allowed in the Sept and the doors are guarded by armed members of the Faith Militant .. it is obvious both on the show and in the books that the main population of Kings Landing does not care for the Lannisters .. keeping in mind that in the 7 Kingdoms, their religion is very, very important ..


The Faith Militant .. at least in the books .. is the military arm of the Faith of the Seven .. and has a faction known as The Warrior's Sons .. knights that have sworn themselves to the High Septon .. the other faction is The Poor Fellows, who are led by The Warrior Sons and are the bulk of the army .. it's a set-up much like other factions in Westeros .. when a House calls its Bannermen, you're getting mostly farmers and shopkeepers with a few leaders ..
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post #2496 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
But a few episodes ago, Cersei enabled the Sparrows by giving them some troops.

And then there was a scene a couple of episodes ago where the guards around Tommen said they would take out those sparrows when there was a confrontation but Tommen wouldn't give the order.

They did a poor job of exposition, if there are suppose to be so many sparrows all of a sudden in King's Landing that they can't be messed with. The way they clamped down on all these activities like whoring and buggery, why would they be popular with the people?

And even if they're many, if they're not armed or skilled in combat, the Kings Guard could massacre a few hundred of them easily. That might tend to cool the fanaticism.

Also, how ridiculous is it that Cersei goes visit Margery and the High Sparrow without any guards? On the one hand, they are wary of them but then she goes alone so she can be abducted by a bunch of nuns?
Sparrows are made up of mostly poor people. Brothels were attended by the rich.

My take from how the show represents it, Cersei felt that the high sparrow was her man, no need for guards. She gave him power, gave up the info on Marge and her brother. She thinks he's doing what she wants, but what people have told her is true, she's not as smart as she thinks she is.
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The sparrows remind me of David Carradine's "Caine" character in "Kung Fu".

Very religious, very holy, very peaceful, and will beat the $#!% out of you.
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post #2498 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 04:02 PM
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The show just keeps drifting further and further away from the books. How are they going to fix these things? The more nonessential changes they make, the more ripples are created that end up having a huge affect on other things. It appears they're actually rewriting the story, creating situations that never even happened and leaving out ones that did. So now, it would seem, they aren't just making changes in order to make the story more lean for the show, but to change the story entirely.

Sam and Gilly took Aemon and the "royal" baby and sailed for Oldtown a long time ago in the books, leaving Gilly's baby at Castle Black, so she never suffered attempted rape. (Why even have that scene in there? It isn't necessary.) She did suffer trauma from having to leave him behind though. There isn't a royal baby in the show. Sam was supposed to learn the ways of a Maester in Oldtown so he could counsel John after Aemon was gone when he would need all the knowledge he could get, because of the white walkers and winter coming. Are they just going to give him his collar now?

Barristan Selmy isn't slain by the Harpy. He's still alive in the books. Why do this? What purpose does it serve? Also, Danny doesn't kill her servant and she doesn't start feeding masters to her dragons. She takes two children from each family to serve her as wards instead. This one thing changes her entire character from one of tempered reason to one of revenge and harshness. She doesn't go to the fighting pits until her marriage and... well, you know what happens then.

Melisandre doesn't ask Stannis to burn Shireen, and as I recall she isn't with him during his march on Winterfell and neither is Davos. There are other storylines happening in other places that are converging that will possibly affect the outcome at Winterfell, none of which are even mentioned in the show.

Sansa never goes to Winterfell and never marries Ramsey. Isn't she still in the Eyrie? She also never meets Breinne, and Cersei doesn't know she's alive or where she is.

In the books Cersei slowly goes insane (my take anyway), which was apparent in her scheming, her need for total domination over everyone around her and when she burned down the Tower. She completely destabilized everything Tywin had worked so hard to gain (not that Tywin was any better, he was slime, but he at least knew how to wield power, however ruthlessly he used it). She completely lost it. Margerey isn't arrested for lying about Loras (who isn't even there but away somewhere on a mission), but she is arrested instead for sleeping with men in a plot Cersei devised which backfires on her, and that's how she also ends up arrested as well.

Jamie doesn't go to Dorne with Bronn and it isn't Elaria Sand who instigates the Sand Snakes, it's Arianne Martell, Doran's daughter, which, does he even have a daughter in the show? Also, they weren't intending to kill Myrcella in the books. They wanted to make her Queen of Westeros by usurping the throne from her brother, because she was the eldest. (Intention is really important and can change the whole feeling/perspective of something.) Why make this change? It isn't necessary to trim things for the show and it changes how we see the Sand Snakes.

I really wish they would stay a little more true to the events in the books, or at the very least, to the VISION and INHERENT QUALITY of the characters. Some of the changes they've made may be necessary in adapting a book for television, but these changes corrupt the story in ways that make it into something completely different, imo.
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post #2499 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 05:12 PM
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The show just keeps drifting further and further away from the books. How are they going to fix these things? The more nonessential changes they make, the more ripples are created that end up having a huge affect on other things. It appears they're actually rewriting the story, creating situations that never even happened and leaving out ones that did. So now, it would seem, they aren't just making changes in order to make the story more lean for the show, but to change the story entirely.

Sam and Gilly took Aemon and the "royal" baby and sailed for Oldtown a long time ago in the books, leaving Gilly's baby at Castle Black, so she never suffered attempted rape. (Why even have that scene in there? It isn't necessary.) She did suffer trauma from having to leave him behind though. There isn't a royal baby in the show. Sam was supposed to learn the ways of a Maester in Oldtown so he could counsel John after Aemon was gone when he would need all the knowledge he could get, because of the white walkers and winter coming. Are they just going to give him his collar now?

Barristan Selmy isn't slain by the Harpy. He's still alive in the books. Why do this? What purpose does it serve? Also, Danny doesn't kill her servant and she doesn't start feeding masters to her dragons. She takes two children from each family to serve her as wards instead. This one thing changes her entire character from one of tempered reason to one of revenge and harshness. She doesn't go to the fighting pits until her marriage and... well, you know what happens then.

Melisandre doesn't ask Stannis to burn Shireen, and as I recall she isn't with him during his march on Winterfell and neither is Davos. There are other storylines happening in other places that are converging that will possibly affect the outcome at Winterfell, none of which are even mentioned in the show.

Sansa never goes to Winterfell and never marries Ramsey. Isn't she still in the Eyrie? She also never meets Breinne, and Cersei doesn't know she's alive or where she is.

In the books Cersei slowly goes insane (my take anyway), which was apparent in her scheming, her need for total domination over everyone around her and when she burned down the Tower. She completely destabilized everything Tywin had worked so hard to gain (not that Tywin was any better, he was slime, but he at least knew how to wield power, however ruthlessly he used it). She completely lost it. Margerey isn't arrested for lying about Loras (who isn't even there but away somewhere on a mission), but she is arrested instead for sleeping with men in a plot Cersei devised which backfires on her, and that's how she also ends up arrested as well.

Jamie doesn't go to Dorne with Bronn and it isn't Elaria Sand who instigates the Sand Snakes, it's Arianne Martell, Doran's daughter, which, does he even have a daughter in the show? Also, they weren't intending to kill Myrcella in the books. They wanted to make her Queen of Westeros by usurping the throne from her brother, because she was the eldest. (Intention is really important and can change the whole feeling/perspective of something.) Why make this change? It isn't necessary to trim things for the show and it changes how we see the Sand Snakes.

I really wish they would stay a little more true to the events in the books, or at the very least, to the VISION and INHERENT QUALITY of the characters. Some of the changes they've made may be necessary in adapting a book for television, but these changes corrupt the story in ways that make it into something completely different, imo.
I completely get what you are saying. I read that George, David & D.B. (HBO) had conversations about how the story is suppose to end. I would imagine that George would have to sign off on everything that the writers are doing. But like you said, they are taking so many liberties w/ the books that its quite confusing. I also thought that fate of Davos was unknown in the books- didn't he go down to White Harbor to negotiate a deal & things fell through?
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post #2500 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 05:21 PM
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I believe the info they have about the future helps them clean these stories up. Think about why some of these things are missing or changed, it ultimately (most likely) doesn't affect the end.


Red lady is pretty haughty to expect stannis to sacrifice his daughter. Is that what has to be done? Can't she just use a little blood, and why can't the Kings blood be from an actual king - stannis?

Also how does she know how to do these things? Either in the show or the book it was said these things didn't start working until the dragons came back. It's not like they can practice ineffectual procedures. Hey that procedure didn't work again, guess we just keep doing it until it magically works one day.

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Since you don't know where things are going in the books, how can you say the changez don't make sense and aren't to make things lean? The Sam/Gilly thing makes perfect sense and saves an entire boat trip all over the place. Jon will probably return and tell Sam he needs to travel to Oldtown to train, and he'll jead out with Gilly at the end of the season. Season 6 will have Sam right where he is supposed to be.

I think they have done a great job (for the most part - Dorne is still problematic) of trimming a tremendous amount of fat...assumimg they haven't screwed up anything vital to the end game...which we have no way of knowing at this point.
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I believe the info they have about the future helps them clean these stories up. Think about why some of these things are missing or changed, it ultimately (most likely) doesn't affect the end.


Red lady is pretty haughty to expect stannis to sacrifice his daughter. Is that what has to be done? Can't she just use a little blood, and why can't the Kings blood be from an actual king - stannis?

Also how does she know how to do these things? Either in the show or the book it was said these things didn't start working until the dragons came back. It's not like they can practice ineffectual procedures. Hey that procedure didn't work again, guess we just keep doing it until it magically works one day.
I understand they have knowledge we don't, and I could be misinterpreting some of these things or making a judgement that isn't warranted. However, when they completely change the essence of a character (like Danny murdering first family members instead of taking children as wards/cupbearers/whatever, and also putting the servant boy to death) then it becomes problematic, at least in my own mind. I can forgive and overlook a lot of things in adaptations for the screen, but there are some things that should not be sacrificed or messed with in order to get where they're going.

With regard to Melisandre, I think she's completely wrong about Stannis being the true King. The sword he has doesn't generate any heat, which kind of gives it away (I think). Also, I personally think the comet was about Danny and not Stannis, but that's just my opinion and I admit I could be wrong about that.

(btw, how do I do multiple quotes from different posts, so I don't have to post more than one time?)
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post #2503 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 08:29 PM
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B&W nor GRRM called and asked my opinion ... the show is what it is, the books are what they are, it's two different things .. we've been having that dialog here for some time // you can't, nor should you, attempt to adapt 5000 plus pages into 70 hours of TV (actually less than 70 hours) .. personally, I'll take what I can get ..
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Since you don't know where things are going in the books, how can you say the changez don't make sense and aren't to make things lean? The Sam/Gilly thing makes perfect sense and saves an entire boat trip all over the place. Jon will probably return and tell Sam he needs to travel to Oldtown to train, and he'll jead out with Gilly at the end of the season. Season 6 will have Sam right where he is supposed to be.

I think they have done a great job (for the most part - Dorne is still problematic) of trimming a tremendous amount of fat...assumimg they haven't screwed up anything vital to the end game...which we have no way of knowing at this point.
It's true I'm not privy to all the information the producers have about future books, story lines and where the story is ultimately headed, but again, I don't think they should be changing the essence of a character because it changes who they are at a fundamental level. I'm really just bringing up things that bother me. I think this season in particular they've made some pretty dramatic diversions. I still love the show, and it's very well done in it's own right. I don't think it's a very good representation of the books, but that's just my opinion, and you are free to disagree with me.
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post #2505 of 2517 Unread Yesterday, 08:35 PM
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My opinion is that the 5th book was pretty lame. Nothing really happened in it until the last chapter. I had though that if they stuck to book 5 the show would probably die. Season 5 by episode 6 has already passed up book 5 in some story lines (book 6 which is being written still). I'm liking it!

If you haven't realized it "a Song of fire and ice" is really about the gods playing Game of Thrones and you are seeing them all come out now. All the "kings" are just the pawns.

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I don't get it, why can't the King order those fanatics to be slaughtered.

They now outnumber the King's troops?

King's guard are badass. One of them could take out 20 sparrows easily.
Sounds like a religious war if that happens.
The show wasn't going anywhere until Jorah and Tyrion introduce themselves to Dany and then Cersei gets caught in her own web.

Memo to Sansa. Your plan with Littlefinger: Worst. Plan. Ever.

Hats off to those of you predicting Melisandre wanted to sacrifice Shereen. Curious to see how that plays out.
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"...but these changes corrupt the story in ways that make it into something completely different"

My copies of the books are there on the shelf, and their text is the same as it always was. Nothing the TV show does can affect the books.

The TV show is something completely different. By necessity. the books are full of endless exposition, description, internal monologues, historical references. When it's necessary to explain something, you just explain it, no matter how many pages it takes or how many references to characters past, present, living, dead you have to reel in to do so.

On TV, every character is an actor you must hire, pay, costume, rehearse, and budget screen time for, at the expense of other actors you've already paid. Every description is a physical set that has to be built. Every internal monologue has to be rewritten into dialog with some other character, who has to be there for some reason other than to listen to our character talk (although we've seen that happen once or twice, and it always seems wierd).

Most importantly, it is necessary to condense, condense, condense. The audiobook of A Storm of Swords alone is 47 hours long!

There are always multiple versions of great stories, and the longer they exist the more often they are retold, and when they are adapted into new media, they change. Look at the Grimms' fairy tales. Look at Sherlock Holmes. Look at James Bond, for that matter. Look at any mainstream comic book character and the ways their stories are reshaped every time they're told. How much resemblance is there between the MCU Avengers and the original comics version?

The source material is not affected by any of this. We can go read the books any time, and not a word will be different. The TV version of ASOIAF is a retelling, not a revison. There is no guarantee that they will even end the same way. There is no guarantee that one version won't go on past the ending of the other, for that matter.

As a book reader, I see this as value added. It takes nothing away from the books I enjoyed, and will probably enjoy again. Plus it adds this whole other experience, including alternate story elements, alternate character fates, and possible even alternate outcomes. Its a win for everyone.
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Wow! That might have just been the best 59 minutes of television that I have ever seen.

there were at least 2-3 minutes of perfect TV.

*drool*

Quit failing to flip the switch
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My opinion is that the 5th book was pretty lame. Nothing really happened in it until the last chapter. I had though that if they stuck to book 5 the show would probably die. Season 5 by episode 6 has already passed up book 5 in some story lines (book 6 which is being written still). I'm liking it!

If you haven't realized it "a Song of fire and ice" is really about the gods playing Game of Thrones and you are seeing them all come out now. All the "kings" are just the pawns.
I thought it was the 4th book that was lame. (It was the fourth book that went into all that endless stuff about the Iron Islands, right? If it was the 5th then I agree with you. I was never so bored in my life reading fantasy. I hated that part of the story and some of the new characters he added into the story there, Euron, Victorian, etc.)
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I've said in the past that I had hoped Stannis march to Winterfell would get some air time, and I was glad to see it did on Sunday .. I rewatched last night and I have to say, it's a great example of what B&W do ..


In the book, Stannis march was long .. getting progressively worse and worse as time went by and the snow kept coming .. yet, in this last episode, in a very brief time, the essence of the march was captured .. by just cutting to the chase .. Stannis is getting desperate, things are falling apart and Melisandre suggests Shireen as a sacrifice .. that's it .. yet, if we look at that same build up in the book, I can't even remember how many pages and pages were devoted to the march ..


So, although I'd like to have it all, I'll take what I can get and kudos to B&W for taking a bloated, meandering and over written manuscript and taking it down to the core .. yet still making it so non-readers become fans ..
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For the rest of the season ep8 has a runtime about 60mins / ep9 53m / e10 61m
that would put the season avg a little over 56m so this could challenge seas 1 for longest runtime season:
seas 1 56.08
seas 2 54.25
seas 3 55.35
seas 4 54.35

Unfortunately theres no nudity flag for eps 8,9 but yaaay back for ep10.

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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
I've said in the past that I had hoped Stannis march to Winterfell would get some air time, and I was glad to see it did on Sunday .. I rewatched last night and I have to say, it's a great example of what B&W do ..


In the book, Stannis march was long .. getting progressively worse and worse as time went by and the snow kept coming .. yet, in this last episode, in a very brief time, the essence of the march was captured .. by just cutting to the chase .. Stannis is getting desperate, things are falling apart and Melisandre suggests Shireen as a sacrifice .. that's it .. yet, if we look at that same build up in the book, I can't even remember how many pages and pages were devoted to the march ..


So, although I'd like to have it all, I'll take what I can get and kudos to B&W for taking a bloated, meandering and over written manuscript and taking it down to the core .. yet still making it so non-readers become fans ..
Stuff that makes good drama in books doesn't always translate to tv or movies. You can't really depict all the problems of being snowbound because you have minutes to relay problems that happen over weeks. So you gets Ser Davos to just give exposition of everything to Stannis by explaining everything that's going on with a couple of shots of snow and, bingo!, you have a hundred pages of book culled down to 2 minutes.

Martin's books are fine as drama but they aren't like Elmore Leonard's writing or Michael Crichton's writing which were more like screenplays and don't lend themselves to tv as much as just showing the plotlines. I'm really glad that the show is moving ahead of the books and that Tyrion has met Dany. Lets get this stuff moving. I don't know if I will live long enough to read the books (or that Martin will live long enough to write them).

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
I've said in the past that I had hoped Stannis march to Winterfell would get some air time, and I was glad to see it did on Sunday .. I rewatched last night and I have to say, it's a great example of what B&W do ..


In the book, Stannis march was long .. getting progressively worse and worse as time went by and the snow kept coming .. yet, in this last episode, in a very brief time, the essence of the march was captured .. by just cutting to the chase .. Stannis is getting desperate, things are falling apart and Melisandre suggests Shireen as a sacrifice .. that's it .. yet, if we look at that same build up in the book, I can't even remember how many pages and pages were devoted to the march ..


So, although I'd like to have it all, I'll take what I can get and kudos to B&W for taking a bloated, meandering and over written manuscript and taking it down to the core .. yet still making it so non-readers become fans ..
I only read the books a few months ago. Was a big fan of the show for the past few years. I devoured the books in a couple of weeks. The show got me interested in the books. Funny how that works sometimes.
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post #2514 of 2517 Unread Today, 12:54 PM
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I only read the books a few months ago. Was a big fan of the show for the past few years. I devoured the books in a couple of weeks. The show got me interested in the books. Funny how that works sometimes.
I hadn't even heard of the books until I started watching the show. After the first couple of eps, I got the books and also devoured them. I was "lucky" that I only had to wait about a month until Book 5 came out. Not so lucky anymore.
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"...but these changes corrupt the story in ways that make it into something completely different"

My copies of the books are there on the shelf, and their text is the same as it always was. Nothing the TV show does can affect the books.

The TV show is something completely different. By necessity. the books are full of endless exposition, description, internal monologues, historical references. When it's necessary to explain something, you just explain it, no matter how many pages it takes or how many references to characters past, present, living, dead you have to reel in to do so.

On TV, every character is an actor you must hire, pay, costume, rehearse, and budget screen time for, at the expense of other actors you've already paid. Every description is a physical set that has to be built. Every internal monologue has to be rewritten into dialog with some other character, who has to be there for some reason other than to listen to our character talk (although we've seen that happen once or twice, and it always seems wierd).

Most importantly, it is necessary to condense, condense, condense. The audiobook of A Storm of Swords alone is 47 hours long!

There are always multiple versions of great stories, and the longer they exist the more often they are retold, and when they are adapted into new media, they change. Look at the Grimms' fairy tales. Look at Sherlock Holmes. Look at James Bond, for that matter. Look at any mainstream comic book character and the ways their stories are reshaped every time they're told. How much resemblance is there between the MCU Avengers and the original comics version?

The source material is not affected by any of this. We can go read the books any time, and not a word will be different. The TV version of ASOIAF is a retelling, not a revison. There is no guarantee that they will even end the same way. There is no guarantee that one version won't go on past the ending of the other, for that matter.

As a book reader, I see this as value added. It takes nothing away from the books I enjoyed, and will probably enjoy again. Plus it adds this whole other experience, including alternate story elements, alternate character fates, and possible even alternate outcomes. Its a win for everyone.
I've not read the books so cannot comment on the changes made so far but I completely agree with the above as it relates to the comic book movies vs. the original stories published. Well written opinion and I also can enjoy each for what they are.
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post #2516 of 2517 Unread Today, 02:38 PM
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I devoured the books in a couple of weeks.
You read 5,216 pgs in 14 days - thats 372 pgs a day.

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I must hang my head in shame .. I apparently read at a snails pace .. and I will re-read passages as I go ..

Uncle Willie


Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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