"The Walking Dead" on AMC HD - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post


This brings up an interesting question, doesn't it? Even though Shane is a complete scumbag, should he be leading the group? After all, he's clearly able to make the hard decisions, sacrificing one for the good of the group.

Of course he'd also sacricice the group if it helped his survival chances...

I'm also going off what the producer said.

I think they'll have it more ambiguous on the show; that he will second guess himself, show it like he's talking himself into the fact he did it for the kid and not making it clear to the audience if he was doing it for the kid or not. They'll keep him straddling the morality vs. needs undertone.
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post #992 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 11:48 AM
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I'd say that the morality boat sailed a long time ago for Shane. He may still feel some guilt, but his actions speak louder. He's more worried about being caught than about his own morality.
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post #993 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

Exactly, not at all like the soldier example.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that by going with option B that all 3 of them die? How many extra people have to die before you sacrifice 1 out of the group to save all the rest instead? Ten, a hundred? "Um, instead of just Otis dying we want that Otis dies AND I die AND this child dies. I would rather that child die and I can rest in peace than that child live and I have a little survivor guilt." That's horrible.

If there's ever a zombie apocalypse I hope some here aren't making those decisions that get all of the rest of the survivors killed.

How about a quick Option C? A quick 5 second conversation near the end: "we're not gonna make it, one of us has to create a distraction".

Given the characters, Otis likely would have given Shane the bag and tried to fight off the zombies. Anyways, I love this show, just hated your comment about how "most of us" would have pulled a Shane.
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post #994 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post

So does the farm house have a generator? I missed that part if they said so. Can't recall if they explained how they have power and running water.

In one of the outdoor shots, I saw a smallish propane tank. Is it enough to power the house for however long this event has lasted? I have no idea.

Maybe they've been scrounging propane from other farms and refilling their tank.

Doug
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post #995 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rsambuca View Post


How about a quick Option C? A quick 5 second conversation near the end: "we're not gonna make it, one of us has to create a distraction".

Given the characters, Otis likely would have given Shane the bag and tried to fight off the zombies. Anyways, I love this show, just hated your comment about how "most of us" would have pulled a Shane.

I was being deliberately flippant
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post #996 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 01:14 PM
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post #997 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

Why does everyone keep ignoring that by going with option B that all 3 of them die?

Because that was not a given.

Shane in that moment did not "know" that they would both die...

As others have pointed out, they were both stopped and talking and the walkers were in the distance... they had time to chat, then Shane shot Otis, then Shane wrestled and punched Otis to get the backpack... and still in all that time the walkers had not caught up to them.

That means there was no imminent danger yet.

Shane shot Otis when there was no need to shoot him.

You could see the bus in the background, and they were finally getting close to the truck... Others have pointed out it was also stupid wasting bullets on walkers in the distance instead of saving the bullets for close-up walkers.

Otis was fat and slow... but Shane was hobbled and slow... and they kinda looked like they were moving at the same speed... so the "fat guy was slowing him down" excuse doesn't hold water either.

And earlier... Otis has offered to sacrifice himself... Otis might have offered again IF it came to that... so Shane shot and left the guy to die involuntarily who had already proven he would volunteer!

It was consistent with Shane... so I'm not complaining about that... but people who are trying to make Shane into a hero for saving the kid... or trying to say "we would all do what Shane did" are just flat out wrong.

IF you truly would do what Shane did... I don't want you where I can't keep my eyes on you!

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post #998 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

In one of the outdoor shots, I saw a smallish propane tank. Is it enough to power the house for however long this event has lasted? I have no idea.

Maybe they've been scrounging propane from other farms and refilling their tank.

Doug

Actually, this cropped up during last weeks episode, the "How do they have hot water and lights".

Many farms will have large diesel reserves and their own tanks (for tractors, etc). They could be running off a diesel generator, for electricity - and have an electric hot water tank. Or, maybe they have solar panels on the other side of the house, they've gone green!
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post #999 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I would never do what Shane did, especially after how much Otis helped. I couldn't live with myself.

To be fair, based on Shane's demeanor upon return to the house, it's not entirely clear he can either.
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post #1000 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post


Because that was not a given.

Shane in that moment did not "know" that they would both die...

As others have pointed out, they were both stopped and talking and the walkers were in the distance... they had time to chat, then Shane shot Otis, then Shane wrestled and punched Otis to get the backpack... and still in all that time the walkers had not caught up to them.

That means there was no imminent danger yet.

Shane shot Otis when there was no need to shoot him.

You could see the bus in the background, and they were finally getting close to the truck... Others have pointed out it was also stupid wasting bullets on walkers in the distance instead of saving the bullets for close-up walkers.

Otis was fat and slow... but Shane was hobbled and slow... and they kinda looked like they were moving at the same speed... so the "fat guy was slowing him down" excuse doesn't hold water either.

My gosh, we must be watching two different shows. Otis actually had to help Shane up and start pulling him along. The zombies WERE closing in and Shane could barely move forward at that point. Shane was clearly going to be dead meat.

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post #1001 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

Because that was not a given.

Shane in that moment did not "know" that they would both die...

As others have pointed out, they were both stopped and talking and the walkers were in the distance... they had time to chat, then Shane shot Otis, then Shane wrestled and punched Otis to get the backpack... and still in all that time the walkers had not caught up to them.

That means there was no imminent danger yet.

Shane shot Otis when there was no need to shoot him.

You could see the bus in the background, and they were finally getting close to the truck... Others have pointed out it was also stupid wasting bullets on walkers in the distance instead of saving the bullets for close-up walkers.

Otis was fat and slow... but Shane was hobbled and slow... and they kinda looked like they were moving at the same speed... so the "fat guy was slowing him down" excuse doesn't hold water either.

And earlier... Otis has offered to sacrifice himself... Otis might have offered again IF it came to that... so Shane shot and left the guy to die involuntarily who had already proven he would volunteer!

It was consistent with Shane... so I'm not complaining about that... but people who are trying to make Shane into a hero for saving the kid... or trying to say "we would all do what Shane did" are just flat out wrong.

IF you truly would do what Shane did... I don't want you where I can't keep my eyes on you!

As I said, going by what the Producer said, in Shane's mind it WAS a given. And if it is a given, then it was the right thing to do.
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post #1002 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 04:05 PM
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Maybe if the pic quality didnt suck so much we could actually see how far the zombs were away.

....see how i spun it back to PQ.

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post #1003 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 04:58 PM
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Maybe if the pic quality didnt suck so much we could actually see how far the zombs were away.

....see how i spun it back to PQ.

True. In fact, in that moment Shane might have mistaken Otis for a zombie.
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post #1004 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

As I said, going by what the Producer said, in Shane's mind it WAS a given. And if it is a given, then it was the right thing to do.

But that's the point... Shane's state of mind is a HUGE problem. He is an egomaniac and seems to be working on being a psychopath as well.

The Producer said it was a "given" in "Shane's mind"...

The point here is not that what happened on the show was wrong. It was right, given the characters involved.

We aren't arguing, for example, that the main character on Dexter shouldn't be killing people... we're just arguing he is unstable.

Shane did what was right in "his mind"... but Shane is increasingly NOT in his right mind.

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post #1005 of 6212 Old 11-03-2011, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

True. In fact, in that moment Shane might have mistaken Otis for a zombie.

If only Shane could have held out for the Blu-ray release... then he could have seen Otis more clearly

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post #1006 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 06:39 AM
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First off I haven't seen this addressed but I don't remember the zombies in season 1 being as quick on their feet? I don't recall zombies ever running in season 1, but clearly in the woods chasing Sophia and in the school we have zombies that are very good runners. Have they asked Kirkman or anyone else about this change?

On the Shane/Otis thing. First off, who among us didn't figure that Otis was not going to make it even before they went there? He's a big guy, he can barely move. I figured he was toast when they split up and he went in the locker room.

As for Shane shooting him, people make it seem like they were not in any danger. Watch the scene again. Shane had fallen out the gym window and hurt his ankle. He was hobbled ever since then and struggling. He fell down again as they ran from the zombies right before he shot Otis, and in fact it was Otis that was telling him to get up and keep moving.. he was not nearly as mobile as he needed to be to outrun them. He had to shoot Otis to get them off his trail. it is in his character and it was based on his situation at that time.

Of the main group I wouldn't mind them killing of the Asian kid. He's giving them nothing this season at all. They have done nothing with his character at all.
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post #1007 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 06:57 AM
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The point here is not that what happened on the show was wrong. It was right, given the characters involved.

We aren't arguing, for example, that the main character on Dexter shouldn't be killing people... we're just arguing he is unstable.

Shane did what was right in "his mind"... but Shane is increasingly NOT in his right mind.

Actually, I'm not arguing either point.

I'm arguing that the whole deal was a stupid waste of a potentially useful character later in the series. Otis is a nice guy who gives it his all and owns up to things when he screws up. He can hunt (he got two dumb animals in one shot) and is resourceful and has EMT skills.

I'd rather see one of the cannon fodder that that makes up the main cast get replaced by him. Maybe they could cut production costs with a 2 for 1.

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Of the main group I wouldn't mind them killing of the Asian kid. He's giving them nothing this season at all. They have done nothing with his character at all.

He was useful last season. They've just been too busy concentrating on the boo-hoo drama to give him anything to do...

...which is another reason killing off Otis ticks me off. We have a character that does something, acts rationally and is willing to lay it on the line if it means somebody else survives.

Now we're back to the whiny women who have kiddy and gun issues, the Shane and Rick spy vs. spy battle that only Shane seems to be in on and two helpful characters (Glenn and Daryl) being reduced to wandering aimlessly. Dale seems to have found his nitch pretending to fix the motor home.

T-Dog, though....what the Hell? Has he been good for anything? All he's done is dropped keys to free someone from handcuffs down a drain, cut himself almost fatally (but then later not so much) and require rescuing every 5 minutes.

We keep him but kill off Otis? This is like the death of Mr. Ecko all over again...
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post #1008 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 08:17 AM
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First off I haven't seen this addressed but I don't remember the zombies in season 1 being as quick on their feet? I don't recall zombies ever running in season 1, but clearly in the woods chasing Sophia and in the school we have zombies that are very good runners. Have they asked Kirkman or anyone else about this change?

On the Shane/Otis thing. First off, who among us didn't figure that Otis was not going to make it even before they went there? He's a big guy, he can barely move. I figured he was toast when they split up and he went in the locker room.

As for Shane shooting him, people make it seem like they were not in any danger. Watch the scene again. Shane had fallen out the gym window and hurt his ankle. He was hobbled ever since then and struggling. He fell down again as they ran from the zombies right before he shot Otis, and in fact it was Otis that was telling him to get up and keep moving.. he was not nearly as mobile as he needed to be to outrun them. He had to shoot Otis to get them off his trail. it is in his character and it was based on his situation at that time.

Of the main group I wouldn't mind them killing of the Asian kid. He's giving them nothing this season at all. They have done nothing with his character at all.

On Talking Dead Kirkman said that a fresh zombie would be quite quick on his feet and that they get slower as they further decompose. I found too that they were running too fast.
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post #1009 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 08:49 AM
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We keep him but kill off Otis? This is like the death of Mr. Ecko all over again...

In the case of Eko, that character would have stuck around longer had the actor protraying him wished to remain in Hawaii. Or perhaps if they had gone with Lance Reddick in the role, who happened to be Cuse/Lindelof's original choice (busy shooting The Wire back then - later popped up as Abaddon).

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post #1010 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 09:35 AM
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On Talking Dead Kirkman said that a fresh zombie would be quite quick on his feet and that they get slower as they further decompose. I found too that they were running too fast.

Yeah he said they wouldn't be like 28 days later which was a virus, but that they would be much faster in the beginning.

I loved how they really used a double amputee to play the part of the zombie that was grabbing at the legs in the school gym. Nice of them to use real people instead of CGI'ing everything and good for that guy too.

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post #1011 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 03:57 PM
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I loved how they really used a double amputee to play the part of the zombie that was grabbing at the legs in the school gym. Nice of them to use real people instead of CGI'ing everything and good for that guy too.

I thought the same thing... there have to be lots of single and double amputee people who are actors or aspire to be actors and would do well in a role instead of using CGI.

I like Gary Sinese, for example, but the whole time I watched Forrest Gump and marveled at the CGI... I kept thinking how there was probably a double-amputee somewhere watching that movie and thinking how he could have played that role and not cost them so much in CGI.

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post #1012 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 07:16 PM
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Yeah he said they wouldn't be like 28 days later which was a virus, but that they would be much faster in the beginning.

I loved how they really used a double amputee to play the part of the zombie that was grabbing at the legs in the school gym. Nice of them to use real people instead of CGI'ing everything and good for that guy too.

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I thought the same thing... there have to be lots of single and double amputee people who are actors or aspire to be actors and would do well in a role instead of using CGI.

I like Gary Sinese, for example, but the whole time I watched Forrest Gump and marveled at the CGI... I kept thinking how there was probably a double-amputee somewhere watching that movie and thinking how he could have played that role and not cost them so much in CGI.

They used a lot of amputees in "Starship Troopers" during the alien attack scene on the planet. Any time someone was getting their arms or legs ripped off, it was artificial limbs attached to someone who as already missing them.

In the case of Forest Gump, I don't know any big name actors who are missing their legs, so they weren't going to get that for the part. Let's face it, they likely wanted someone with a name for the role.

Further, he had to be able to walk prior to him losing his legs, so special effects were really the only option.

There was the same controversy over Laura Innes playing a disabled person on E.R. In the end, they wanted Laura Innes for the role and that's who got it.
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post #1013 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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They only have to use so many makeup effects on the show because they couldn't get Keith Richards and Iggy Pop.


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post #1014 of 6212 Old 11-04-2011, 09:39 PM
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In the case of Forest Gump, I don't know any big name actors who are missing their legs, so they weren't going to get that for the part. Let's face it, they likely wanted someone with a name for the role.

Further, he had to be able to walk prior to him losing his legs, so special effects were really the only option.

There was the same controversy over Laura Innes playing a disabled person on E.R. In the end, they wanted Laura Innes for the role and that's who got it.

I agree... and I wasn't meaning it as a slam... that's why I made sure I mentioned that I like Gary Sinese.

That's why it is good to hear/see that they are using amputee actors in roles where they aren't looking to fill with a "big name" rather than CGI-ing everyone.

Walking Dead isn't going to get to a major star role since you won't be recognized under the zombie makeup... but it might get you connections, and if you are a good actor... then there might be a good role one day that comes to one of these guys (or gals) where they will be recognized.

This kind of fits with a documentary I watched about the making of "Dances with Wolves" and they were talking about how hollywood traditionally didn't cast actual Native American actors in roles for TV or movies... you see a lot of old movies with a white guy in makeup that you are supposed to believe is an "Indian"... and it takes you out of the experience.

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post #1015 of 6212 Old 11-05-2011, 08:16 AM
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This kind of fits with a documentary I watched about the making of "Dances with Wolves" and they were talking about how hollywood traditionally didn't cast actual Native American actors in roles for TV or movies... you see a lot of old movies with a white guy in makeup that you are supposed to believe is an "Indian"... and it takes you out of the experience.

Not to defend the practice, but there were legitimate reasons for it:

- For the non-speaking roles, the "Indians" were often played by stunt performers, who were often white males in the industry. These guys had to be able to make it look like a horse was shot out from under them on cue, and there were almost no Native American stunt people at the time.

- Other than the "Chief" that has some sort of understanding with the character played by John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart, most of the tribe was composed of composite non-speaking roles where the only reason for them being there was to be shot off of a horse in the big gun battle. Since there were few Native American actors at the time and westerns were being made left and right, you ended up with guys like Michael Pate or even Ricardo Montalban filling the role.

Even with "Dances with Wolves, the tribe was changed to Lakota Sioux due to not being able to find enough Comanche players. Even then, few of them actually spoke the language prior to production (which resulted in Kevin Costner having to threaten to fire everyone if they didn't learn their lines).
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post #1016 of 6212 Old 11-05-2011, 10:35 AM
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Did they use a real wolf?

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post #1017 of 6212 Old 11-05-2011, 11:07 AM
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Did they use a real wolf?

Unlike some movies and shows that use wolves bred with dogs (or simply use Huskies, Akitas or Malamutes), they did actually use a real wolf for Dances With Wolves.

It caused a lot of problems, though, since even trained wolves are unpredictable. There was a stand-in actor used for Kevin Costner for some of the close-up "Dancing" shots and the wolf actually bit the guy during one shot.

The wolf was almost as unreliable as Bruce the Shark.

That's why they usually use wolves that are part domesticated dog. It settles them down and makes them more trainable. The problem is, you don't get that lean, angular look that a real wolf has.
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post #1018 of 6212 Old 11-05-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Not to defend the practice, but there were legitimate reasons for it:

- For the non-speaking roles, the "Indians" were often played by stunt performers, who were often white males in the industry. These guys had to be able to make it look like a horse was shot out from under them on cue, and there were almost no Native American stunt people at the time.

- Other than the "Chief" that has some sort of understanding with the character played by John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart, most of the tribe was composed of composite non-speaking roles where the only reason for them being there was to be shot off of a horse in the big gun battle. Since there were few Native American actors at the time and westerns were being made left and right, you ended up with guys like Michael Pate or even Ricardo Montalban filling the role.

I do actually understand all of that... but if you aren't careful it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent.

A. Don't hire actors who look the part because no qualified actors can be found.
B. No qualified actors can be found because no one ever gets a part.

Its a vicious circle to some extent... where if you don't take advantage of resources and don't have anyone encouraging people to try, then you never have a pool of resources.

Back to the Walking dead... IF a show like this didn't use amputees, then there would be less actors available the next time around for the next show that could have used an amputee actor.

That's all I was meaning... it has to start somewhere... so its nice to know there are productions that are forward thinking (and it probably helps keep their budget in check to boot) and we might have some of these amputee zombie extras be good enough and get noticed for a bigger role in something else.

Hollywood is littered with stories of actors that got a bigger role because they were noticed as an extra in something else. That's all I was getting at. I'm glad to know that this is happening, and if I hadn't read about it or seen the behind the scenes, I would have assumed they were using CGI or other trickery for the armless/legless zombies.

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post #1019 of 6212 Old 11-06-2011, 07:17 AM
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Unfortunately there are more amputees around now than there has been in a long time.
Everyday now, here in the DC area I see someone that has had some type of amputation. All this from our personnel being in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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post #1020 of 6212 Old 11-06-2011, 08:05 PM
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That.......THING at the bottom of the well........

was one of the scariest and disgusting things I have ever seen.

I like how the characters are being developed (including Shane).

Looks like Mearle will return next week.....
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