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post #11071 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 05:43 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, I don't recall the saviors ever calling themselves other than Negans.

Even if they did, there is no way I would call them that when they are not around! Anything but that. Instead all we hear is "saviors, saviors, saviors, saviors, saviors...."

I guess everybody in the WD universe is a big fan of WD comics
Wait, if they were reading the comics from 2003, that means they knew about zombies!!
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post #11072 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 10:28 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, I don't recall the saviors ever calling themselves other than Negans.

Even if they did, there is no way I would call them that when they are not around! Anything but that. Instead all we hear is "saviors, saviors, saviors, saviors, saviors...."

I guess everybody in the WD universe is a big fan of WD comics
Wait, if they were reading the comics from 2003, that means they knew about zombies!!
Yes, they have called that group the Saviors a while ago. They learned the leader of the Saviors was Neegan, then when they attacked their outpost they started hearing them call themselves Neegan. Hilltop told them about the saviors, etc. etc. Hilltop did not say the group called Neegan, they said the saviors, etc.

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post #11073 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 12:41 PM
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I'm not sure if AMC and Kirkman really are doing what's right for the show in the long term and a re instead doing what works and is easy in the short term.
Seven seasons. This is the long term.
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post #11074 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 01:34 PM
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Seven seasons. This is the long term.
Yep. I wonder how much longer TWD will go.
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post #11075 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 01:35 PM
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Yep. I wonder how much longer TWD will go.
Until the ratings tell AMC to stop.
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post #11076 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 02:39 PM
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Until the ratings tell AMC to stop.
But when? Is its ratings falling that badly now?
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post #11077 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 02:42 PM
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If you watch the Talking Dead, they read tweets from fans, which indicate a core of avid viewers who uncritically love everything about the show. Of course they won't read anything critical of the show on AMC but there's probably enough loyal fans to keep it going however Kirkman and the producers want it.

So after a couple of seasons of Negan and finally defeating him, they'll probably have to conjure up another big bad villain, sacrifice a couple more regular cast members, and then repeat the struggle again.

And fans will continue to dress up like zombies and loyally watch the show.
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post #11078 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 03:18 PM
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I don't have any idea how long Negan will last on the show .. as an aside ::

Timothy Olyphant, Matt Dillon and Garret Dillahunt were all considered for the role .. I think Dillon might have been able to pull off the sarcastic, gas bag rhetoric swagger bad joke Jeffrey Dean Morgan keeps trying for and never quite getting ..
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post #11079 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 07:36 PM
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I don't have any idea how long Negan will last on the show .. as an aside ::

Timothy Olyphant, Matt Dillon and Garret Dillahunt were all considered for the role .. I think Dillon might have been able to pull off the sarcastic, gas bag rhetoric swagger bad joke Jeffrey Dean Morgan keeps trying for and never quite getting ..
I would like to see Timothy Olyphant take over for Rick and lead the group against Negan.
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post #11080 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 08:43 PM
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But without the walker threat, they can go to wide scale agriculture just like we have now.

There would be less of a need for groups to go to war for the limited harvests they have now.

The govt would probably reconstitute, unless they're claiming only a few million survived out of a nation of 360 million. The US govt. had contingency plans to re-form after a nuclear war. They had stockpiles of food, drugs and currency.
The walkers aren't stopping people from agriculture or rebuilding society any more than wild animals in general.

Inside the prison, for example, they were full well able to keep the walkers out and have a large are for gardening and livestock... The problem? The Governor wrecked their prison fencing. People are consistently the problem, not the walkers.

In the real world, people go to war for all kinds of stupid reasons... and we don't have zombies, as far as we know... so the theory that eliminating walkers would mean "no need for groups to go to war" is naive at best. People, like the Negans of the world, will always want to run things just because he can.

I've posted countless times.. it isn't as interesting of a story... but IF this happened in real life, once you survive the initial surprise attacks from the dead... it would be easy to bounce back. You kill all the undead you find. Stop sleeping with other people, always sleep alone in a locked room. Someone doesn't let themselves out the next day, you know you need to go in there armed and ready to kill them because they died during the night. Always cremate the dead, immediately... never go anywhere alone, always in a group so no one surprise dies and comes back to attack you later.

Then, all that is required is for people to cooperate and rebuild. But that is the toughest part. Getting people to not take advantage of the situation to mount their own quest for power. You'd be like pre-industrial revolution again in some ways until you managed to take out all the bad/power mongering groups.

The walkers, and this is true to the story Kirkman wants to tell, were never the story. They are a prop. The story is how many horrible people will wreck things for the good people, after whatever apocalyptic thing happens.
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post #11081 of 11661 Old 11-30-2016, 10:41 PM
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Hilltop told them about the saviors, etc
Yes, they did. But never the Negans.
But nobody would ever call them saviors again in a privet conversations, as.....s, mo...s, as...s,co.....s, , you name it, but wouldn't call them saviors.

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The walkers aren't stopping people from agriculture or rebuilding society any more than wild animals in general.

Inside the prison, for example, they were full well able to keep the walkers out and have a large are for gardening and livestock... The problem? The Governor wrecked their prison fencing. People are consistently the problem, not the walkers.

In the real world, people go to war for all kinds of stupid reasons... and we don't have zombies, as far as we know... so the theory that eliminating walkers would mean "no need for groups to go to war" is naive at best. People, like the Negans of the world, will always want to run things just because he can.

I've posted countless times.. it isn't as interesting of a story... but IF this happened in real life, once you survive the initial surprise attacks from the dead... it would be easy to bounce back. You kill all the undead you find. Stop sleeping with other people, always sleep alone in a locked room. Someone doesn't let themselves out the next day, you know you need to go in there armed and ready to kill them because they died during the night. Always cremate the dead, immediately... never go anywhere alone, always in a group so no one surprise dies and comes back to attack you later.

Then, all that is required is for people to cooperate and rebuild. But that is the toughest part. Getting people to not take advantage of the situation to mount their own quest for power. You'd be like pre-industrial revolution again in some ways until you managed to take out all the bad/power mongering groups.

The walkers, and this is true to the story Kirkman wants to tell, were never the story. They are a prop. The story is how many horrible people will wreck things for the good people, after whatever apocalyptic thing happens.
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post #11082 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 07:57 AM
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I would like to see Timothy Olyphant take over for Rick and lead the group against Negan.
As Raylan Givens or Seth Bullock .. ?? ..
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post #11083 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 08:12 AM
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As Raylan Givens or Seth Bullock .. ?? ..
His Hitman character will blow away Neegan and his gang quite handily.
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post #11084 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 12:20 PM
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His Hitman character will blow away Neegan and his gang quite handily.
Great movie. Need to watch it again. Oh and Olga too. Mmm.
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post #11085 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 02:07 PM
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The walkers aren't stopping people from agriculture or rebuilding society any more than wild animals in general.

Inside the prison, for example, they were full well able to keep the walkers out and have a large are for gardening and livestock... The problem? The Governor wrecked their prison fencing. People are consistently the problem, not the walkers.

In the real world, people go to war for all kinds of stupid reasons... and we don't have zombies, as far as we know... so the theory that eliminating walkers would mean "no need for groups to go to war" is naive at best. People, like the Negans of the world, will always want to run things just because he can.

I've posted countless times.. it isn't as interesting of a story... but IF this happened in real life, once you survive the initial surprise attacks from the dead... it would be easy to bounce back. You kill all the undead you find. Stop sleeping with other people, always sleep alone in a locked room. Someone doesn't let themselves out the next day, you know you need to go in there armed and ready to kill them because they died during the night. Always cremate the dead, immediately... never go anywhere alone, always in a group so no one surprise dies and comes back to attack you later.

Then, all that is required is for people to cooperate and rebuild. But that is the toughest part. Getting people to not take advantage of the situation to mount their own quest for power. You'd be like pre-industrial revolution again in some ways until you managed to take out all the bad/power mongering groups.

The walkers, and this is true to the story Kirkman wants to tell, were never the story. They are a prop. The story is how many horrible people will wreck things for the good people, after whatever apocalyptic thing happens.
I'm not talking about some fenced in little plots. More like this:

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/f...-piperata.html

Can you safely breed livestock with walkers around? How much grazing can you let cattle do?

When production is huge, there's no point in Negan taking 50% from every group. It would be more than he can consume or store before food spoils. So if Hilltop increases production by at least 10 fold, Negan can take 5% to get the same amount. Or he can still take 50% but he'd likely have to sell a lot of it or trade it. Or take 50% from Hilltop but much less from other groups.

And Hilltop, even if they gave up 50% to Negan of 10x production, they still have 5X the production they used to have, so they can sell/trade a lot of it.


At the same time, mortality or life expectancy increases again and you may see a boom in births, so in 20 years, you have a much bigger population, which is harder for Negan to control. Not without large weapons systems like aircraft and something better than guys with guns in regular cars.

But if he starts to commit massacres (like the Oceanside males) to keep all these groups which will have much more resources, then sooner or later, there will be revolt and the groups will combine resources to defeat him. Hell, you assume there will be war coming to WD anyways, even with zombies around and resources being scarce.

Why did barbarians, vikings and other raiding cultures stop attacking European cities? They weren't all conquered. Eventually production increased and they didn't have to try to survive by taking away resources from other tribes.
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post #11086 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 07:08 PM
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As Raylan Givens or Seth Bullock .. ?? ..
Tell you what, if Justified or Deadwood were still on and opposite TWD, the choice of which to watch would be a no brainer. I have the last 4 episodes of FTWD on DVR that I can not bring myself to watch and TWD may soon join them.
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post #11087 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 07:33 PM
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I'm not talking about some fenced in little plots. More like this:

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/f...-piperata.html


No reason why larger areas couldn't be farmed... but there haven't been any large enough groups shown to necessitate such an undertaking as yet. None of these groups have enough people to drive the need for that size of farmland as yet... but if they ever found a safe area, they could certainly do it. The walkers wouldn't be the problem. Walkers can pretty easily be kept out, as they have shown quite a bit on the show.

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Can you safely breed livestock with walkers around? How much grazing can you let cattle do?
Sure. They were raising animals in the prison... Hershel had livestock on his farm... looks like Negan has some in his place... Hilltop has some... and we have seen random wild dogs and deer and horses and other animals wandering around. It doesn't seem like the Walkers actually have any interest in the other animals in general and will leave them alone unless people are nearby.

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When production is huge, there's no point in Negan taking 50% from every group. It would be more than he can consume or store before food spoils. So if Hilltop increases production by at least 10 fold, Negan can take 5% to get the same amount. Or he can still take 50% but he'd likely have to sell a lot of it or trade it. Or take 50% from Hilltop but much less from other groups.
You're making a false assumption about Negan here... assuming that he is only taking 50% because he "needs" it... Negan takes what he wants, period. He will waste stuff... he doesn't care. He just doesn't want you and your group to have it... He'll take stuff he doesn't need just to keep it from you. IF Negan's motives were just for survival, he wouldn't be doing half the stuff he does.

IF you raise your production 10x... Negan will still take half... whether he needs it or not. That's how he rolls.

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And Hilltop, even if they gave up 50% to Negan of 10x production, they still have 5X the production they used to have, so they can sell/trade a lot of it.
Only if Negan permits it. Why is Negan going to allow you to trade with other groups? Negan wants to rule and be the top dog... IF people are able to pay his "taxes" without feeling stressed, he gets concerned that they might rise against him... He's going to nip that in the bud. He'll take more or he'll just burn it. Negan might roll in and just randomly set fire to your crops if it suits him. He's that kind of crazy.

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At the same time, mortality or life expectancy increases again and you may see a boom in births, so in 20 years, you have a much bigger population, which is harder for Negan to control.
The only thing preventing this right now is the people... like Negan. The Walkers aren't stopping people from reproducing or establishing safe farming zones. That's my whole point. The Walkers are just wild animals. If a group wanted to, they could easily clear out an area of farmland and establish a border and live securely inside it and have lots of land to farm and raise livestock. What keeps stopping people from doing these things are OTHER groups of living people... like Negan.

IF you could get out from under Negan and stay off the radar... you could happily raise and multiply and rebuild civilization... unless Negan finds you and you aren't ready to take him on... The Walkers are just a nuisance really.
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post #11088 of 11661 Old 12-01-2016, 08:20 PM
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They would be using machines to do large-scale farming.

If the walkers don't bother livestock, that's a new one because they took down horses in the first season.

If Negan has been demanding half all this time, as his dominion grows (that is the more people he's taking half from), there will be even more reason to revolt.

They're going to show Rick eventually defeating Negan and it will likely be with the help of others under Negan's rule who have motivations to get out from under the Negan tax.
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post #11089 of 11661 Old 12-02-2016, 06:48 AM
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Exactly - he takes other people's stuff because he can, not because he might need it. The mattresses they took from Alexandria are a good example. Obviously they don't need them but just didn't want the Alexandrians to have them either.
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post #11090 of 11661 Old 12-02-2016, 04:02 PM
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They would be using machines to do large-scale farming.
If they could find working ones... and had fuel for them... but even so, there isn't a need to do large-scale farming unless they have large-scale population. For all these people have encountered, they are all that's left. They wouldn't have a reason to do large-scale farming, even if they could, until the population grew significantly. In the real world, people didn't start out doing large-scale farming... It grew as societies grew.

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If the walkers don't bother livestock, that's a new one because they took down horses in the first season.
I remember one horse, that Rick was riding at the time... then a few seasons later there was another one, but people were trying to catch that horse too. The horses in both cases had survived quite a while completely on their own apparently... it was only when living people got involved that the walkers seemed to find them and take an interest.

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If Negan has been demanding half all this time, as his dominion grows (that is the more people he's taking half from), there will be even more reason to revolt.

They're going to show Rick eventually defeating Negan and it will likely be with the help of others under Negan's rule who have motivations to get out from under the Negan tax.
Yeah... I mean, without spoiling things.. I don't know exactly how this will go because they don't always follow the comic narrative... but you have to figure they are gearing towards a team-up to take down Negan... but that's primarily because of Rick and his group's unifying influence. None of the other groups seem to want to resist on their own thus far. But that is my point anyway, that Negan is the problem... not the Walkers.

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Exactly - he takes other people's stuff because he can, not because he might need it. The mattresses they took from Alexandria are a good example. Obviously they don't need them but just didn't want the Alexandrians to have them either.
Yep. Negan is an ass! Sometimes he is literally cartoon-over-the-top-crazy... but he does what he does because he can and apparently because he enjoys it. Think about his village too. Not just people on his team... but people in prison, people earning "points" as he calls it to "buy" things from him. None of that is necessary at all... he just does it because he gets away with it.
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post #11091 of 11661 Old 12-03-2016, 09:18 AM
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My take is Negan does not necessarily "tax" other communities goods just because he can .. the key to Negan's ruling these people is fear .. part of that fear is the loss of goods .. if we don't cough up our 50% or whatever, he'll just come and take more ..

Negan's whole schtick is fear in order to keep his "subjects" in line .. "Don't pay your taxes and there will be repercussions .. " .. used for various effect since the dawn of Civilization ..

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post #11092 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 02:55 AM
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Wow. This episode gets the awards for both worst opener and most stupid action/inaction by Carl. He actually stood there listening to Neegan. He risked that drive, and I'm assuming he expected to be killed, when he decided to go there. All he had to do was pull the trigger!

Anything that happens from this point until Negan dies, I don't care.
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post #11093 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 03:29 AM
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They would be using machines to do large-scale farming.
Just harness some walkers to a plow and dangle a bell in front of 'em.
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post #11094 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 04:32 AM
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No wonder the ratings keep going down.


What a dump episode. Carl did all that to kill Neegan and when he had the chance he doesn't. Spencer's lame comments about Rick. All these episodes and we have barely moved things along with all their jumping around and focusing on one character is destroying the show. Just sooo disappointed in this season.

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post #11095 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 06:03 AM
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I didn't think it was horrible, but nothing exciting. It just annoys me that no one kills him when they have the chance. Carl had no problem blowing away others, but didn't shoot negan when he saw him? Why didn't he just empty the clip? Hopefully next weeks mid-season finally will give us some hope for a good rest of the season. If it's 90 mins of rick trying to swim across a lake, it's back to sunday night football for me (that or family guy).
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post #11096 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 06:51 AM
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Waiting for complaints about Rosita's part being too short, Rick and Aaron's part being too short, wanting more details on Spencer's successful supply run, and how Father Gabriel made it back okay (or did he ?).

Or, the Negan and Carl part was too long...
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post #11097 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by leebo View Post
Wow. This episode gets the awards for both worst opener and most stupid action/inaction by Carl. He actually stood there listening to Neegan. He risked that drive, and I'm assuming he expected to be killed, when he decided to go there. All he had to do was pull the trigger!

Anything that happens from this point until Negan dies, I don't care.
Even in the apocalyptic world of TWD there are stupid teenagers. Carl has never been the brightest teenager.

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post #11098 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post
Wow. This episode gets the awards for both worst opener and most stupid action/inaction by Carl. He actually stood there listening to Negan. He risked that drive, and I'm assuming he expected to be killed, when he decided to go there. All he had to do was pull the trigger!
Anything that happens from this point until Negan dies, I don't care.
Maybe this might explain Carls future:


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post #11099 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 08:31 AM
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Waiting for complaints about Rosita's part being too short, Rick and Aaron's part being too short, wanting more details on Spencer's successful supply run, and how Father Gabriel made it back okay (or did he ?).

Or, the Negan and Carl part was too long...
The next episode is 90 minutes again.

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post #11100 of 11661 Old 12-05-2016, 09:19 AM
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Bad enough that Carl did not shoot Negan when he had the chance, but the scene where Negan says to hold my bat while I turn my back to you and talk to the people down below. No chance Carl could have bashed in the back of his head. He probably would have gotten cheers from the crowd.
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