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Old 02-23-2017, 08:30 AM
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I don't follow this logic. Kirkman had a popular comic book for years... so popular that it got him this TV deal... and the TV show brought in good numbers so they keep backing up trucks of money to him.

It's okay to not like the show... it's okay to critique its flaws too... but AMC bought the show and Kirkman and his ideas... IF you're AMC, you want that because that is what has proved to sell... and if you're Kirkman, you don't sell unless you keep control of your stuff. Otherwise, that's how we get shows that bear the name of a story but bear no resemblance to it... like Pet Sematary 2 or the multitudes of Children of the Corn sequels that have nothing to do with Stephen King or his original novel.

The flip side of this... is a creator like Alan Moore. He famously says that he writes a comic and that's the end of it. IF someone turns it into a movie, and pays him for the rights... fine... but he wants nothing to do with it and never will see it or promote it... whether it is good or bad. Of course, this is how you get a lot of Alan Moore inspired stuff that bears little resemblance to his work.. but there you go.

I understand the mechanics of it. People keep posting things like "Well Kirkman said....". Yes, everyone knows that. That's not the point. This show isn't headed anywhere good right now but they are at the point where it's still savable.Unfortunately, AMC seems determined to ride the bomb all the way down like Slim Pickens.

I don't know. Something about this last episode with the Romulan chick and her "Death by Snu Snu" speech patterns really shook me out of any remaining suspension of disbelief that I had. Governor, Claimers, Termites, Wolves, Negan, Kingdom, the all girl squad, and now the trash heap cavemen. Feels like I'm getting hit over the head with the same stick. It may work in the comic world, but its not working here.

People can hold up ratings all they want, but just look at this thread. When a new episode dropped, we would burn 3 to 5 pages on it. There isn't much more than that for the whole season. I've been with the show since the first episode and loved everything about it. Just feels like were being punked now. I'm not a Chris Hardwick fan but I've actually been feeling bad for him. Trying to get "UP" for an hour with this version of the show has got to be tough.
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:45 AM
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In the early seasons they had the CDC episode and talk of a search for cure.

The governor allowed some guy to do experiments to try to understand the process of people turning into walkers.

Then Eugene dangled the prospect of some solution or cure if he could only get to Washington DC but turns out he was a fraud.

So now, they've given up completely on cure. And these groups, some which are relatively prosperous like the Kingdom, seemed to have accepted their fate, which is to carve out some safe zone and try to have some semblance of the pre-apocalypse life.

The Saviors have the most resources but Negan doesn't seem to have any interest in changing the world, i.e. looking for a cure. Even he has to wonder if it's sustainable to conquer every group they come across and outsource the production or acquisition of food and other vital supplies.

So this world has settled into dog eat dog, survival of the fittest and the most ruthless.
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:46 AM
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If Hardwick can be enthusiastic as hell on "The Wall", I feel safe in saying it's a cakewalk on "Talking Dead" (disclaimer :: I am not a big Hardwick fan and I will only admit to viewing maybe 15 minutes of "The Wall", which was more than enough for a lifetime ..)

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Old 02-23-2017, 08:52 AM
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If Hardwick can be enthusiastic as hell on "The Wall", I feel safe in saying it's a cakewalk on "Talking Dead" (disclaimer :: I am not a big Hardwick fan and I will only admit to viewing maybe 15 minutes of "The Wall", which was more than enough for a lifetime ..)

I had to google "The Wall". Yeah, looks pretty horrid.
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:54 AM
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In the early seasons they had the CDC episode and talk of a search for cure.

The governor allowed some guy to do experiments to try to understand the process of people turning into walkers.

Then Eugene dangled the prospect of some solution or cure if he could only get to Washington DC but turns out he was a fraud.

So now, they've given up completely on cure. And these groups, some which are relatively prosperous like the Kingdom, seemed to have accepted their fate, which is to carve out some safe zone and try to have some semblance of the pre-apocalypse life.

The Saviors have the most resources but Negan doesn't seem to have any interest in changing the world, i.e. looking for a cure. Even he has to wonder if it's sustainable to conquer every group they come across and outsource the production or acquisition of food and other vital supplies.

So this world has settled into dog eat dog, survival of the fittest and the most ruthless.
My main wish for the plot, for some time, is more Urban settings and less Rural / Suburban .. but, of course, I think AMC wants to stay on as little a budget as humanly possible .. I mean, a dump / junkyard has got to be a pretty cheap set, it's almost fully ready made ..
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:57 AM
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The zombies were the threat long ago, as people didn't understand how to deal with them or what was going on. Now, the zombies are way too easily dispatched and really aren't a threat. They had to start having them show up in mass(herds), to have them present any danger or worry. The zombies in other shows, like 28 days later, are very threatening, as they have super human strength/abilities, not old lady speed and only a bite as a weapon, like WD zombies do.

So we are at the point, that the only real threats can come from human v human conflicts. That is why we have the bad guys of the month club like we do now. Starting to feel like an A team episode, but the bad guy survives longer. Negan is a great villian and they certainly are building up the suspense and hatred for long enough!! I think the show is still great and I know I will have to deal with those episodes that are boring and supposed to give us some character advancement. Just hope after Negan, they find an interesting story line, that keeps us wanting more.
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:00 AM
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I had to google "The Wall". Yeah, looks pretty horrid.
Yeah, horrid comes to mind .. Game Shows used to be spontaneous, er, games .. this thing is a highly scripted, pre-planned waste of time .. and I'll add :: I don't know how something like "This Is Us" gets the traction it does either .. {{shudder}}

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Old 02-23-2017, 09:30 AM
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The zombies were the threat long ago, as people didn't understand how to deal with them or what was going on. Now, the zombies are way too easily dispatched and really aren't a threat. They had to start having them show up in mass(herds), to have them present any danger or worry. The zombies in other shows, like 28 days later, are very threatening, as they have super human strength/abilities, not old lady speed and only a bite as a weapon, like WD zombies do.

So we are at the point, that the only real threats can come from human v human conflicts. That is why we have the bad guys of the month club like we do now. Starting to feel like an A team episode, but the bad guy survives longer. Negan is a great villian and they certainly are building up the suspense and hatred for long enough!! I think the show is still great and I know I will have to deal with those episodes that are boring and supposed to give us some character advancement. Just hope after Negan, they find an interesting story line, that keeps us wanting more.
Zombies still prevent normalization, trying to rebuild civilization.

If there were no zombies, some form of govt. would re-establish itself and you wouldn't have warfare of these tribes with cartoon villains.

Negan is only interesting because he has the largest tribe or gang, consisting of a lot of sociopaths. The show runners obviously were hoping the actor would be charismatic enough to carry the show for awhile. So you see in a lot of the promotional materials, they feature him and/or the bat, as if it's suppose to be iconic.

They failed to do this. Negan makes viewers roll their eyes and wish he'd shut up. Viewers will be happy when he eventually dies but not nearly as emotionally satisfying as when Joffrey or Waldor Frey got got. And incidentally, Red Wedding had way more emotional wallop and probably impact across social networks than Negan bludgeoning Abe and Glen to death, despite TWD having much higher ratings than GoT. The reason for that has a LOT to do with how they wrote the characters and scenes.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:37 AM
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...yet everyone is still watching it and discussing it
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:16 PM
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I agree with Tack. At first it worked because it was new, what was written in the comics lended itself to the TV, people got invested in the characters (hence all the talk of is Daryl dies they will revolt). But as it wore on, what he done in the comics is not lending itself to the TV medium and it shows in the ratings/comments on the internet. Just because it worked for a few years doesn't mean it always will. You have to adapt in a TV culture. Continually ramming down our throats his comic book stuff no longer works. Adapt or die, and the show is dying as a result.
But to what would you want them to adapt? Mind you, I'm not saying the show doesn't have flaws... the comic had (and has) flaws too... but if the suggestion is to stray from Kirkman's vision, then I'm saying there's no point in it being the Walking Dead TV show. Z-Nation is a TV series on SyFy about zombies not helmed or guided by Robert Kirkman. There's one option to go watch a zombie-theme show that isn't guided by the comic or Kirkman. Why ask Kirkman to abandon his show or for AMC to try and kick Kirkman to the curb? IF you don't like the show, it's fair to not watch or to critique it for sure... but I'm just saying that the Walking Dead is Kirkman and Kirkman is the Walking Dead. Trying to separate those makes no sense to me.

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I understand the mechanics of it. People keep posting things like "Well Kirkman said....". Yes, everyone knows that. That's not the point. This show isn't headed anywhere good right now but they are at the point where it's still savable.Unfortunately, AMC seems determined to ride the bomb all the way down like Slim Pickens.

I don't know. Something about this last episode with the Romulan chick and her "Death by Snu Snu" speech patterns really shook me out of any remaining suspension of disbelief that I had. Governor, Claimers, Termites, Wolves, Negan, Kingdom, the all girl squad, and now the trash heap cavemen. Feels like I'm getting hit over the head with the same stick. It may work in the comic world, but its not working here.

People can hold up ratings all they want, but just look at this thread. When a new episode dropped, we would burn 3 to 5 pages on it. There isn't much more than that for the whole season. I've been with the show since the first episode and loved everything about it. Just feels like were being punked now. I'm not a Chris Hardwick fan but I've actually been feeling bad for him. Trying to get "UP" for an hour with this version of the show has got to be tough.
I wouldn't judge the conversation in this forum for how popular a show is... There are lots of shows I watch and I don't talk about them at all online. This forum doesn't have active threads for most TV shows. There are some shows I watch (NCIS and Supernatural for example) that have been on for more than 10 years and show every sign of continuing for more... and those discussion threads are VERY vacant.

Also, the Walking Dead is in its 7th season, right? Not a lot of shows last that long... so IF it does start to see a decline, that would be the normal course of most TV shows. They also still have not caught up to what the comic has done so they have plenty of miles left to run IF they want to keep going. I feel like unless we have our own real-life apocalypse, this show is probably going for at least 2-3 more years... and people will complain during that time, but it will keep trekking along.
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:41 PM
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I think season 7 has had the lowest viewership since season 3 so it is in a decline. I'm just going to go ahead and say it folks: Season 7 suuucccks!. It's gone from bad to worse episode after episode. The characters/plots are just downright silly. What happened? I guess this is what happens when you base a show off a comic book but I had high hopes because the stories were set in a real world sense. This new character Lady Junk Yard Dog or whatever, like she's from another time like the middle ages, I mean are we really supposed to fall for this? How long has civilization fallen? It's still less than one generation.
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Old 02-24-2017, 04:11 AM
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But to what would you want them to adapt? Mind you, I'm not saying the show doesn't have flaws... the comic had (and has) flaws too... but if the suggestion is to stray from Kirkman's vision, then I'm saying there's no point in it being the Walking Dead TV show. Z-Nation is a TV series on SyFy about zombies not helmed or guided by Robert Kirkman. There's one option to go watch a zombie-theme show that isn't guided by the comic or Kirkman. Why ask Kirkman to abandon his show or for AMC to try and kick Kirkman to the curb? IF you don't like the show, it's fair to not watch or to critique it for sure... but I'm just saying that the Walking Dead is Kirkman and Kirkman is the Walking Dead. Trying to separate those makes no sense to me.
Like I have said before, since it is a TV medium, it would have to change. People become WAYYYYY more invested in on-screen characters then they do in a comic book. You see them week after week (not a smaller audience on a monthly graphic novel). They would need to have the untouchable list, like the main characters that will not be killed. They can be tight situations, other outlying characters can die (once in a while) but to make an audience member love a character and be a massive fan only to yank that away from them over and over and over again, people are going to say, forget it, why bother. Bad things can happen, they can get in bad situations, loose a lot of stuff, etc. it doesn't have to be all perfect and they can't do wrong, but you can't ram this down people's throat time and time again. Why invest your time if that person is going to die? People will, and have, tune out. The show has to adapt and show them struggling, winning, struggling, perhaps loosing, etc. but not to the point of the brutality and the huge number of character deaths as this show has.

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Old 02-25-2017, 01:15 AM
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Like I have said before, since it is a TV medium, it would have to change. People become WAYYYYY more invested in on-screen characters then they do in a comic book. You see them week after week (not a smaller audience on a monthly graphic novel). They would need to have the untouchable list, like the main characters that will not be killed. They can be tight situations, other outlying characters can die (once in a while) but to make an audience member love a character and be a massive fan only to yank that away from them over and over and over again, people are going to say, forget it, why bother. Bad things can happen, they can get in bad situations, loose a lot of stuff, etc. it doesn't have to be all perfect and they can't do wrong, but you can't ram this down people's throat time and time again. Why invest your time if that person is going to die? People will, and have, tune out. The show has to adapt and show them struggling, winning, struggling, perhaps loosing, etc. but not to the point of the brutality and the huge number of character deaths as this show has.
I beg to disagree on the "untouchable" front. That is what is wrong with quite many shows, and it leads to disjointed and uninteresting writing. On a show that has an untouchable lead, IF they put that lead in mortal danger, it is completely uninteresting to me because I know he isn't going to die. When you know the character is untouchable, there is no real danger, and the plot-point becomes far less interesting.

That said... for the most part, Rick is untouchable. He was the first character shown in the comic... mostly the first character shown on TV too. It's really told from his point of view pretty much. So, Rick is about as untouchable as it gets on this show. I find the show much more interesting when it puts other people in peril, because you know they might be ready to write that character off the show. They haven't followed the comics exactly, so there have been some surprises... even characters dead on the show AND dead in the comics didn't necessarily die in the same way or at the same time on the show.

Joss Whedon famously introduced a character or two on Buffy and Angel back in the day with the expressed intent of getting people to like them and then killing them off. He said something along the lines of IF it bothered you when he had those characters killed off, then he did his job. Killing a character you don't care about is meaningless... but killing one you care about, makes an impact. That's storytelling. It's actually one of the stronger things about the Walking Dead. Knowing that they might kill a character you like and you might not see it coming, especially if you haven't read the comics to be expecting it.
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Old 02-25-2017, 08:30 PM
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I don't think it's dying, it's in mid to late middle age ..

From the ratings chart, you can see the show has peaked. Except for the premiere and the anticipation of Negan, this season is down. All long running shows behave this way. It is a bell curve. You put on a good series and the word gets out. More and more people tune in and the ratings go up to a point. After a few seasons, people tire of the series and begin to drop off. I have watched the series from the beginning and am not as excited to see a new episode as I once was. I feel it has more of the same. I was hoping for a new direction with Negan being introduced as were others based on the ratings, but there just was not enough there to gain more viewers or even keep them all coming back. The ratings are still good and it will probably last at least a couple more seasons but the end is in sight.
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Old 02-25-2017, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It's actually one of the stronger things about the Walking Dead. Knowing that they might kill a character you like and you might not see it coming, especially if you haven't read the comics to be expecting it.
That concept breaks down though when you don't care about any of the characters. Just having a main role isn't enough to justify an emotional investment. Even at this late stage in the show there have rarely been any characters that have evolved beyond being annoying zombie fodder. Joss Whedon's strength has always been in character development and he could introduce someone on the show and within the space of a couple of episodes make them memorable and charismatic enough that losing them would be a loss.

Kirkman isn't even close. Even when he has season after season to work on them most of the characters on the show usually stay forgettable, annoying or just badly drawn. In the case of the bad guys they are literally cartoon villains with no more depth than the actual drawings they come from.
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Old 02-26-2017, 12:36 AM
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That concept breaks down though when you don't care about any of the characters. Just having a main role isn't enough to justify an emotional investment. Even at this late stage in the show there have rarely been any characters that have evolved beyond being annoying zombie fodder. Joss Whedon's strength has always been in character development and he could introduce someone on the show and within the space of a couple of episodes make them memorable and charismatic enough that losing them would be a loss.

Kirkman isn't even close. Even when he has season after season to work on them most of the characters on the show usually stay forgettable, annoying or just badly drawn. In the case of the bad guys they are literally cartoon villains with no more depth than the actual drawings they come from.
You've nailed it, though. People complain they want more zombies or want to search for a cure or want "untouchable" characters or want the show to stray from Kirkman's vision in some way... but the reality is, the flaw is in the implementation NOT the concept.

I agree... where they fall short is in making some of these characters three-dimensional enough to really care about. Rick is the focus... Daryl got a lot of character development early... and Carol has had a really long arc of development. Morgan has bits of character development as well. But everyone else? I'm not sure anyone else is really a fully fleshed out character... which is why it's harder to care about most of them.

They don't need to change the focus or the themes of the show... they just need to execute those themes better.
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Old 02-26-2017, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You've nailed it, though. People complain they want more zombies or want to search for a cure or want "untouchable" characters or want the show to stray from Kirkman's vision in some way... but the reality is, the flaw is in the implementation NOT the concept.

I agree... where they fall short is in making some of these characters three-dimensional enough to really care about. Rick is the focus... Daryl got a lot of character development early... and Carol has had a really long arc of development. Morgan has bits of character development as well. But everyone else? I'm not sure anyone else is really a fully fleshed out character... which is why it's harder to care about most of them.

They don't need to change the focus or the themes of the show... they just need to execute those themes better.
I don't think the carousel of showrunners has helped either. I think nearly all of the best and most colorful characters originated in the first season with Darabont and a few memorable characters introduced later. The later showrunners failed to capitalize on the first season characters too. Andrea became a first class idiot and damsel in distress and T- Dog was so pointless most weeks that he didn't even need to be on the show. His death was only memorable in that it happened to a character that was ironically completely forgettable.


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Old 02-26-2017, 07:33 AM
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No the problem isn't execution.

It's that they're stuck in the same rut of one villainous group after another.

Rick's gang will eventually overcome and some characters may have some crises of conscience about it but they go to killer machine mode whenever they need to.

No matter how badass though, in dog eat dog world as depicted, eventually everyone gets defeated. They simply can't sustain a life taking out other survivor groups for very long. That was the lesson of The Wire, Avon and Stringer thought they could be forever but Marlo took over and he'll eventually be defeated too.

But Kirkham and AMC want to keep the gravy train going indefinitely.

That's fine, just break the monotony.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:37 AM
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Even when main characters are "invincible" in the sense that they won't be killed, nasty, permanent things can happen to them -- like Carl losing his eye, or Rick losing his...

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Old 02-26-2017, 09:32 AM
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negan is a great villian
rotflmao.
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:07 PM
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Whether it's gone downhill or not I still think the recent freeway Walkers mow down was the show's highpoint.
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:14 PM
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It did look good, especially the wide shot which was CGI.

Really wouldn't work though as you have to keep the line really taut so the cars would have to go at the same speed. If one of the car gets slowed down as it runs over bodies of walkers, then there would be slack in the line and it wouldn't cut up the bodies.
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Old 02-26-2017, 05:00 PM
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No the problem isn't execution.

It's that they're stuck in the same rut of one villainous group after another.

Rick's gang will eventually overcome and some characters may have some crises of conscience about it but they go to killer machine mode whenever they need to.

No matter how badass though, in dog eat dog world as depicted, eventually everyone gets defeated. They simply can't sustain a life taking out other survivor groups for very long. That was the lesson of The Wire, Avon and Stringer thought they could be forever but Marlo took over and he'll eventually be defeated too.

But Kirkham and AMC want to keep the gravy train going indefinitely.

That's fine, just break the monotony.

+1 here. Even if character development becomes better, fighting the bad guy group of the week/month/year becomes less interesting to watch for me. And above all, THAT is what I care about - how interesting and enjoyable is the show. IMO getting out of the rinse, repeat bad guy narrative - at least for a while - would go a long way...
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Old 02-26-2017, 05:51 PM
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+1 here. Even if character development becomes better, fighting the bad guy group of the week/month/year becomes less interesting to watch for me. And above all, THAT is what I care about - how interesting and enjoyable is the show. IMO getting out of the rinse, repeat bad guy narrative - at least for a while - would go a long way...
True. Have you noticed the most positive comments in the last few episodes were mowing down the walkers with the cable, the walkers coming out of the sand and Tara's boobs bouncing as she ran.
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Old 02-26-2017, 06:04 PM
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True. Have you noticed the most positive comments in the last few episodes were mowing down the walkers with the cable, the walkers coming out of the sand and Tara's boobs bouncing as she ran.
Don't forget about Winston. He was pretty cool. But it's hard to beat bouncing boobs.
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Old 02-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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Another scene to get us talking. Eugene's foaming flask. The rest of the episode was pretty forgettable.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:08 PM
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Don't forget about Winston. He was pretty cool. But it's hard to beat bouncing boobs.

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Old 02-27-2017, 05:21 AM
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Another forgettable episode IMO. Eugene is Neegan, yay ..
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:45 AM
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Considering this season as a whole, I thought the Eugene episode was pretty good .. the side plot to kill Negan, expansion on Eugene character, Dr. gets roasted, Dwight and the ambiguity of his real feelings toward Negan and his love for Sherry ..
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:59 AM
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I fast forwarded a lot this week. Meh. I don't care about Eugene and never have.
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