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post #181 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 12:31 PM
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I think that was just showing his thought process, much like they show Sherlock's mind working


Agreed, people in my household were thinking at first it was the glasses(as Sherlock did also) and after Sherlock proved that wrong by looking though the glasses they thought it was contacts, at that point I thought what you did, that is they were just showing his thought process.

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post #182 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 12:51 PM
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The way they showed it at first, with Magnussen and the glasses... they left it open to interpretation either way. The thing that really was only touched upon with subtext... it was Sherlock's own arrogance that failed him in that deduction. Sherlock considers himself above everyone else... with the exception of Mycroft, Sherlock always considers without a doubt that he is by far the smartest man in the room... so he never would have considered the idea of Magnussen having a mind palace... thus, he never would have solved that particular problem without Magnussen admitting to it. That's good subtle storytelling in the moment where you realize that Sherlock himself realizes that is a flaw he cannot overcome. He will never consider anyone to be his equal, so he will always miss something IF he encounters someone who is.

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post #183 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

I think that was just showing his thought process, much like they show Sherlock's mind working

Yes, this. Magnussen's memory was very photographic - he even described it as "making pictures" of the data. There are people like that with what's known clinically as Superior Autobiographical Memory, also known as Hyperthymesia, who retain nearly everything that ever happens to them. This guy was one of those folks. Sherlock likely is as well, although his deduction and analytic capacity is really what makes him special, and what likely separates him from people like Magnussen.
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post #184 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 01:32 PM
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Good call, guys. I agree with your explanation. Next time I watch season 3, I definitely want to pause those moments and see what he was thinking. Quite a few shots were very fast...only enough time to read one line or so. I think it'll be interesting.
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post #185 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 01:47 PM
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My big problem with Magnussen was that he was a caricature of a bad guy. If the guy hadn't licked the lady's face, flicked (this was gawdawful stupid) Watson's face, or urinated in the fireplace, who would give a crap about him? Lazy writing.

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post #186 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 01:56 PM
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My big problem with Magnussen was that he was a caricature of a bad guy. If the guy hadn't licked the lady's face, flicked (this was gawdawful stupid) Watson's face, or urinated in the fireplace, who would give a crap about him? Lazy writing.

I think there was method to that madness. They had to make Magnussen more than just a mere super-smart supervillain. They had to make him super unsavory and unappealing as well. We had to really hate the guy. Why? Because Sherlock was going to kill this man in cold blood, and that's something we thought we'd never see Sherlock do.
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post #187 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 02:14 PM
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I think there was method to that madness. They had to make Magnussen more than just a mere super-smart supervillain. They had to make him super unsavory and unappealing as well. We had to really hate the guy. Why? Because Sherlock was going to kill this man in cold blood, and that's something we thought we'd never see Sherlock do.

Which is why it doesn't work. They went out of their way to make sure we knew Magnussen wasn't a villain. But they gave him the mannerisms of a petty bully. And it was okay for the audience to allow Sherlock to kill him. Why? Because he was smarter than Sherlock? Because he flicked Watson's face?

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #188 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 02:43 PM
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Which is why it doesn't work. They went out of their way to make sure we knew Magnussen wasn't a villain.

Say what? He was blackmailing government officials, among others. Sherlock described him as the "world's greatest blackmailer" or something similar. That kind of makes him a villain, and one worthy of Sherlock's time.
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post #189 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 03:59 PM
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Say what? He was blackmailing government officials, among others. Sherlock described him as the "world's greatest blackmailer" or something similar. That kind of makes him a villain, and one worthy of Sherlock's time.

Sigh. He was just a lobbyist using ridiculous blackmail techniques. Really? Saucy letters are going to be leverage? He didn't have any world domination ideals. He was a playground bully taking lunch money and giving wedgies. Mycroft told Sherlock to keep away and that the guy had his uses.

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post #190 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 04:11 PM
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And it was okay for the audience to allow Sherlock to kill him. Why? [...] Because he flicked Watson's face?

Exactly. If there's one thing Sherlock Holmes will not stand for, it's people invading John's personal space. biggrin.gif

Seriously, though, I'd say Sherlock killed him for two reasons. Firstly, he wanted to reduce the implications that John had helped him, since he had just committed treason by handing state secrets over to a known blackmailer. Killing Magnussen in front of so many witnesses shifted the perception of his crime from "Look what Sherlock and John have done now," to "Look what Sherlock has dragged John into this time." In that way, it became more likely that only Sherlock would be punished, and John could continue to live his life. Secondly, he wanted to fulfill the mission he set out to accomplish, which was to clear Mary's name. Killing Magnussen was the only way to accomplish that, so he achieved his goal.
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post #191 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 04:46 PM
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I think the point of the flicking, licking, and peeing in the fireplace was to show how despicable the guy was. Without showing those aspects, he was just a blackmailer... What makes him worse than another blackmailer? Say, Irene Adler? She was essentially doing exactly the same thing as Magnussen with regards to acquiring knowledge of people's secrets and leveraging them to her own benefit.

The difference... Ms Adler wasn't out to embarrass or diminish anyone... she was self-protecting by gathering the info. Magnussen would rub your nose in it... and not only make you do what he wanted "or else" but he would stay and diminish you in the process. He would essentially make you say "please sir, may I have another"... and that was what made him despicable.

I thought it was a clever way to quickly show you the depths of his character without having to draw it out too much.

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post #192 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 04:50 PM
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He also tried to frak with Sherlock by attempting to kill Watson. In fact, we only have his word that he never would have let John burn - Sherlock just managed to save him in the nick of time. The guy fits my definition of a villainous chap; others may be more charitable.
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post #193 of 260 Old 02-05-2014, 08:41 PM
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I think there was method to that madness. They had to make Magnussen more than just a mere super-smart supervillain. They had to make him super unsavory and unappealing as well. We had to really hate the guy. Why? Because Sherlock was going to kill this man in cold blood, and that's something we thought we'd never see Sherlock do.

Exactly! Magnussen had to be portrayed as an unspeakably awful human being in order to make palatable Sherlock's killing him in cold blood. Because of the setup, I really enjoyed seeing Sherlock deliver the coups de grace to that awful, awful man. I can't see how the cold blooded murder scene could have been made anything but off-putting any other way.
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post #194 of 260 Old 02-06-2014, 03:15 PM
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I personally didn't need any of the peeing, flicking, or licking. The title of the episode says it all: his last vow. Sherlock swore to protect Mary, John, and the baby. As long as Mary's secret was with Magnussen, they would not be safe. Sherlock made sure the information was only in Magnussen's head then eliminated the data the only way possible. The fulfilled his vow and by that action it would be his last. Was Magnussen not bad enough in this regard? Is that not enough moral justification (if there is such a thing for murder)?
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post #195 of 260 Old 02-06-2014, 04:35 PM
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I personally didn't need any of the peeing, flicking, or licking. The title of the episode says it all: his last vow. Sherlock swore to protect Mary, John, and the baby. As long as Mary's secret was with Magnussen, they would not be safe. Sherlock made sure the information was only in Magnussen's head then eliminated the data the only way possible. The fulfilled his vow and by that action it would be his last. Was Magnussen not bad enough in this regard? Is that not enough moral justification (if there is such a thing for murder)?

Protect them from what? Magnussen said that the whole point was to use Mary's background to get at Watson so he could get at Sherlock to get at Mycroft. Since Watson was now aware of Mary's past, Magnussen couldn't use it as leverage against Watson anymore. As I mentioned before, a lot of Magnussen's supposed leverage was just poppycock crap that any real person would just say f-you to.

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post #196 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 11:04 AM
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Not a great season. I thought the second show was the most interesting (John & Mary's wedding) but even that was like one of the comic relief shows that long-running series have every now and again to break up the rhythm.

Totally agree, didn't really like any of the episodes this season although the second one had a lot of good moments. I cannot get around the gaping plot hole of this episode's saying Mary purposely wounded Sherlock and didn't want to kill him. Sherlock was shown flat lining and having a near death experience which obviously contradicts that. I also don't see why Sherlock was punished so harshly at the end, you're telling me the government wouldn't cover up a murder of a despicable person by someone who had just stopped a terrorist plot the week before? And if they bring Moriarty back, that would be the end for me. Dead should be dead, I forgave Sherlock coming back since that was in the stories but Moriarty coming back is a bridge too far for me. Even though I thought him killing himself was extremely stupid and out of character when it happened last season.
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post #197 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 11:47 AM
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Well I'm just trying to talk through why people are generally more down on this season. I thought it was great to get something else this season... that was more character driven, while the mysteries and suspense took a backseat. My least favorite--though I liked them all--was the second because it seemed to drag too long.
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post #198 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 12:12 PM
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Well I'm just trying to talk through why people are generally more down on this season. I thought it was great to get something else this season... that was more character driven, while the mysteries and suspense took a backseat.

I liked the season too, although to be honest, Sherlock killing somebody in cold blood came really close to ruining it for me. I feel like it is pretty weak story telling that if Sherlock can't beat somebody intellectually, he'll resort to the same violent tactics as any common criminal. I would have vastly proffered that Mycroft, Mary, or John did the killing. I would have enjoyed it much more if John had ended the 'flicking' by shooting Magnussen on the spot. I felt like they were setting up that kind of swift violent reaction early in the ep when they showed John taking down the guy at the crackhouse. It felt wholly out of place coming from Sherlock.
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post #199 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 12:18 PM
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As I mentioned before, a lot of Magnussen's supposed leverage was just poppycock crap that any real person would just say f-you to.

Would a real person say that though? Or would they be so afraid of their secrets being revealed they act illogically? Look at the political scandals we have lived through...was Nixon brought down by the Watergate incident, or the coverup? That was the source of Magnussen's power-the fear he could inspire. All the peeing, flicking, licking, was just a way to increase that fear. By acting like he had unlimited power he made his victims believe he actually did have control over them. That is why Sherlock despised him and was determined to destroy him. My take on it, anyways.

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post #200 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 02:02 PM
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And if they bring Moriarty back, that would be the end for me. Dead should be dead, I forgave Sherlock coming back since that was in the stories but Moriarty coming back is a bridge too far for me. Even though I thought him killing himself was extremely stupid and out of character when it happened last season.

Well, now you know he must have faked it, like Sherlock, so it wasn't stupid and out of character. So, while you technically must forgive Moriarty for not being dead, you're still out because...um...he's not dead. Quite a conundrum.
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post #201 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 02:26 PM
 
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And if they bring Moriarty back, that would be the end for me. Dead should be dead, I forgave Sherlock coming back since that was in the stories but Moriarty coming back is a bridge too far for me. Even though I thought him killing himself was extremely stupid and out of character when it happened last season.

Yes.
I am diappointed that there isn't a baseline of reality so that real things, real events, have real meaning.
For me the stronger the baseline of reality, the more impact the intelligent twists and turns have for me.
I don't like it when I have to rationalize too much after a viewing.
And Sherlock does not stoop to the level of his adversaries (when all is said and done.) Or, should not. His mind is more powerful than any other "device". At least, that idea is the what I have found to be the driving force in this series, up to now.

For me Smart trumps Clever. (Even if clever "wins".)
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post #202 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 04:04 PM
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Maybe you're all missing the bigger point from the last two series: Sherlock jumped off a building and didn't die, and Moriarty shot himself in the head and didn't die, so as far as this show is concerned, Sherlock could have shot Magnussen without killing him. tongue.gif It's all part of the master plan, and after Moriarty dies a second time at the end of series four, Magnussen will reveal himself to set up the villain for series five. rolleyes.gif
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post #203 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 04:06 PM
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Watched my BD of Episodes 2 and 3 again today and loved seeing them again. Episode 3 was particular fun. I confess, I liked seeing Sherlock shoot and kill Magnussen. So much time was taken in showing us how ruthless and awful the guy was and how miserable he had made the lives of his victims, I nearly cheered when Sherlock did the deed. As Mycroft said, sometimes you need people like Sherlock to do what needs to be done. When I watched the evil Magnussen's machinations, I thought, fairly or not, of Rupert Murdoch. Don't know what it is about powerful media lords, especially conservative ones, that engenders so much hatred but there it is.
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post #204 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 04:07 PM
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Well, now you know he must have faked it, like Sherlock, so it wasn't stupid and out of character. So, while you technically must forgive Moriarty for not being dead, you're still out because...um...he's not dead. Quite a conundrum.

Lol quite true I am in a dilemma to be sure! The problem is when dead stops being dead, the dramatic impact of anything is lessened and I stop taking the show seriously at that point. The death of any major character should be a big event but now anytime a character is in danger or even appears dead, I just think oh they'll come back later. If Moriarty really comes back, I think this show officially veers into soap opera territory if it's not there already. I can only hope that there is some crazy posthumous plot going on that he dreamed up.
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post #205 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 05:42 PM
 
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Lol quite true I am in a dilemma to be sure! The problem is when dead stops being dead, the dramatic impact of anything is lessened and I stop taking the show seriously at that point. The death of any major character should be a big event but now anytime a character is in danger or even appears dead, I just think oh they'll come back later. If Moriarty really comes back, I think this show officially veers into soap opera territory if it's not there already. I can only hope that there is some crazy posthumous plot going on that he dreamed up.
Yes. The word "gravitas" comes to mind as that which becomes the missing element with everyone popping back up like the clown with the sand weighted shoes.
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post #206 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 05:48 PM
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Lol quite true I am in a dilemma to be sure! The problem is when dead stops being dead, the dramatic impact of anything is lessened and I stop taking the show seriously at that point. The death of any major character should be a big event but now anytime a character is in danger or even appears dead, I just think oh they'll come back later. If Moriarty really comes back, I think this show officially veers into soap opera territory if it's not there already. I can only hope that there is some crazy posthumous plot going on that he dreamed up.

This reminds me of the original Planet of the Apes... follow along.

The story goes that nobody really wanted to do a sequel, but the studio wanted one... the studio also wanted Heston to reprise his role, but Heston had only agreed to the first movie with the caveat that he didn't want to do a sequel!

So... after a bunch of stuff, Heston agrees to do a sequel IF they kill him in it so that they couldn't come back and ask him again. The producers didn't want to do another sequel either... so they not only kill Heston but blow up the earth! They thought surely no sequels after that... but of course it made money and the studio wanted more... and the rest is history.

The point being... there will always be a way to bring characters back if they really want to.

I remember a soap opera my mother used to watch... had a bad guy who died... then came back... then died again... THEN his ghost came back and haunted people... and then the character came back... never bothered to explain how his ghost was haunting earlier when he wasn't dead... smile.gif

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post #207 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 05:53 PM
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This reminds me of the original Planet of the Apes... follow along.

The story goes that nobody really wanted to do a sequel, but the studio wanted one... the studio also wanted Heston to reprise his role, but Heston had only agreed to the first movie with the caveat that he didn't want to do a sequel!

So... after a bunch of stuff, Heston agrees to do a sequel IF they kill him in it so that they couldn't come back and ask him again. The producers didn't want to do another sequel either... so they not only kill Heston but blow up the earth! They thought surely no sequels after that... but of course it made money and the studio wanted more... and the rest is history.

Supposedly the same thing happened with Spock in the Wrath of Khan, Nimoy wanted to be killed off and was but the movie was such a success that the studio bribed him to come back. I hated that then and if Moriarty comes back, I still hate this kind of thing now.
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post #208 of 260 Old 02-07-2014, 11:43 PM
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Well, Sherlock's not being dead should not be a surprise as Doyle wrote that so very long ago. THAT should have been a given. We still don't know if Moriarty is back, or if someone else just hijacked the media and put that clip of him out.

When I watched the show on PBS in high def, I was appalled at the pixilation and general poor video quality, especially episode two, when the flower petals were strewn into the air at the wedding. The picture was completely lost in video noise. At that point, I purchased the BR disks which just showed up. The difference in quality is incredible. I can only conclude that the PBS station in the LA area is broadcasting so many sub channels that there is insufficient bandwidth for a show like this. If there was ever a showcase issue for the value of BR disks, this was it!

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Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #209 of 260 Old 02-08-2014, 01:45 PM
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Well, Sherlock's not being dead should not be a surprise as Doyle wrote that so very long ago. THAT should have been a given. We still don't know if Moriarty is back, or if someone else just hijacked the media and put that clip of him out.

You are exactly right about Doyle first killing Sherlock off and then resurrecting him. There was so much outcry over the "death" of Holmes, that Doyle listened resurrected him in The Return of Sherlock Holmes
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When I watched the show on PBS in high def, I was appalled at the pixilation and general poor video quality, especially episode two, when the flower petals were strewn into the air at the wedding. The picture was completely lost in video noise. At that point, I purchased the BR disks which just showed up. The difference in quality is incredible. I can only conclude that the PBS station in the LA area is broadcasting so many sub channels that there is insufficient bandwidth for a show like this. If there was ever a showcase issue for the value of BR disks, this was it!

You make me glad I bought the Series 3 BDs from Amazon UK. Not surprisingly, they looked wonderful, nowhere more so than in the scene featuring the flower petals in the air after Watson and Mary's wedding. By the way, was pleased to learn that my Series 3 BDs aren't Region B only,as I had originally thought; they are universal as were the Series 1 and 2 BDs from Amazon UK.
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post #210 of 260 Old 02-08-2014, 03:18 PM
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I have never understood the whole thing about region-coding DVD/BD's. Makes no sense to me. You'd think content creators and distributors would want their stuff to play all over the world, to engage the most potential customers possible.
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