"Sherlock" Series on PBS Masterpiece Mystery - Page 9 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #241 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 06:08 PM
 
Cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Northwest Boonies
Posts: 5,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

With all due respect, I don't think this is it at all. It is a television show so the morality of the killing is barely on the radar. The question is the internal consistency of the show. Sherlock is a character that lives by his wits and the shooting of Magnussen seems totally out of character for him. I understand that his supposed motivation was protecting John and Mary but I didn't think many things added up. First, Mary's supposed shoot "not to kill" of Sherlock was pretty lucky that it didn't kill him. This argument that Mary only tried to wound Sherlock is pretty much a stretch. Second, the question of whether the Watson's were in any danger from Magnussen is something I have set forth in earlier posts and I don't believe that Magnussen was any real threat. Third, the idea that Magnussen was an evil man was sketchy and silly. To have him personally bully people by, for example, flicking Watson's face was as lame as I could think of. The only thing called for at the time was Watson punching Magnussen out. The guy wasn't worth the trouble of shooting him. Sherlock gets out witted and out smarted by Magnussen and his response is to shoot him?

Reminds me of movies where the hero (after eschewing such violence) whips out a gun and completely becomes a hypocrite. Several come to mind. The most obscure one is Ralph Bakshi's Wizards. You can look at Batman (both Burton and Nolan's versions) where Batman who isn't supposed to kill, does it at the end of each movie (Nolan's with a "I don't have to save you" BS). The recent Superman as well. These are just crowd pleasing tropes that represent laziness.
+1.
Thanks for your words. Your last paragraph is a breath of fresh air.

Sherlock outwits. That is the point.
Cyrano is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #242 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 06:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Aleron Ives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

Sherlock outwits. That is the point.

You'd almost think series 3 was made by an American network, not the BBC. Now Sherlock outguns his adversaries. rolleyes.gif
Aleron Ives is offline  
post #243 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 06:41 PM
 
Cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Northwest Boonies
Posts: 5,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

You'd almost think series 3 was made by an American network, not the BBC. Now Sherlock outguns his adversaries. rolleyes.gif

There seems to be some sensibility in our culture that ultimately the only real solution is always the visceral one.
I have things I would like to write about our culture and violence and intelligence and so on, but well, just watch the nightly news.
Cyrano is offline  
post #244 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 07:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
archiguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 17,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 547
I agree that it wasn't in character for Sherlock to shoot Magnussen. That was quite a risk for Moffit to take as it fundamentally changes the character. Should have figured out a way to outwit him.
archiguy is offline  
post #245 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 08:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cwilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Ben Lomond CA USA
Posts: 1,785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

With all due respect, I don't think this is it at all. It is a television show so the morality of the killing is barely on the radar. The question is the internal consistency of the show. Sherlock is a character that lives by his wits and the shooting of Magnussen seems totally out of character for him. I understand that his supposed motivation was protecting John and Mary but I didn't think many things added up. First, Mary's supposed shoot "not to kill" of Sherlock was pretty lucky that it didn't kill him. This argument that Mary only tried to wound Sherlock is pretty much a stretch. Second, the question of whether the Watson's were in any danger from Magnussen is something I have set forth in earlier posts and I don't believe that Magnussen was any real threat. Third, the idea that Magnussen was an evil man was sketchy and silly. To have him personally bully people by, for example, flicking Watson's face was as lame as I could think of. The only thing called for at the time was Watson punching Magnussen out. The guy wasn't worth the trouble of shooting him. Sherlock gets out witted and out smarted by Magnussen and his response is to shoot him?

Reminds me of movies where the hero (after eschewing such violence) whips out a gun and completely becomes a hypocrite. Several come to mind. The most obscure one is Ralph Bakshi's Wizards. You can look at Batman (both Burton and Nolan's versions) where Batman who isn't supposed to kill, does it at the end of each movie (Nolan's with a "I don't have to save you" BS). The recent Superman as well. These are just crowd pleasing tropes that represent laziness.

Ah - you don't believe that people get caught up in the morality of what characters on screen do? That's part of the fun, and we do so all the time. Sherlock's motivation was that the only way to destroy the evidence was to destroy the memory palace. And of course Magnussen was an evil man, and dangerous. He ruined lives, for fun.

As to the specifics of the plotting, there are of course some major holes, but this particular series is played for fun and imagination and surprise, not for absolute fidelity to reality. And I feel that it succeeded, simply because there was so much creativity in the story line. Obviously Mary couldn't be sure Sherlock's wound wouldn't be fatal; completely unbelievable, but as you said, this is a television show. If you're looking for total logic, you've come to the wrong program. Of course the urination and slaps were intended to make us loathe Magnussen; we were all aware that we were being manipulated, and didn't mind. Each of us has to decide whether the suspension of reality required of us is too much, or not.
cwilson is offline  
post #246 of 260 Old 02-16-2014, 09:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Church AV Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: High Desert, California
Posts: 4,536
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I don't see Holmes' shooting of Magnussen as out of character. He has said on more than one occasion that he is a high functioning sociopath. Murder is well within the character of a sociopath. It may not be in the perception of your opinion of Holmes, but he has said this about himself.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
Church AV Guy is offline  
post #247 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 07:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CANNON-FODDER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 1,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I don't see Holmes' shooting of Magnussen as out of character. He has said on more than one occasion that he is a high functioning sociopath. Murder is well within the character of a sociopath. It may not be in the perception of your opinion of Holmes, but he has said this about himself.

However, being a sociopath does not mean being brutal or violent. It would have been far more within the scope of the character to callously, but elegantly, cause the death of Magnussen through his wits, as Daryl stated before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

... The question is the internal consistency of the show. Sherlock is a character that lives by his wits and the shooting of Magnussen seems totally out of character for him. ... Sherlock gets out witted and out smarted by Magnussen and his response is to shoot him?...

I think that it would have been much better for the ending we saw to have been shot [ha!], but not released. Then, the next series could play out the story of how Sherlock orchestrated the suicide/murder in the background with some tension. And, if that season was not commissioned, the shown ending would be ready to release and resolve the hanging thread.

v/r,
C-F
CANNON-FODDER is offline  
post #248 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 10:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDMe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kittrell, NC
Posts: 5,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 98
On the morality front... I see a distinction here that I don't know if everyone does.

When I watch a show like this... I don't impose my own morality on the characters... So... was it "right" for Sherlock to kill Magnussen like that? IF it were me, I would not be as quick to do that... pull that trigger... I don't know what I would do in that exact situation, but I don't think I would do that... but that is me.

The way the series and the episode evolved, it felt like it made sense to Sherlock at that point... so within the confines of the show... it made sense for Sherlock to come to that conclusion at that point.

Yeah baby!  It's Halloween!
HDMe2 is offline  
post #249 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 11:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
archiguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 17,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 547
It just occured to me, from a devil's advocate point of view, that perhaps Sherlock decided he had to kill Magnussen because only he might have been able to get away with it, while John and Mary could not. He knew his brother had a "suicide mission" in mind for him that would enable his crime to be essentially pardoned in the interest of national security. Killing Magnussen was the only way to keep Mary out of prison and John from suffering her loss. Sherlock had vowed to protect them. It was the only way to keep that vow; there were no other moves to play.

Of course, I wish there had been another move to play, one that would have outwitted the bad guy instead of offing him. And I fault Moffit & Co. for not being clever enough to think of one.
archiguy is offline  
post #250 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 11:43 AM
 
Cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Northwest Boonies
Posts: 5,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Had not Magnussen become rather impotent in actuality once it became evident that his value was more along the lines of a "National Enquirer" once Sherlock and John realized the evidence was all carried in his brain?

It seems as though the decision to have Sherlock do something that would have him banished was mostly a plot device so that it would require an extraordinary occurrence to bring him back. So Moriarity who shot himself pretty convincingly and apparently was thrown off a building is back for more rapscallion derring-do.

I really do get more involved when certain lines of reality (expectations) are adhered to. The lines are not rigid, but a film does well to establish its boundaries, its own rules, and then make everything, however incredible, work within them.

And as for Sherlock needing to behave like we would behave, that isn't my problem with his solution. I just was digging it when his mind would always triumph over matter. It was so satisfying.

Just thoughts...
Cyrano is offline  
post #251 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 02:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 406
The primary reason Sherlock's decision to kill Magnussen didn't bother me (other than that Magnussen was a guy who needed killin') was what has been brought up over and over again in the show: Sherlock is a high functioning sociopath. He acts according to his own standards without a moment's concern.

I think what worried Sherlock most about Magnussen, even after he learned that all the dirt was in Magnussen's "Mind Palace," was that the dirt Magnussen threatened to dish on Mary was also true. Sherlock understood this placed Mary and John in an untenable situation, so Sherlock solved the problem permanently. His decision was made easier, of course, because he had made a commitment to protect John and Mary.
gwsat is offline  
post #252 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 03:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Aleron Ives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Killing Magnussen was the only way to keep Mary out of prison and John from suffering her loss. Sherlock had vowed to protect them. It was the only way to keep that vow; there were no other moves to play.

I guess this is the part that I don't quite grasp. Why was Mary in danger? As I understood it, Magnussen used Mary to get to John to get to Sherlock to get to Mycroft, so that he could get his hands on the state secrets contained in the laptop. He got the laptop, so why would he have have then chosen to still expose Mary?

As far as we know, he only uses blackmail to achieve his goals, and it wouldn't make sense for him to ruin somebody anyway after getting what he wanted, since that would be a "waste" of an informant he could blackmail again in the future. Yes, killing him prevented him from changing his mind and blackmailing Mary again later, but the imminent danger had already been averted, which made Sherlock's choice to murder him look like petty revenge, simply because Sherlock was upset at being bested and not because he wanted to save John and Mary. I wouldn't call this an "out of character" action for a sociopath, but I wouldn't call it a selfless act from a man trying to protect his friends, either.
Aleron Ives is offline  
post #253 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 03:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
archiguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 17,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

I guess this is the part that I don't quite grasp. Why was Mary in danger? As I understood it, Magnussen used Mary to get to John to get to Sherlock to get to Mycroft, so that he could get his hands on the state secrets contained in the laptop. He got the laptop, so why would he have have then chosen to still expose Mary?

As far as we know, he only uses blackmail to achieve his goals, and it wouldn't make sense for him to ruin somebody anyway after getting what he wanted, since that would be a "waste" of an informant he could blackmail again in the future. Yes, killing him prevented him from changing his mind and blackmailing Mary again later, but the imminent danger had already been averted, which made Sherlock's choice to murder him look like petty revenge, simply because Sherlock was upset at being bested and not because he wanted to save John and Mary. I wouldn't call this an "out of character" action for a sociopath, but I wouldn't call it a selfless act from a man trying to protect his friends, either.

As I recall, Magnussen was going to expose Mary anyway, just because he could and because he wanted to frak with Sherlock. In his twisted mind that would represent a "victory" over Sherlock and that was supremely important to him. The guy was a sociopath and because "it takes one to know one", Sherlock knew there was only one way to protect his friends. Including, um, the one who shot him.
archiguy is offline  
post #254 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 03:51 PM
 
Cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Northwest Boonies
Posts: 5,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
BattleStar Gallactica gave us a lot of things. (Except, for me, a truly inspiring finale)
I.E.: It gave us the ability to say frak and have everyone know what we really mean, in places they don't allow such expression.

(And I still wish I'd come away from that last espisode with same admiration I had after seeing the high level of Everything in "A Scandal in Belgravia".)
Cyrano is offline  
post #255 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 03:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cwilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Ben Lomond CA USA
Posts: 1,785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 15
If indeed all the documents were in the memory palace and nowhere else, the first question is, how would Magnussen prove anything? Of course in some cases making an accusation, even if not paper documented, especially by someone known to be consistently accurate, could have the desired effect.

So it was necessary to destroy Magnussen's memory palace. A solution that occurred to me that would have been less messy than the gunshot would have been to subject Magnussen to ECT - electroconvulsive therapy. That would presumably wipe out most of those memories, and problem solved. As a physician, Watson could have performed the procedure, given the proper equipment. Would have required violating Magnussen's civil rights, but Sherlock wouldn't have gotten hung up on those niceties.
cwilson is offline  
post #256 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 03:58 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
archiguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 17,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post

BattleStar Gallactica gave us a lot of things. (Except, for me, a truly inspiring finale)

I've watched that finale many times and it chokes me up every time. Inspiration is where you find it, I guess.
archiguy is offline  
post #257 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 04:11 PM
 
Cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Northwest Boonies
Posts: 5,738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I've watched that finale many times and it chokes me up every time. Inspiration is where you find it, I guess.

Pardon me, I was rude. I'll check it out again. It went where I expected; that was the only problem with it for me. I won't go into specifics.
That was a great series. Someday BD version. And I'll be a little more open this time at the ending.

I do think I spoke too quickly without thinking. I can only remember the location shot at the end and it didn't surprise me. Ignore me. Sometimes I am stupid. (I find little support whenever I mention that The Sixth Sense ending totally surprised me. And I thought Forrest Gump was a great movie) eek.gif
Cyrano is offline  
post #258 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 04:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Aleron Ives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

As I recall, Magnussen was going to expose Mary anyway, just because he could

I only recall him telling Watson, "Let me flick your face, or I'll expose your wife! Ho ho ho!" just as a way to assert his dominance. I don't think he actually intended to do it, since he's not the kind of person to burn potential assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilson View Post

If indeed all the documents were in the memory palace and nowhere else, the first question is, how would Magnussen prove anything? Of course in some cases making an accusation, even if not paper documented, especially by someone known to be consistently accurate, could have the desired effect.

That was Magnussen's response when asked the same question: as a reporter for the tabloids, he doesn't need proof to destroy people's reputations; printing the stories at all is enough to bring his targets down, since he only goes after important public figures whose careers can easily be toppled by a scandal or rumour.
Aleron Ives is offline  
post #259 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 06:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
archiguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 17,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

I only recall him telling Watson, "Let me flick your face, or I'll expose your wife! Ho ho ho!" just as a way to assert his dominance. I don't think he actually intended to do it, since he's not the kind of person to burn potential assets.

If Sherlock thought he wasn't going to expose Mary, he wouldn't have taken the extreme step of shooting him. I've erased the episode now, but I'm pretty sure Magnussen said, or at least implied, he was going through with it. Maybe somebody who still has it on DVR or BD can confirm.
archiguy is offline  
post #260 of 260 Old 02-17-2014, 06:50 PM
Newbie
 
George22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

It just occured to me, from a devil's advocate point of view, that perhaps Sherlock decided he had to kill Magnussen because only he might have been able to get away with it, while John and Mary could not. He knew his brother had a "suicide mission" in mind for him that would enable his crime to be essentially pardoned in the interest of national security. Killing Magnussen was the only way to keep Mary out of prison and John from suffering her loss. Sherlock had vowed to protect them. It was the only way to keep that vow; there were no other moves to play.

Of course, I wish there had been another move to play, one that would have outwitted the bad guy instead of offing him. And I fault Moffit & Co. for not being clever enough to think of one.

Of all the posts, and as much as I loath to deviate from my previous position, this makes a weird kind of sense. Magnussen was an evil person, according to the rules of morality as normally viewed by society. And, yes, I totally agree that this last episode could have been better prepared by Moffit and Co. Still as many other posts have pointed out, this is television and the sponsors do expect shows such as this to fit into a certain format. Reality is not high on their list. Still and all, Sherlock is oh so much better than 95% of the crap shown locally. cool.gif
George22 is offline  
Reply HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off