2010 World Series on FOX in HD - Rangers vs. Giants! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:03 PM
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A lot noise in the picture.

WTVT via Bright House Networks.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:20 PM
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The picture always looks great when your team is winning! No video problems watching on DirecTV KTVU SF broadcast!

LETS GO GIANTS!!

What a meltdown by the Rangers bullpen.

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Old 10-28-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

The picture always looks great when your team is winning! No video problems watching on DirecTV KTVU SF broadcast!

LETS GO GIANTS!!

What a meltdown by the Rangers bullpen.

Well, it makes a soft picture, a flat insipid picture, and a doozy pair of commentators, a lot easier to take.... But in comparison to Comcast local, or TBS, the Fox broadcast was really poor. Fox should be ashamed of what they put out there.

I watched on DTV, Comcast and OTA, no major differences. And I am almost feeling sorry for Rangers fans.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Wellman View Post

I agree with ccotenj and retiredengineer. Tad soft, but definitely watchable. Far better than ESPN.

Tom, are you getting a complete score bug and Fox box in upper corners, or just the bottom half? I'm on the legacy TWC San Diego system in Serra Mesa (across from Montgomery Field) and I get the boxes cut off.

I know, I know, it's been there all season like that on Fox MLB games, but I just wasn't interesting in complaining. No such issue with Fox NFL games.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

Tom, are you getting a complete score bug and Fox box in upper corners, or just the bottom half? I'm on the legacy TWC San Diego system in Serra Mesa (across from Montgomery Field) and I get the boxes cut off.

I know, I know, it's been there all season like that on Fox MLB games, but I just wasn't interesting in complaining. No such issue with Fox NFL games.

I had the Fox box (which is the scorebox or score bug as you've described) on the upper left corner and the "World Series on Fox" bug on the upper right corner of my screen. I was watching on ch. 705. Humdinger70, were you watching on ch. 5, ch. 705 or through clear qam on ch. 69.1?

And the FOUL!
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wellman View Post

I had the Fox box (which is the scorebox or score bug as you've described) on the upper left corner and the "World Series on Fox" bug on the upper right corner of my screen. Was watching on ch. 705. Humdinger70, were you watching on ch. 5, ch. 705 or ch. 69.1 through clear qam?

TWC on channel 705 (KSWB HD). So do you get full box or cut off box?
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

TWC on channel 705 (KSWB HD). So do you get full box or cut off box?

I got the full box. Nothing was cut off. Did you check to see if your tv was stretched out or zoomed?

And the FOUL!
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

In Lisle here with DirecTV as well. Did you watch it on the DirecTV local channel of 32 or via OTA 32-1? Just curious.

Both. I switched back and forth to see if OTA was any better, but the picture quality was so poor that it was hard to tell. Usually OTA is at least slightly better.

I wonder if people in San Francisco are getting a better picture of the game seeing as the game is there. Maybe they don't have to go through as many steps to get the signal out to people there, who knows. I'm unsure how the process is from getting the signal from the ball park to the provider to the TV.

Also, on top of the poor picture issues, what makes matters worse is the shaky jerky camera. Even on shots that you think would be still are bad with random shaking. I find this very annoying and I notice it on FOX more than any other network.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:14 PM
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One reason I'm glad I'm a lifelong STEELERS fan--almost all of their games are on CBS, whose HD broadcasts simply blow away FOX's.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Buck is such an idiot...

He is. Between him and McCarver, I'm just about at the end of my rope with the stupid comments. I'm ready to just put on ESPN radio and put up with the sound delay.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

He is. Between him and McCarver, I'm just about at the end of my rope with the stupid comments. I'm ready to just put on ESPN radio and put up with the sound delay.

Is anyone ever really satisfied national announcers?

And the FOUL!
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

One reason I'm glad I'm a lifelong STEELERS fan--almost all of their games are on CBS, whose HD broadcasts simply blow away FOX's.

Ditto. Even as a fan of my pathetic 2-5 Chargers, I for one am also glad that the majority of my Charger games are on CBS. Although I didn't used to think that way when our local CBS affiliate, KFMB, had issues with their encoder that receives CBS Network programming, but that's been fixed, and everything is great.

And the FOUL!
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wellman View Post

I got the full box. Nothing was cut off. Did you check to see if your tv was stretched out or zoomed?

I don't ever use stretched or zoomed.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

I don't ever use stretched or zoomed.

Sounds like your TV has a ridiculous amount of overscan. Does it have a 1:1 or just scan mode?
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wellman View Post

Is anyone ever really satisfied national announcers?

Jon Miller and Joe Morgan on ESPN? Buck and McCarver get on my nerves, as did Ernie Johnson and co. on TBS.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:56 AM
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^^^

jon and joe are good... i like them... jon is a "comfortable" voice, and even though joe gets "stuck" every now and then, he provides good insight into the game...

and imo, nobody is as good as bob costas... bob's love for the game just shines through when he's calling one...

i still long for the days of vin scully on the game of the week though... he's the last of the great lions of broadcasting...

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Old 10-29-2010, 06:57 AM
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In Canada along with the Fox broadcast of the World Series, we get the MLB International telecast of the series, with announcers Gary Thorne and Rick Sutcliffe on Sportsnet. The picture looks a lot better than Fox but the sound is not 5.1
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:06 AM
 
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I agree Joe's gotta go.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Sounds like your TV has a ridiculous amount of overscan. Does it have a 1:1 or just scan mode?

I don't know, I've never touched that setting, and I really don't want to.. My unit is a 9+ year old rear projection CRT monster (Mitsubishi WS55807 just if you want the particulars - I paid about $3,300 for it) and only on Fox MLB games does this issue come up.

If it was a unit problem, then wouldn't ALL graphics on ALL channels have this issue? No issues with football (on either CBS or Fox) or sports on 4SD. FYI, this issue on Fox MLB didn't occur last year, just started this season.

It's might be best to leave well enough alone. Only 5 more MLB games (at maximum with Giants up 2-0) this season are left.
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

I don't know, I've never touched that setting, and I really don't want to.. My unit is a 9+ year old rear projection CRT monster (Mitsubishi WS55807 just if you want the particulars - I paid about $3,300 for it) and only on Fox MLB games does this issue come up.

It's your TV overscan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

If it was a unit problem, then wouldn't ALL graphics on ALL channels have this issue? No issues with football (on either CBS or Fox) or sports on 4SD. FYI, this issue on Fox MLB didn't occur last year, just started this season.

No, not all graphics on all stations would have the issue. It didn't happen of FOX last year because they were using 4:3 area safe graphics. They just changed to 16:9 safe only. I guarantee you're not the only one seeing the problem.
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

I don't know, I've never touched that setting, and I really don't want to.. My unit is a 9+ year old rear projection CRT monster (Mitsubishi WS55807 just if you want the particulars - I paid about $3,300 for it) and only on Fox MLB games does this issue come up.

Has it ever been calibrated in those 9 years? If not, I can guarantee you the overscan setting needs adjustment, along with a few other things. CRT-based displays need maintenance, at a minimum of 18-24 months apart in my opinion. If the CRTs are still in good shape I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how "new" looking your image will be once the calibration is done.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kenkraly2004 View Post

spwace my opinion about fox's crappy HD picture quallity is wrong? look at this post a lot of people besides me are upset that fox's hd picture quallity for their sports is not that good I have directv HD so I can tell good hd when I see it.

I was referring to your opinion that it was upconverted 480p. First off, there is no 480p, even the original FOX system was 480i upconverted to 480p.

I also agree that it is not as good as TBS or the regional sports nets, but it is HD. Descriptions of it as "horrible" are a bit over the top and tend to lessen the credibility of the writer, so let's all just agree that it is just not as good as it could be and maybe come to some consensus as to why.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Buck is such an idiot, I'm sorry that there's a baseball game being played and it keeps interrupting your story about Ron Washington, and the ball hit the edge of the wall, not the top of the wall and that's why it bounced back into play. These 2 announcers are insufferable.

I think it hit the top of the pad and the solid wall behind the pad pushed it back onto the field. That's the second time I have seen that happen at AT&T park. A few years ago I was at a game against the Phillies and Ryan Howard hit a ball in almost the exact spot. It too bounced back onto the field.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Wellman View Post

Is anyone ever really satisfied national announcers?

More people like them than not or they wouldn't be there. I think most people would much rather have their own hometown announcers do the games. I know I would.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spwace View Post

I think it hit the top of the pad and the solid wall behind the pad pushed it back onto the field. That's the second time I have seen that happen at AT&T park. A few years ago I was at a game against the Phillies and Ryan Howard hit a ball in almost the exact spot. It too bounced back onto the field.

My impression was that it hit the edge(with the edge of the actual wall underneath the pad) with just enough of the ball below center axis for it to bounce back rather out out. In any case, it was interesting as I've never seen it that close before, seen great catches and some misses, but never something like that.

I agree on your comments about the PQ, it's not downright horrible, it just looks like a poor example of a FOX 720p telecast, I've seen better, but not much worse from them(for an HD transmission that is). Something not mentioned is that it might also be due to the the onsite truck, the equipment and settings they're using, Arlington will likely be a different truck/company so maybe we'll get a better image from there.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by spwace View Post

More people like them than not or they wouldn't be there. I think most people would much rather have their own hometown announcers do the games. I know I would.

Absolutely, especially since the Giants have two of the very best in the business with Kuiper and Krukow, they're almost as good as my man Vin Scully with the Dodgers.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Absolutely, especially since the Giants have two of the very best in the business with Kuiper and Krukow, they're almost as good as my man Vin Scully with the Dodgers.

I love Kruk and Kuip, but Vin Scully is the best.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Absolutely, especially since the Giants have two of the very best in the business with Kuiper and Krukow, they're almost as good as my man Vin Scully with the Dodgers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spwace View Post

I love Kruk and Kuip, but Vin Scully is the best.


+2 on Vin Scully. No matter who your team is, you'll be hard pressed to find a negative word about him. And since he doesn't travel east of the Rockies anymore, he would've been perfect for these past 2 games.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:11 PM
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As far as the noise in the image, live cameras operated in progressive formats such as 720p can have up to half the sensitivity of interlaced formats such as 1080i. This is because many cameras in interlace mode use alternating imager pixel grouping between odd/even and even/odd rows for the two fields which effectively doubles the area of light gathering on each pixel. The pixels are then effectively adjacent on each field, which reduces aliasing and smoothes diagonal detail, and also creates a half row offset between fields to allow greater vertical detail than that created by half the row count. However since the rows have effectively a 50% overlap between fields there is a reduction of the depth of modulation of higher frequencies on vertical detail. Some of the rolloff can be compensated with vertical detail enhancement.

Some cameras in 720p (such as Sony) operate the imager in 1080p and scale to 720p. GV cameras group smaller rows to create 720 rows. Either way the pixels are effectively smaller in 720p than 1080i so extra gain and/or wider aperture is required to create proper video levels. When there is sufficient light, such as on day games, this is not as much of a problem. On night games this can be a very significant issue, especially with longer focal lengths.

Noise in the image causes problems in the subsequent encoding compression including the backhaul, network distribution fronthaul and provider re-encoding or rate shaping. Sometimes pre-filtering, which is usually a low pass filter, is enabled on the backhaul encoder to minimize the effect that higher frequency noise has on the compression, but in my opinion it causes more problems with softer images.

It seems that an option that could be added to live cameras using imagers with 1080 rows (such as Sony) would be to force pixel grouping in 720p mode. This grouping would need to be consistent between frames as there are no fields. While this would reduce the vertical resolution, it may be a better alternative to the reduced sensitivity.

The debate of whether 720p or 1080i is best for sports will likely continue, but it seems that most on AVS prefer 1080i.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:32 PM
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Jon Miller and Joe Morgan on ESPN?

They're good and Miller is a wordsmith. He does radio play by play for the Gs excepting his Sunday night baseball gig. The local TV guys that get mentioned nationally, Mike Krukow and Dwayne Kuiper, really are the most entertaining crew I've ever heard. However, they'll never get a national gig since they're raving homers (and are paid to be). They'll crack you up though.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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