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post #721 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by moob View Post

I didn't mention the goofy costumes, make-up, bad acting and clichéd writing. I know folks said that it (writing/story) gets better once you get to season two, but I still have to look at it

so never watched the whole series?

the very end of s1 sets the stage for the true story ark that goes all the way through to the end. s2 gets the ball rolling, s3 & 4 are the main story and s5 wraps up some loose ends, and gives the final outcomes of the main characters, including the guy with the big hair , who becomes what he wanted to be, the emperor of his planet....and his very big tragic downfall that goes with it. there are big adult issues in the series -

death & what it means to be mortal, war, the fate of earth, mankind & all alien races, thousand of yrs struggle between good & evil, chaos vs order, authoritarianism vs man's free will, colony on Mars, telepaths used as weapons, political intrigue, racial bigotry & the struggle for freedom, inter-species love & marriage as a metaphor for interracial, and religion thrown in. IMO, it is a very Dune-like story, with a messianic character, religion overtones, etc

if you haven't gotten past the cgi, the costumes, big hair, then you've missed the entire theme of the show. and if you haven't gotten past s.1 then you missed the main character of the entire rest of the series, a new base commander who eventually leads all mankind & alienkind into a war against the evil forces. and if you can watch the finale in s5 & not choke up a bit, then you're a harder man than me

maybe you should try skipping s.1, except for last 2 eps, then give it a try. It is a serial, not quite as much as BSG, but s3 &4 particularly serialized, one ep directly leads to the next.

Babylon 5 was the BSG of its day, just like BSG is of ours. Read the wiki on the show, some websites devoted to it, and go from there. it is NOT about the cgi, the big hair (that's the way males on that planet wore their hair, status symbol) & remember it was made in the early 90's

from wiki

"Straczynski wondered why no one had done a television series with the same epic sweep (as Dune, Asimov's Foundation, LOTR), and concurrently with the first idea started developing the concept for a vastly-ambitious epic covering massive battles and other universe-changing events. Realizing that both the fixed-locale series and the epic could be done in a single series, he began to sketch the initial outline of what would become Babylon 5"

"his approach was "to take [science fiction] seriously, to build characters for grown-ups, to incorporate real science but keep the characters at the center of the story."

Steve
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post #722 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 05:00 AM
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moob

plus you're missing Walter Koenig (Chekhov) play a real bad guy , the head of a SS type earth force of telepaths, sinister, conniving and even down to the black uniform & boots Much better role than he had as Chekhov. He plays it to the max!

Steve
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post #723 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

When the best that can be said in defense of TN is it's a family show, popcorn fare, silly fun, but hardly anyone discusses the story or characters - that's not a great endorsement.

Not here. I have been spending time on other forums that actually discuss the plot of the show in depth. For instance, there is lots of speculation about how the Sixers are independently communicating with the future. Another example: Some are guessing that the reason the Terra Nova weapons are not more lethal to the dinos is by design. Perhaps the settlers are under strict orders to do as little damage to the existing ecosystem as possible. If you kill too many carnivores, you would have to balance that out by killing the corresponding number of herbivores that serve as their food.
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post #724 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Viventis View Post

Some are guessing that the reason the Terra Nova weapons are not more lethal to the dinos is by design. Perhaps the settlers are under strict orders to do as little damage to the existing ecosystem as possible.

That's one of the funnier things I've read to fill in lazy writing on behalf of a show in a long time.

The only handful of humans on the planet who are there to save the human race and establish a new human civilization and the future is more concerned with protecting a planetful of dinosaurs? Not to mention the best they can come up with is using hundreds of tiny bullets as a deterrent when they could just use electric weapons, microwaves, noise, gas, strobes or just plain old rubber bullets fired from shotguns rather than waste entire magazines just to annoy attackers. These things exist now to deter attacks from all manner of humans and animals. 200 years in the future should not be a big stretch to come up with something more efficient and effective.

You only have to look at the lazy production design and terrible teen drama to see the show is doing nothing particularly clever or subtle at all. It's 99% surface.


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post #725 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 07:27 AM
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But you have to admit that the sonic weapons have been designed to be non-lethal. Otherwise, dad has a thicker skin than the dinos. Why would the main settlement defense weapons be designed that way?

Why would killing a handful of dinosaurs make a difference? Dinos are bigger than butterflies.

As far as the environmental issues in the show: The premise is that man killed the planet by being environmentally short sighted. Assuming that you can monkey with the ecosystem without making a difference is why Earth got to its sad state in 2149.

Whether you agree with, disagree with, or scoff at the premise, I believe the main theme of this show is that man cannot impose its will upon the planet without very careful consideration of the consequences.
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post #726 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Viventis View Post

But you have to admit that the sonic weapons have been designed to be non-lethal. Otherwise, dad has a thicker skin than the dinos. Why would the main settlement defense weapons be designed that way?

That's exactly why I don't have a problem with the sonic weapons. Clearly they are designed as a non-lethal deterrent. Either to train predators to avoid the settlement, or to avoid a growing mound of dino-carcasses surrounding the compound.

I do have a problem with the conventional weapons being ineffective. Even if you suspend disbelief and assume the weapons they have are not effective at putting down dinos, there's no question that they would have corrected that problem with new weapons by the 2nd or 3rd pilgrimage.
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post #727 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Viventis View Post

Assuming that you can monkey with the ecosystem without making a difference is why Earth got to its sad state in 2149.

And mankind going back 85 million years won't have an equally damaging impact on the ecosystem? That defies credibility....

What's the energy source? are we completely off using carbon for anything? If not, then they hasten the global heating events between the Paleocene-Eocene eras where the earth was ice-free with about 1500 ppm CO2 in the atmosphere (we are currently about 25% of the way there now at ~400 ppm). This event was about 56 million yrs ago.

Are they using fission? then there's going to be 85 million yrs of radioactive waste to deal with and another eco-disaster.

Fusion? then we gradually use up water from the oceans, stripping out deuterium and pumping helium into the atmosphere

Solar or geothermal are the only ones that could not destroy the ecosystem in that length of time. To support a new civilization the size & magnitude of today's would require millions of sq miles of solar panels or miles of in-ground drilling to tap magma-like temperatures. The magnitude of those technologies will have a huge impact on the ecosystem, taking land & resources out of circulation for energy.

Magic energy pills (V blue energy anyone ) or singularity based, wormhole based energy sources? Nothing like that conceivable in the next 150 yrs. We've been trying to achieve controlled, sustainable & economical thermonuclear fusion for 50 yrs & we haven't even succeeded at that!

It's not even good science fiction. It's just a bad, poorly executed story. Jurassic Park could be believable in that it has some basis in science...manipulating genetics.

Time travel..OK I'm in. Re-building civilization...I'm in.

Going back 85 million years to avoid screwing up the environment....nah, not buying it, not in the least! A lame idea because it's

1. not believable based on mankind's needs for resources & energy
2. unpredictable outcomes and altering the natural course of prehistory so may end up right where we started, only much worse considering the damage we've done in a few centuries.

IMO, trying to take TN seriously is worse than just calling it what it is - popcorn, silly fun, escapist fare

Steve
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post #728 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Viventis View Post

But you have to admit that the sonic weapons have been designed to be non-lethal..

Even the cannons they use are ridiculous. They have recoil, are inaccurate and if they are a non-lethal weapon are more clumsy than the LRAD which is in use right now. A better alternative would be to have speakers arranged around the fence perimeter that emit sound waves on certain frequencies to disorientate or deter dinosaurs.

And as mentioned, after a few encounters with dinosaurs and useless bullets they would start changing tactics and trying alternatives.

It reminds me of Starship Troopers. In the future mankind can build interstellar spacecraft, but sends the grunts in to fight razor armed bugs with less armor than a football player and weapons that are massive and unwieldy and fire rounds less effective than current weaponry. That's because Paul Verhoeven has a really terrible grasp of technology and sci-fi production design - you can thank Rob Bottin for RoboCop. Same applies to TN. It's just bad production design and creativity from creators who don't know any better.

The show can't even make a reasonable comment about how ineffective all their "technology" is. If they acknowledge it all sucks and then try to do something about it at least give them an excuse to be forced to use it in the meantime.

For a start they could be fitting metal cages over the exposed turrets to stop the gunners being eaten. In Iraq when the military realized that strykers were vulnerable to RPG fire they started bolting slats to the armor as a quick fix. It looks bad, but it works. In seven years on TN you would think someone might have suggested gunner cages.

If something exists now that is better than something that supposedly was created in the far future then the show is creatively failing.


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post #729 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cpanther95 View Post

i do have a problem with the conventional weapons being ineffective. Even if you suspend disbelief and assume the weapons they have are not effective at putting down dinos, there's no question that they would have corrected that problem with new weapons by the 2nd or 3rd pilgrimage.

+1

Steve
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post #730 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

Even the cannons they use are ridiculous...Same applies to TN. It's just bad production design and creativity from creators who don't know any better....If something exists now that is better than something that supposedly was created in the far future then the show is creatively failing.

+1 to your good points, too
Some of us see thru the nonsense, I guess

Steve
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post #731 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:20 AM
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And mankind going back 85 million years won't have an equally damaging impact on the ecosystem? That defies credibility....

At their point in time it should make no difference what they do to survive. What are they going to do, just live in that tiny compound until the asteroid hits and wipes away the entire human race again?

At some point they have to expand, build new areas, factories and infrastructure and to do that they have to kill dinosaurs for both food and defense. Unless they plan to just let people die repeatedly and wait until kids are old enough to take their place and perform their job.

What are they going to do if a T-rex breaks into the compound? Use harsh language to make it go away? Or will that hurt it's feelings?


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post #732 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 08:24 AM
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At their point in time it should make no difference what they do to survive. What are they going to do, just live in that tiny compound until the asteroid hits and wipes away the entire human race again?

At some point they have to expand, build new areas, factories and infrastructure and to do that they have to kill dinosaurs for both food and defense. Unless they plan to just let people die repeatedly and wait until kids are old enough to take their place and perform their job.

What are they going to do if a T-rex breaks into the compound? Use harsh language to make it go away? Or will that hurt it's feelings?

exactly...the logical outcomes escape this show
I was thinking the same thing....harsh language will work wonders

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post #733 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 09:35 AM
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Could not DISAGREE more. How does the quality of the cgi have anything to do with the adult nature of the STORY!!!??? Second last episode of season two, with the Inquisitor...not adult? Cheesy? Come on, that's ridiculous!

The one thing that b5 failed at was humor. Obviously it was a dark serious show. When it tried to put in humor it didn't work. But overall it was an excellent show with great writing, so so acting and I think the CGI holds up well for being for when it was produced. For the quanity and quality in space battles no other show comes close.

http://arena.pro-forum.us/t264-babylon-5-space-battles
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post #734 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:13 AM
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And mankind going back 85 million years won't have an equally damaging impact on the ecosystem? That defies credibility....

What's the energy source? are we completely off using carbon for anything? If not, then they hasten the global heating events between the Paleocene-Eocene eras where the earth was ice-free with about 1500 ppm CO2 in the atmosphere (we are currently about 25% of the way there now at ~400 ppm). This event was about 56 million yrs ago.

Are they using fission? then there's going to be 85 million yrs of radioactive waste to deal with and another eco-disaster.

Fusion? then we gradually use up water from the oceans, stripping out deuterium and pumping helium into the atmosphere

Solar or geothermal are the only ones that could not destroy the ecosystem in that length of time. To support a new civilization the size & magnitude of today's would require millions of sq miles of solar panels or miles of in-ground drilling to tap magma-like temperatures. The magnitude of those technologies will have a huge impact on the ecosystem, taking land & resources out of circulation for energy.

Magic energy pills (V blue energy anyone ) or singularity based, wormhole based energy sources? Nothing like that conceivable in the next 150 yrs. We've been trying to achieve controlled, sustainable & economical thermonuclear fusion for 50 yrs & we haven't even succeeded at that!

It's not even good science fiction. It's just a bad, poorly executed story. Jurassic Park could be believable in that it has some basis in science...manipulating genetics.

Time travel..OK I'm in. Re-building civilization...I'm in.

Going back 85 million years to avoid screwing up the environment....nah, not buying it, not in the least! A lame idea because it's

1. not believable based on mankind's needs for resources & energy
2. unpredictable outcomes and altering the natural course of prehistory so may end up right where we started, only much worse considering the damage we've done in a few centuries.

IMO, trying to take TN seriously is worse than just calling it what it is - popcorn, silly fun, escapist fare

They showed a wind farm with 6-8 wind turbines in the pilot. That's what is powering the compound.
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post #735 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:20 AM
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found this quote from a site that discusses all our favorites -

"Ron Moore’s Battlestar Galactica is almost a direct descendent of Babylon 5, a show massively ahead of its time. As Ron Moore has since done with Battlestar, creator J. Michael Straczynski set out not just to make great science fiction, but also to make great television. He succeeded. Though it was never a ratings bonanza, Babylon 5 ran the five seasons Staraczynski originally conceived for it, piled up award after award, and earned an unquestioned place as one of the best science fiction shows in the history of television."

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post #736 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:37 AM
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They showed a wind farm with 6-8 wind turbines in the pilot. That's what is powering the compound.

to build on VisionOn's comments, and mine, wind farms are fine for the compound, but to rebuild a civilization vast amounts of energy far more than wind farms can provide.

The point is not what they have now, but what it will take to replace "us" as they go forward. That's where the idea falls apart because once they start on that path, they will have the same problems with damaging the ecosystem we do now, maybe worse because of the climactic, extinction event, evolutionary & geological changes the world went through from then to now.

If the intent of the story is that they scab resources from their present-future, to build in the past, they still have the same problem. Even with wind farms, there's only so many that can be built/teleported from future, eventually they have to mfg, and as civilization grows, the numbers & size of wind farms needed will suck up vast amounts of land, altering the climate, etc.....back to square one with ecological impacts & damage.

No matter what course is taken, they cannot escape altering the landscape. Maybe it'll be better with less damage. But even changing wind patterns has impacts on weather, etc if on a large enough scale. I think the idea that they'd "do it better" this time is true. But eventually, they will have to kill the dinosaurs and other animals of the day to expand civilization. Our growth means destroying the habitat so the dinosaurs will be reduced in number anyway.

So why are they using sonic & non-lethal weapons in the 1st place?

Steve
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post #737 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

to build on VisionOn's comments, tho, and mine, wind farms are fine for a compound, but to rebuild a civilization takes factories & vast amounts of energy. The point is not what they have now, but what it will take to replace "us" as they go forward. That's where the idea falls apart because once they start on that path, they will have the same problems with damaging the ecosystem we do now, maybe worse because of the climactic, extinction event, evolutionary & geological changes the world went through from then to now.

I was only kidding about the "wind farm". 6-8 wind turbines would hardly be a sufficient power source for the entire compound.
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post #738 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:43 AM
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I guess I'm the only one left that has no interest in the science of the show, nor all the side issue dissection .. I take it for what it is, 40 minutes of mindless entertainment and one of the few shows left on TV that actually is SciFi .. (or whatever you want to call it) ..

Back in the day .. when I watched shows like "Time Tunnel", "Space Family Robinson", "My Favorite Martian" .. etc .. we cared not about the details, we just enjoyed the shows ..

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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post #739 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:50 AM
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I guess I'm the only one left that has no interest in the science of the show, nor all the side issue dissection .. I take it for what it is, 40 minutes of mindless entertainment and one of the few shows left on TV that actually is SciFi .. (or whatever you want to call it) ..

Back in the day .. when I watched shows like "Time Tunnel", "Space Family Robinson", "My Favorite Martian" .. etc .. we cared not about the details, we just enjoyed the shows ..

You're not the only one.

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post #740 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:57 AM
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^^
and the 2 of you are probably happier people as a result
Hey, as a kid, I also liked My Favorite Martian, Lost in Space, Time Tunnel, Voyage to the Bottom, the works I liked Mr Ed, too.

Taken as a kid's show, Terra Nova fills the bill

Steve
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post #741 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 10:58 AM
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^^

and the 2 of you are probably happier people as a result
Hey, as a kid, I liked My Favorite Martian, Lost in Space, Time Tunnel, too
Taken as a kid's show, Terra Nova fills the bill

I guess at 65 I'm still young at heart ..

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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post #742 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:00 AM
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so never watched the whole series?

the very end of s1 sets the stage for the true story ark that goes all the way through to the end. s2 gets the ball rolling, s3 & 4 are the main story and s5 wraps up some loose ends, and gives the final outcomes of the main characters, including the guy with the big hair , who becomes what he wanted to be, the emperor of his planet....and his very big tragic downfall that goes with it. there are big adult issues in the series -

death & what it means to be mortal, war, the fate of earth, mankind & all alien races, thousand of yrs struggle between good & evil, chaos vs order, authoritarianism vs man's free will, colony on Mars, telepaths used as weapons, political intrigue, racial bigotry & the struggle for freedom, inter-species love & marriage as a metaphor for interracial, and religion thrown in. IMO, it is a very Dune-like story, with a messianic character, religion overtones, etc

if you haven't gotten past the cgi, the costumes, big hair, then you've missed the entire theme of the show. and if you haven't gotten past s.1 then you missed the main character of the entire rest of the series, a new base commander who eventually leads all mankind & alienkind into a war against the evil forces. and if you can watch the finale in s5 & not choke up a bit, then you're a harder man than me

maybe you should try skipping s.1, except for last 2 eps, then give it a try. It is a serial, not quite as much as BSG, but s3 &4 particularly serialized, one ep directly leads to the next.

Babylon 5 was the BSG of its day, just like BSG is of ours. Read the wiki on the show, some websites devoted to it, and go from there. it is NOT about the cgi, the big hair (that's the way males on that planet wore their hair, status symbol) & remember it was made in the early 90's

from wiki

"Straczynski wondered why no one had done a television series with the same epic sweep (as Dune, Asimov's Foundation, LOTR), and concurrently with the first idea started developing the concept for a vastly-ambitious epic covering massive battles and other universe-changing events. Realizing that both the fixed-locale series and the epic could be done in a single series, he began to sketch the initial outline of what would become Babylon 5"

"his approach was "to take [science fiction] seriously, to build characters for grown-ups, to incorporate real science but keep the characters at the center of the story."

Bravo, well said! Certainly B5 had its flaws particularly in Season 1. I will be the first to admit that. But it had a very special endearing quality that I like to call true heart and soul. I've yet to encounter anything quite like it. And once it ended, it was like losing my best friends. I see the series as a very rare and precious gift perhaps never to be repeated in my lifetime.
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post #743 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:00 AM
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I guess at 65 I'm still young at heart ..

I'm 61 so not far behind....
At least we still have sense of humor

Steve
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post #744 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:04 AM
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I'm 61 so not far behind....
At least we still have sense of humor

yeah, that may be the last thing to go ..

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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post #745 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AlSchmitt View Post

And once it ended, it was like losing my best friends. I see the series as a very rare and precious gift perhaps never to be repeated in my lifetime.

I felt that way with "Firefly" ..

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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post #746 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:21 AM
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no question, Firefly was great. 14 eps & Serenity and both my wife & I wanted more She's not the big SF fan I am but she loved Firefly, especially liked the Capt & the way Jewel, the mechanic, was played.

I liked Morena with long hair!

A fun show, with serious & humorous moments. Jaynestown was good

Steve
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post #747 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:28 AM
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no question, Firefly was great. 14 eps & Serenity and both my wife & I wanted more She's not the big SF fan I am but she loved Firefly, especially liked the Capt & the way Jewel, the mechanic, was played.

I liked Morena with long hair!

A fun show, with serious & humorous moments. Jaynestown was good

I don't think there was a throw-a-way episode in the entire run .. and I'll take Morena with long or short hair .. or probably bald for that matter ..




Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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post #748 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 11:56 AM
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No matter what course is taken, they cannot escape altering the landscape. Maybe it'll be better with less damage. But even changing wind patterns has impacts on weather, etc if on a large enough scale. I think the idea that they'd "do it better" this time is true.

And they already have. By the second episode they destroyed the natural breeding ground of the mini-pteros.

They may have moved the breeding ground but eventually they'll need to expand and then they have to move that species again or displace something else.

Building a civilization base first should be the priority. Once they have a safe place to live and work that fulfills all of their needs then they can think about how to minimize the damage on the gentle lizard monsters of the jungle that try to eat on them on a recurring basis.


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post #749 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 12:06 PM
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I guess I'm the only one left that has no interest in the science of the show, nor all the side issue dissection .. I take it for what it is, 40 minutes of mindless entertainment and one of the few shows left on TV that actually is SciFi .. (or whatever you want to call it) ..

That's the only way to approach this show. There's no point in trying to defend the illogical plot elements because it's just not written with that kind of depth or detail. I don't even know why anyone is trying to, because the stories fall apart so easily.

For me this show is already just background noise for a workout. It passes the time, but that's about it.

I wish the show would become funnier and more parody. At least then it would be acknowledging it's shortcomings and not trying to weakly convince the audience it's more than it is.


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post #750 of 1423 Old 10-15-2011, 12:57 PM
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OK it's beyond apparent that the show's Sc-Fi aspects are ill thought out, illogical and annoying to those of us who like at least a modicum of thought behind the wizardry. That leaves us with either a great character driven story in an exotic setting or a story with a great intriguing central mystery, well told, with a gradual well reasoned unfolding. We already see that "character driven" here means teen angst 101 which also seems to have now infected the adults. That leaves a well thought out, well told challenging and interesting central mystery. Who has any faith that this will be so?
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