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post #271 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I am not sure that Ferrari has a much better car than Williams this year. Great race.

That is because Massa makes the Ferrari look worse than it is or maybe Alonso makes it look better than it is.

Of course, a lot of that might have to do with the Renault engine.


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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

My guess is that Kubica will -- sadly -- never return to top form. His injuries were too severe.

This may be Johnny Herbert all over again. IIRC Herbert was in line for a seat at Williams before his crash. If he wouldn't have been severly injured, then he might have been in the most dominant car of the 90s and possibly a multiple F1 champion.


I have a question for the F1 fans. Do you people prefer no rules in restrictions on engines or the aerodynamics? For me, I would perfer an unrestricted engine formula to the multi-millions spent on aero devolopment.

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post #272 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

My guess is that Kubica will -- sadly -- never return to top form. His injuries were too severe.

I hope he can make it back...he was a terrific driver.


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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

That is because Massa makes the Ferrari look worse than it is or maybe Alonso makes it look better than it is.

I think it's the latter.

Massa is done.
It is suprising Ferrari hasn't dumped him yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens soon.
If it doesn't, there is only one explanation: they don't have the replacement driver ready to go yet (Perez or Kubica).


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I have a question for the F1 fans. Do you people prefer no rules in restrictions on engines or the aerodynamics? For me, I would perfer an unrestricted engine formula to the multi-millions spent on aero devolopment.

There has to be restrictions on engine power.
Otherwise, the cars will go faster and become dangerous and we will be back to where we were before with drivers getting killed on a regular basis and nobody really wants to see that again.

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post #273 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

...

I think it's the latter.

Massa is done.
It is suprising Ferrari hasn't dumped him yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens soon.
If it doesn't, there is only one explanation: they don't have the replacement driver ready to go yet (Perez or Kubica).
...

My money is on Weber as Massa's replacement.

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post #274 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

My money is on Weber as Massa's replacement.

RB has been hinting lately they want to keep Webber for another year so their younger guys can gain more experience.

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post #275 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:11 PM
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Kubica ftw! I remember bmw saubers first win

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post #276 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

RB has been hinting lately they want to keep Webber for another year so their younger guys can gain more experience.

Unless RB has extended a contract with him it doesn't matter what they think if Ferrari calls and Mark answers.

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post #277 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

Unless RB has extended a contract with him it doesn't matter what they think if Ferrari calls and Mark answers.

True, that.

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post #278 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

There has to be restrictions on engine power.
Otherwise, the cars will go faster and become dangerous and we will be back to where we were before with drivers getting killed on a regular basis and nobody really wants to see that again.

You may not know or understand the importance of aerodynamics to cornering speed. Is it that important for a F1 car to corner at 5Gs? Even if it is, is it worth the enormous cost in aero development? Just as a point of reference, the Belgian GP of '87 had a pole time of 1:52. The '03 pole was 1:43. The '87 Williams had more hp in qualifying trim than the '03 Ferrari. I know it isn't apples to apples, but a lot of that time is due to aerodynamics.

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post #279 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:41 PM
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Remember the turbocharged days? Ahah

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post #280 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post


You may not know or understand the importance of aerodynamics to cornering speed. Is it that important for a F1 car to corner at 5Gs? Even if it is, is it worth the enormous cost in aero development? Just as a point of reference, the Belgian GP of '87 had a pole time of 1:52. The '03 pole was 1:43. The '87 Williams had more hp in qualifying trim than the '03 Ferrari. I know it isn't apples to apples, but a lot of that time is due to aerodynamics.

Well aero is important on complex tracks but don't forget the loss of straightline speeds on the less complex courses

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post #281 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 04:31 PM
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The current rumor is that Sutil will go back to Force India, with di Resta then going to Ferrari.

MSC penalized 5 starting spots for punting Senna.

So far I'm hating this season. Mostly for the unpredictability, which implies something afoot. The tires were 90% fine last season, just needed a bit of tweaking, not the complete overhaul we got. If the drivers are forced to baby the cars because they're out of tires, it's just a technical challenge, not a racing challenge. I saw a lot of well-scrubbed tires going on during the race.

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post #282 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

The current rumor is that Sutil will go back to Force India, with di Resta then going to Ferrari.

MSC penalized 5 starting spots for punting Senna.

So far I'm hating this season. Mostly for the unpredictability, which implies something afoot. The tires were 90% fine last season, just needed a bit of tweaking, not the complete overhaul we got. If the drivers are forced to baby the cars because they're out of tires, it's just a technical challenge, not a racing challenge. I saw a lot of well-scrubbed tires going on during the race.

Really? You're kidding, right?

The unpredictable nature is what makes this season so compelling. I hated the first half of the last decade when it was always Schumi, Schumi, Schumi with the season over long before the race calendar cleared. Blech! You can have your boringly predictable season. Five winners in five races is great!

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post #283 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

You may not know or understand the importance of aerodynamics to cornering speed. Is it that important for a F1 car to corner at 5Gs? Even if it is, is it worth the enormous cost in aero development? Just as a point of reference, the Belgian GP of '87 had a pole time of 1:52. The '03 pole was 1:43. The '87 Williams had more hp in qualifying trim than the '03 Ferrari. I know it isn't apples to apples, but a lot of that time is due to aerodynamics.

I do UNDERSTAND downforce very well (my garage reflects that).

My point is speed kills.
A lack of grip kills.
Reducing hp forces research into improving downforce and stability under racing conditions.
And that = better safety for all concerned.


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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

The unpredictable nature is what makes this season so compelling. Five winners in five races is great!

+1

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post #284 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

Really? You're kidding, right?

The unpredictable nature is what makes this season so compelling. I hated the first half of the last decade when it was always Schumi, Schumi, Schumi with the season over long before the race calendar cleared. Blech! You can have your boringly predictable season. Five winners in five races is great!

If the unpredictability is artificially induced, then yeah, I hate it. It might be more than the tires, but with tires that worked (like last year) we could see how the teams solved the more real problems of the new setups.

But I look at it from a drivers perspective, not a fan's, so I see it differently. The only drivers that seem to like this season are the slow ones

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post #285 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

If the unpredictability is artificially induced, then yeah, I hate it. It might be more than the tires, but with tires that worked (like last year) we could see how the teams solved the more real problems of the new setups.

But I look at it from a drivers perspective, not a fan's, so I see it differently. The only drivers that seem to like this season are the slow ones

Well, I'm not a driver, I'm a fan. Whatever they're doing this season, they are doing it right. Fans don't care much so for coma-inducing parades. If the driver's don't like it, they can go to NASCAR. Ask JPM how well that works out.

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post #286 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 07:02 PM
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Last time I watched I haven't seen any "slow drivers", this includes the "pay drivers" which would be Maldonado who won yesterday! The only driver I have read complaining was Schumacher. The teams have to work now with what they have. This season has been great. The car is only as fast as the rubber underneath it, now it shows skill in managing tyres.
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post #287 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 09:45 PM
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The only driver I have read complaining was Schumacher.

And he crashed into Senna for no apparent reason. Senna was not waving as wide as MSC made it. His return to Formula One was a big mistake. Maybe not a financial one, but it surely did hurt his reputation. Five years ago he was compared with Senna, nowadays he cannot touch Senna's fame. BTW, "Senna" the movie is awesome.
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post #288 of 789 Old 05-14-2012, 11:27 PM
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And he crashed into Senna for no apparent reason. Senna was not waving as wide as MSC made it. His return to Formula One was a big mistake. Maybe not a financial one, but it surely did hurt his reputation. Five years ago he was compared with Senna, nowadays he cannot touch Senna's fame. BTW, "Senna" the movie is awesome.



I wanted to see Senna in the theater but missed it when it did limited showings around the US. I was hoping they would release it on Blu ray but apparently they won't! Schumacher was chasing Senna when Senna crashed and the rest is history. I actually wanted to see Michael Schumacher race motorcycles a bit longer but it is apparently too dangerous for him.The talent pool has changed since he was top dog.
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post #289 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

If the unpredictability is artificially induced, then yeah, I hate it. It might be more than the tires, but with tires that worked (like last year) we could see how the teams solved the more real problems of the new setups.

But I look at it from a drivers perspective, not a fan's, so I see it differently. The only drivers that seem to like this season are the slow ones

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Well, I'm not a driver, I'm a fan. Whatever they're doing this season, they are doing it right. Fans don't care much so for coma-inducing parades. If the driver's don't like it, they can go to NASCAR. Ask JPM how well that works out.

+1


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His return to Formula One was a big mistake. Maybe not a financial one, but it surely did hurt his reputation.

Sad, but true....

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post #290 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 12:48 AM
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I was hoping they would release it on Blu ray but apparently they won't! .

Are you sure?

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post #291 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 03:12 AM
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Are you sure?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Senna-Blu-ray/42024/

July 10th.
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post #292 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 07:52 AM
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http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Senna-Blu-ray/42024/

July 10th.

Just catch it on Netflix streaming. I'm not sure it's a movie that would benefit from BluRay. Most footage is old TV and old home movies, and looked pretty grainy at the theater.

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post #293 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

I do UNDERSTAND downforce very well (my garage reflects that).

My point is speed kills.
A lack of grip kills.
Reducing hp forces research into improving downforce and stability under racing conditions.
And that = better safety for all concerned.


Sorry I don't buy it. If you are doing 150mph around a corner then it is more dangerous if you crash then if you are doing 90mph. Also, it is easier to get to top speed out of a corner from 150 than say 90.

I am not sure you read my post with the different pole times. Here is another from Monaco. In '86, the pole was 1:22 and in '94 it was 1:18. The '94 car had a lot less hp. The next year the pole was reduced to 1:21 with restrictions on aerodynamics and even less hp.

Oh, there have only been four deaths in F1 in the last 30 years and none since San Marino in '94. I think most of that has to do with increased crash safety in the cars.

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post #294 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 08:31 AM
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Just catch it on Netflix streaming. I'm not sure it's a movie that would benefit from BluRay. Most footage is old TV and old home movies, and looked pretty grainy at the theater.

LOL, I can only imagine. I have a lot of the F1 races from the 90s on VHS. I haven't watched them in years, but I can only imagine how bad they look.

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post #295 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 09:08 AM
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Just catch it on Netflix streaming. I'm not sure it's a movie that would benefit from BluRay. Most footage is old TV and old home movies, and looked pretty grainy at the theater.

All movies benefit from a proper 1080p/lossless transfer (even if it is an upconvert of old video)..

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post #296 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 09:42 AM
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Sorry I don't buy it. If you are doing 150mph around a corner then it is more dangerous if you crash then if you are doing 90mph. Also, it is easier to get to top speed out of a corner from 150 than say 90.

I am not sure you read my post with the different pole times. Here is another from Monaco. In '86, the pole was 1:22 and in '94 it was 1:18. The '94 car had a lot less hp. The next year the pole was reduced to 1:21 with restrictions on aerodynamics and even less hp.

I did read your post and understand your point and it is well-taken.
However, it is next to impossible to compare those lap times without looking at a near endless list of variables: weather, tire tech, braking tech, suspension tech, track surfaces, track temps, different driver skills, etc.

Quote:
Oh, there have only been four deaths in F1 in the last 30 years and none since San Marino in '94. I think most of that has to do with increased crash safety in the cars.

There is absolutely no doubt driver safety has been increased dramatically with new car designs (particularly the nose) via Senna's death.

Unfortunately, there is still the human factor (a little OT):
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=854_1337054851

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post #297 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 09:44 AM
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Are you sure?

Thanks for the update as I had not checked Amazon in awhile. It wasn't previously available as I had a big debate with the Senna site on Facebook along with a few others about it's then non release onto Blu Ray. Someone on the Senna movie site on Facebook even had the nerve to say that it wasn't worth doing it because of the old grainy footage and there would be no improvement. I had to answer with the fact that the available footage in the film still has a higher resolution since it is on film and not at all VHS videotape. That's strange as the same type of thinking was posted by oryan_dunn! I have pre ordered it.
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post #298 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

Thanks for the update as I had not checked Amazon in awhile. It wasn't previously available as I had a big debate with the Senna site on Facebook along with a few others about it's then non release onto Blu Ray. Someone on the Senna movie site on Facebook even had the nerve to say that it wasn't worth doing it because of the old grainy footage and there would be no improvement. I had to answer with the fact that the available footage in the film still has a higher resolution since it is on film and not at all VHS videotape. That's strange as the same type of thinking was posted by oryan_dunn! I have pre ordered it.

I hope they remember to use proper English subs for the featurette this time.

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post #299 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 01:39 PM
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F1 is Entertainment...if it ISN'T, it won't exist.

F1 is racing. If you choose to view it as entertainment, that's fine, but it wouldn't cease to exist any more than weekend racers would cease to exist, since they've always existed since there were two cars to compete.

Just because the powers that be have figured out how to make a bunch of money from it doesn't mean the participants wouldn't still do it if the money wasn't there. A true fan attempts to see through all the artificial hype in whatever sport they choose to watch me thinks.

Friends used to come over to my place to watch races so I could tell them what was up because they were shocked at how dumb the announcers were. I explained that they weren't dumb, they're just doing what the producers of the television show that used racing as the raw material from which to create the show told them to say.

Which is another way of saying, if you think it's entertainment, you're likely just being a patsy to the media powers that want nothing more than to have their way with you. You do know that virtually every major sport you can name existed before the invention of television right?

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post #300 of 789 Old 05-15-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

F1 is racing. If you choose to view it as entertainment, that's fine, but it wouldn't cease to exist any more than weekend racers would cease to exist, since they've always existed since there were two cars to compete.

Just because the powers that be have figured out how to make a bunch of money from it doesn't mean the participants wouldn't still do it if the money wasn't there. A true fan attempts to see through all the artificial hype in whatever sport they choose to watch me thinks.

Friends used to come over to my place to watch races so I could tell them what was up because they were shocked at how dumb the announcers were. I explained that they weren't dumb, they're just doing what the producers of the television show that used racing as the raw material from which to create the show told them to say.

Which is another way of saying, if you think it's entertainment, you're likely just being a patsy to the media powers that want nothing more than to have their way with you. You do know that virtually every major sport you can name existed before the invention of television right?

F1 exists by the grace of sponsorship. Without fans and entertainment value F1 would cease to exist, period. It cannot continue without the commercial aspect of it. The purist, non-commercial form of motorsports is long gone, other than weekend amateur club racing perhaps (which don't depend on mega multi-million dollar budgets). Every other facet of motorsports is heavily dependent on commercialism. So like it or not, it is entertainment, just like baseball, football, etc.

To say that F1 participants would continue without the money supporting the sport is completely unrealistic and impossible. That's also true for most, if not all, professional motorsports. Purist motorsports died with the 50s and 60s.
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