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-   -   CBS O&O stations to add subchannels... (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/34-hdtv-programming/1325575-cbs-o-o-stations-add-subchannels.html)

sebenste 03-30-2011 10:55 PM

From the March 14 edition of NAB SmartBrief:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAB SmartBrief

CBS is planning its first digital subchannels, offering sports, news and programming from the network's properties. The first two offerings are projected for the third quarter in New York and Los Angeles in a bid to make more of an impact in digital broadcasting than sparse local offerings have made so far.
For those of you in the biggest markets, your pristine video is going away. I am in the Chicago market, and trust me, the PQ here is amazing. But not, apparently, for much longer.

These O&O stations include:

Baltimore: WJZ-TV (channel 13)
Boston: WBZ-TV (channel 4)
Chicago: WBBM-TV (channel 2)
Detroit: WWJ-TV (channel 62)
Denver: KCNC-TV (channel 4)
Fort Worth, Texas: KTVT (channel 11)
Los Angeles: KCBS-TV (channel 2)
Miami: WFOR-TV (channel 4)
Minneapolis: WCCO-TV (channel 4)
New York City: WCBS-TV (channel 2)
Philadelphia: KYW-TV (channel 3)
Pittsburgh: KDKA-TV (channel 2)
Sacramento: KOVR (channel 13)
San Francisco: KPIX (channel 5)

Discuss.

btokars 03-31-2011 04:22 AM

I agree. This is not good news.

steverobertson 03-31-2011 04:59 AM

Well this really sucks

JWhip 03-31-2011 05:43 AM

2 subchannels at the same time. Their main channel will be unwatchable, especially during sports. The race to the bottom is just about complete, all across the board. PQ has been dropping since the late 90's when HD broadcasting began.

jjeff 03-31-2011 06:39 AM

Bad news indeed! apparently all my comments about CBS's great looking video fell on deaf ears CBS in my market(O&O no subs) is the best by far(still some macroblocking during events like the Grammys but nothing as bad as it's competitors with sub channels) but adding subs will only make things worse. As TVs get larger and larger and better able to show the flaws of our television format the stations are doing things to make the picture look worse seems like the only thing left for decent picture quality is going to be BR. If I didn't know better I'd think Sony owned part of CBS

Rich Peterson 03-31-2011 06:45 AM

Wow, really disappointing. I've long considered myself very lucky to live in a CBS O&O market. That channel is always hands-down the best picture I get anywhere other than BD. I especially like their NFL football.

I should have known it wouldn't last forever.

John Mason 03-31-2011 07:10 AM

A disappointment for OTA viewing. Only see CBS's NYC-flagship WCBS-HD via Time Warner Cable, and it appears--at least in NYC--that stations piping HD to TWC by fiber optics deliver the main HD channels before the additional compression needed for squeezing in subchannels. Since cable viewers outnumber OTA viewers in most regions, not doing this, but instead subjecting all viewers to multicasting artifacts, seems, ahhh, 'misguided'. (With >150 HD channels now, and growing switched-digital-video use, I'm starting to see increasing motion blocking artifacts only on some non-OTA channels such as Discovery or Planet Green.) -- John

MRM4 03-31-2011 07:19 AM

Our station here in Knoxville has already cut PQ so their subchannel can show HD content. It's pretty sad. I can't imagine it eventually being worse.

humdinger70 03-31-2011 10:30 AM

OH! GODS! NO!

That about sums it up.

ak3883 03-31-2011 10:43 AM

Terrible, terrible news

Too bad we here on AVS represent about <1% of their total viewership, the tiny percentage that actually care about HD picture quality.

McDonoughDawg 03-31-2011 11:03 AM

Anyone with a link to the O&O stations?

jpr281 03-31-2011 11:18 AM

Baltimore: WJZ-TV (channel 13)
Boston: WBZ-TV (channel 4)
Chicago: WBBM-TV (channel 2)
Detroit: WWJ-TV (channel 62)
Denver: KCNC-TV (channel 4)
Fort Worth, Texas: KTVT (channel 11)
Los Angeles: KCBS-TV (channel 2)
Miami: WFOR-TV (channel 4)
Minneapolis: WCCO-TV (channel 4)
New York City: WCBS-TV (channel 2)
Philadelphia: KYW-TV (channel 3)
Pittsburgh: KDKA-TV (channel 2)
Sacramento: KOVR (channel 13)
San Francisco: KPIX (channel 5)

rezzy 03-31-2011 11:36 AM

Not where I live..*whew!* These people just don't get it, and they're supposed to be professionals!

Jakes 03-31-2011 11:55 AM

I live in the Boston area and CBS has always been the best HD channel available PQ-wise, IMO. The NFL on CBS has always CRUSHED its competitors in the PQ dept. This is a real shame.

Excuse the ignorant question, but will my FiOS CBS feed suffer, or will it only be OTA reception that suffers?

bettygunn 03-31-2011 12:11 PM

I think CBS is doing this more for two reasons other than messing up picture quality. One is to protect their spectrum space. Fact is if the proposed spectrum take away goes through channels would have to share space in the big markets. Better to share space with yourself than give it up to a competing channel. Second even though people here don't agree. The average OTA viewer who doesn't have cable would rather have many more channels than a few with great quality.

JWhip 03-31-2011 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bettygunn View Post

I think CBS is doing this more for two reasons other than messing up picture quality. One is to protect their spectrum space. Fact is if the proposed spectrum take away goes through channels would have to share space in the big markets. Better to share space with yourself than give it up to a competing channel. Second even though people here don't agree. The average OTA viewer who doesn't have cable would rather have many more channels than a few with great quality.

Catering to the lowest common denominator and on the cheap to boot seems to be the way everything here is done these days. It is a real shame.

videoguy60467 03-31-2011 06:05 PM

So much for the best PQ in Chicago from WBBM.

acebreathe 03-31-2011 06:53 PM

Thank God the only thing I watch on CBS is the NFL and March Madness. Anyone have any idea what kind of crap they plan on running on these subs?

Keenan 03-31-2011 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

2 subchannels at the same time. Their main channel will be unwatchable, especially during sports. The race to the bottom is just about complete, all across the board. PQ has been dropping since the late 90's when HD broadcasting began.

Yup, HDTV simply isn't what it used to be, when it comes to PQ nowadays, who cares who the provider is, it's all crap anyway.

Keenan 03-31-2011 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by acebreathe View Post

Thank God the only thing I watch on CBS is the NFL and March Madness. Anyone have any idea what kind of crap they plan on running on these subs?

CBS' basketball coverage is already suspect, can't imagine how bad it will get with 2 sub-channels.

peternm22 03-31-2011 07:24 PM

I get CBS Detroit via satellite up here in Canada... noooooooooooooo.

paule123 03-31-2011 09:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Yup, HDTV simply isn't what it used to be, when it comes to PQ nowadays, who cares who the provider is, it's all crap anyway.

Agreed.

Mac The Knife 03-31-2011 10:01 PM

Just wait until the FCC allows "white-space" devices in the TV band then subchannels won't matter because there'll be so much interference that terrestrial TV will be truly dead.

icemannyr 03-31-2011 10:32 PM

WCBS-DT NYC which has no sub channels has very bad PQ already.
Any time there is slight movement of objects they macroblock.
It's only going to get worse once the sub channels are added.

WPIX-DT NYC 1080i which has 3 SD sub channel has awful PQ on their HD feed.

Drewdawg 03-31-2011 10:50 PM

I'm hoping CBS in LA puts this over on KCAL as they don't show that much HD and their prime time (8-11pm) is local news. Also their daytime schedule is news & syndicated time filler (People's Court, Family Feud etc).

RemyM 04-01-2011 07:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Yup, HDTV simply isn't what it used to be, when it comes to PQ nowadays, who cares who the provider is, it's all crap anyway.

Unfortunately the new definition of HDTV has become wide-screen.

I can remember the day I got my first HDTV (30" 16:9 Sony CRT) and HD cable box. The first channel that was put on was INHD and I was blown away by how good it looked. I can't remember the last time I was blown away by a great HD picture. Enjoy the Masters next, that will be the last of the above average HDTV events.

John Mason 04-01-2011 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakes View Post

I live in the Boston area and CBS has always been the best HD channel available PQ-wise, IMO. The NFL on CBS has always CRUSHED its competitors in the PQ dept. This is a real shame.

Excuse the ignorant question, but will my FiOS CBS feed suffer, or will it only be OTA reception that suffers?

Appears that would depend on whether the master FIOS headend for your region picks up CBS OTA or it accepts a fiber-optic HD feed that can be delivered without the additional 1080i compression needed for multicasting. The latter, AIUI, would require additional hardware to encode the 'full' 1080i signal--before it's encoded with piggybacked, resolution-spoiling, artifact-inducing subchannels. -- John

John Mason 04-01-2011 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemannyr View Post

WCBS-DT NYC which has no sub channels has very bad PQ already.
Any time there is slight movement of objects they macroblock.
It's only going to get worse once the sub channels are added.

WPIX-DT NYC 1080i which has 3 SD sub channel has awful PQ on their HD feed.

Don't see any of this from CBS via NYC's TWC in Manhattan, not far from the headend. Hadn't seen it on other NYC stations either via TWC for ~10 years, which led to the suspicion--still not completely confirmed--that TWC generally gets the 'full' HD signals (pre-multicasting compression) via fiber optics from stations, not OTA (my post above). Rarely watch local stations anymore, but since I'm awaiting a FIOS option hope they aren't accepting multicast junk in NYC. -- John

coyoteaz 04-01-2011 12:54 PM

Very very few stations care enough to spend 5 figures on a second encoder just to supply local cable providers with less compressed video, especially since most cable providers are recompressing locals anyway. Since TWC NYC carries the full slate of subchannels for WPIX, WNET, WABC, and WNBC, and 256QAM channels have basically the same bandwidth as 2 8VSB channels, some simple math tells us they are not getting anything better than what is going out over the air.

Rammitinski 04-01-2011 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by acebreathe View Post

Anyone have any idea what kind of crap they plan on running on these subs?

Don't know, but my guess is it will be just that.


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