'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 196 - AVS Forum
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post #5851 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
At some point down the line, Daenerys will sail in with her army of unichs and a little help from her flying, frying friends and try to re-take it based on her family's prior claim. But make no mistake - nobody cares about her prior claim but her and it will be brute force that closes the deal, as always. 'Cause that's how Westeros rolls.
Dany has been assured that she (the Targaereyans) has support in the seven kingdoms and they will rise up to support her when she arrives to reclaim the throne.
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post #5852 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 07:58 AM
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Dany has been assured that she (the Targaereyans) has support in the seven kingdoms and they will rise up to support her when she arrives to reclaim the throne.
Thats true, many in westeros still sing their songs and await a targaeryan return to the throne. they reigned for many years uniting the 7 kingdoms and brought peace to the land. that being said those that wish for their return have no power at all.
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post #5853 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 09:54 AM
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Dany has been assured that she (the Targaereyans) has support in the seven kingdoms and they will rise up to support her when she arrives to reclaim the throne.
That doesn't mean that she has a legal claim to the throne. She plans to seize it illegally by force, as the Baratheons seized it from her father.

Renly also raised an army and planned to take the throne, even though he was not in line for succession. (His older brother Stannis comes before him.) But Renly wanted it, and believed that he had enough support to do it. (THIS IS IN THE SHOW.)

Robb Stark raised an army and planned to take the throne, and he had no blood connection to the current ruling house at all. But he felt that he needed to do it, and believed that he had enough support to do it. (THIS IS IN THE SHOW.)

If Daenerys is successful in taking the throne, she will re-establish the Targaryen dynastic line, and her heirs will legally inherit from her. Until someone in the future overthrows them and establishes their own dynastic line.

Whatever house is in power has the legal authority to pass down the throne through succession. But houses come in and out of power through war periodically in this world, and the law starts over with whoever is in charge.

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post #5854 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 10:02 AM
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Josh that is not what we were talking about. You also left out that the Baratheons overthrew the Targaryeons which is why Danny was/is in exile. It's all of the other things where you used the wiki to determine linage and throne succession. Not what has been in the show.
The only thing I used the wiki for was to clarify whether bastards can inherit from their fathers. Even if you don't consider the wiki canon, the series itself has provided plenty of evidence that bastards do not have the same rights as "legitimate" children. Look at the way Jon Snow was treated.

The series made a big deal of the fact that Ramsay was a bastard with no right to inherit from his father until his father legitimized him and officially named him a Bolton. (THIS IS IN THE SHOW.)

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post #5855 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 11:30 AM
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The ruling houses of Westeros are based on the British monarchy.

Assuming that the truth about Cersei's children never comes out, in the absence of any male heirs, Robert's daughter Myrcella would become Queen. Male heirs take priority in the ranks of inheritance, but if their aren't any male heirs, a blood daughter is next in line. This is known as "Male-Preference Cognatic Primogeniture."

Myrcella is Robert's middle child. She's younger than Joffrey but older than Tommen. Nonetheless, Tommen followed Joffrey in succession because he's male. If Tommen is killed before he can produce his own heir, the throne would go to Myrcella. If Tommen produces an heir (of either gender) before he dies, that heir will inherit the throne instead of Myrcella.

As the mother of Robert's children, Cersei is Queen Regent, but she cannot become Queen proper because she is not a Baratheon by blood.
That makes sense and why Sansa is next in line after her brothers as the heir to Winterfell and since LittleFinger, along with most others except the Bolton's, believes the boys are dead, why LF wants Sansa.
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post #5856 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 12:15 PM
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That makes sense and why Sansa is next in line after her brothers as the heir to Winterfell and since LittleFinger, along with most others except the Bolton's, believes the boys are dead, why LF wants Sansa.
Exactly. With Robb dead, Bran is next in line to be Lord of Winterfell, and Rickon after him, even though Sansa is older than both of them. But since everyone thinks that Bran and Rickon are dead, the eldest surviving daughter would be the heir to Winterfell. That's why Littlefinger wants to marry Sansa so badly.

Ned's oldest surviving son Jon Snow isn't even in the mix here, because he's a bastard and because he joined the Night's Watch (which requires members to cede all family rights, titles and obligations).

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post #5857 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 12:42 PM
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Show me an instance IN THE SHOW where ANY woman in ANY kingdom of Westeros has ruled ANYTHING. Women DON'T rule, in the SHOW. Dany is not, and may never be in Westeros. Just because you think that Sansa can rule Winterfell, does not mean it's true.
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post #5858 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 02:20 PM
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The woman LF pushed through the skyhole ruled the Vale...

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #5859 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by John dhein View Post
Show me an instance IN THE SHOW where ANY woman in ANY kingdom of Westeros has ruled ANYTHING. Women DON'T rule, in the SHOW. Dany is not, and may never be in Westeros. Just because you think that Sansa can rule Winterfell, does not mean it's true.
Lyssa Arryn ruled the Vale

Misandre rules my fantasies...
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post #5860 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 02:53 PM
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The woman LF pushed through the skyhole ruled the Vale...
Lyssa was regent for her son, who will rule when he comes of age. Presumably Littlefinger, having married her, is now regent. He may have married Robbie's mom, but that doesn't put him in the line of succession, I wouldn't think. The same would be true for Margie and Tommen: she's not in the line of succession no matter what. But then, after Tommen, who's next?

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post #5861 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
Lyssa was regent for her son, who will rule when he comes of age. Presumably Littlefinger, having married her, is now regent. He may have married Robbie's mom, but that doesn't put him in the line of succession, I wouldn't think. The same would be true for Margie and Tommen: she's not in the line of succession no matter what. But then, after Tommen, who's next?


Unless Sansa marries Robyn, then I think he would become King and her Queen.


Not sure we've seen rules set forth in the show if you no longer have any remaining males in lineage. I would guess it would scale down to "lesser" men that are still of the original line, but since there are none for Robert, my guess would be Stannis would have the strongest claim. Its something we will have to watch and see play out
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post #5862 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 03:30 PM
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I know this is a novel concept,this is a fictional show so in the grand scheme of things who cares??Just watch and enjoy the show.I realize this is hard for some

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post #5863 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 03:32 PM
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The original post that caused the later discussion and riffing stated that TV Show GOT ruling class / Monarchy was based on the English system .. if, in fact, it is based on the English Monarchy, which I personally don't believe since the ruling system we see on the show has been around much longer than England, then women can rule and did .. Mary I, Elizabeth I, Mary II, Anne ..

England has never had a law that would disallow a woman to sit on the throne .. in fact, the primary reason most rulers were men is they had to be warriors as well as rulers .. women were never trained to fight .. Brienne of Tarth is a good example of an exception when you look at GOT ..

If we really want to look at real history as it relates to GOT, Lady Jane Grey of England could have provided inspiration for Cersei Lannister ..

The whole story we've viewed so far has been borrowed in bits and pieces from History ..

Colossus of Rhoads .. Braavos massive statue that guards the harbor ...
The Order of the Knights of Malta base city became a center for slave trading ... Meereen ..
Moses delivers the Hebrews from bondage .. Daenerys Targaryen thus far .. and there are other Biblical bits that have been used in her story as well ..
The Wall .. The Great Wall of China ..
English Channel .. Narrow Sea ..
The Red Faith ... Zoroastrianism

I could go on, but I think you get the idea ..
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post #5864 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hooked01 View Post
Dany has been assured that she (the Targaereyans) has support in the seven kingdoms and they will rise up to support her when she arrives to reclaim the throne.
I've always doubted it. The people that tell her that are those that have something to gain from Dany sailing her army into Westeros. I think your average commoner would be terrified to see an army of Unsullied and dragons invading from the east. No matter who was leading them. Also the last Targaryen ruler was a total nut job that tried to burn down King's Landing. Although that may not be common knowledge.
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post #5865 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 05:26 PM
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Lyssa Arryn ruled the Vale

Misandre rules my fantasies...
Nope. Rob ruled The Vale. Lyssa was his mother and regent.
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post #5866 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 05:27 PM
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Lyssa was regent for her son, who will rule when he comes of age. Presumably Littlefinger, having married her, is now regent. He may have married Robbie's mom, but that doesn't put him in the line of succession, I wouldn't think. The same would be true for Margie and Tommen: she's not in the line of succession no matter what. But then, after Tommen, who's next?
Stannis.
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post #5867 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
The original post that caused the later discussion and riffing stated that TV Show GOT ruling class / Monarchy was based on the English system .. if, in fact, it is based on the English Monarchy, which I personally don't believe since the ruling system we see on the show has been around much longer than England, then women can rule and did .. Mary I, Elizabeth I, Mary II, Anne ..

England has never had a law that would disallow a woman to sit on the throne .. in fact, the primary reason most rulers were men is they had to be warriors as well as rulers .. women were never trained to fight .. Brienne of Tarth is a good example of an exception when you look at GOT ..

If we really want to look at real history as it relates to GOT, Lady Jane Grey of England could have provided inspiration for Cersei Lannister ..

The whole story we've viewed so far has been borrowed in bits and pieces from History ..

Colossus of Rhoads .. Braavos massive statue that guards the harbor ...
The Order of the Knights of Malta base city became a center for slave trading ... Meereen ..
Moses delivers the Hebrews from bondage .. Daenerys Targaryen thus far .. and there are other Biblical bits that have been used in her story as well ..
The Wall .. The Great Wall of China ..
English Channel .. Narrow Sea ..
The Red Faith ... Zoroastrianism

I could go on, but I think you get the idea ..
If women could rule, Myrcella would be Queen. Tommen's King = No females can rule.
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post #5868 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 05:58 PM
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If women could rule, Myrcella would be Queen. Tommen's King = No females can rule.
No females can rule UNLESS there are no more males available in the line.

Joffery and Tommen had 2 eligible uncles (now Renly's dead) so as people keep saying... especially Ned... Stannis would be next in line. If he was gone, then Myrcella might have a chance.
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post #5869 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 06:45 PM
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If women could rule, Myrcella would be Queen. Tommen's King = No females can rule.
My post was based on the dude that posted Westeros ruling is based on England .. I have no idea if in Westeros women can rule .. in England, they can .. that's it .. go back and read the last few pages ..

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post #5870 of 6039 Old 06-24-2014, 08:18 PM
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If women could rule, Myrcella would be Queen. Tommen's King = No females can rule.
Dany's gonna be pissed when she gets to Kings Landing and finds out she's not allowed to rule because she's female.
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post #5871 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 07:44 AM
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Nope. Rob ruled The Vale. Lyssa was his mother and regent.
True but Lyssa was the enforcer, if Robbyn ruled then the little man would have been flown out the moon door.

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post #5872 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 07:54 AM
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My post was based on the dude that posted Westeros ruling is based on England .. I have no idea if in Westeros women can rule .. in England, they can .. that's it .. go back and read the last few pages ..
I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying that from the show, there is STRONG evidence that women don't rule.

And YES that WILL be a problem for Dany, especially if she continues to be unable to control her toys/pets.
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post #5873 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 08:37 AM
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Dany's gonna be pissed when she gets to Kings Landing and finds out she's not allowed to rule because she's female.:roll eyes:
A few seasons back she is walking through the throne room in the red keep, and its in ruins, no roof and full of ashes or was it snow with a burnt look. Maybe she did get pissed.
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post #5874 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 08:50 AM
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A few seasons back she is walking through the throne room in the red keep, and its in ruins, no roof and full of ashes or was it snow with a burnt look. Maybe she did get pissed.
Was that a flash-forward or foreshadowing? Or a "vision" of the future?

In that case, the show spoiled itself! I recommend a thread ban.
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post #5875 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
The original post that caused the later discussion and riffing stated that TV Show GOT ruling class / Monarchy was based on the English system .. if, in fact, it is based on the English Monarchy, which I personally don't believe since the ruling system we see on the show has been around much longer than England, then women can rule and did .. Mary I, Elizabeth I, Mary II, Anne ..
England is a Male-Preference Cognatic Primogeniture system. Male heirs always take priority over female heirs, even if the female is older. A female can only become queen if she has no legitimate brothers.

Current Queen Elizabeth II is the eldest daughter of her father, George VI (the "King's Speech" guy). George VI had no sons, just two daughters: Elizabeth and Margaret.

Looking back a little, King Edward VII as the second child of Queen Victoria. He had an older sister (also named Victoria) who did not become Queen when their mother died. Edward inherited the throne because he was the eldest male heir, and males always take priority if there are any. The second Victoria was titled Princess Royal of England, and later became the German Empress through marriage. She was never Queen of England.

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post #5876 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 09:16 AM
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England is a Male-Preference Cognatic Primogeniture system. Male heirs always take priority over female heirs, even if the female is older. A female can only become queen if she has no legitimate brothers.

Current Queen Elizabeth II is the eldest daughter of her father, George VI (the "King's Speech" guy). George VI had no sons, just two daughters: Elizabeth and Margaret.

Looking back a little, King Edward VII as the second child of Queen Victoria. He had an older sister (also named Victoria) who did not become Queen when their mother died. Edward inherited the throne because he was the eldest male heir, and males always take priority if there are any. The second Victoria was titled Princess Royal of England, and later became the German Empress through marriage. She was never Queen of England.
You can call it whatever you like .. the point of my post was the law ..


"England has never had a law that would disallow a woman to sit on the throne .. in fact, the primary reason most rulers were men is they had to be warriors as well as rulers .. women were never trained to fight .. "

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post #5877 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 10:06 AM
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Dany's gonna be pissed when she gets to Kings Landing and finds out she's not allowed to rule because she's female.
Yeah but Dany's got dragons, so she's the last person I'd want to have pissed at me Just look at what happened to the owner of the Unsullied.
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post #5878 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 10:07 AM
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You can call it whatever you like .. the point of my post was the law ..


"England has never had a law that would disallow a woman to sit on the throne .. in fact, the primary reason most rulers were men is they had to be warriors as well as rulers .. women were never trained to fight .. "
I'm not calling it what I like. I'm calling it by the official name of how the law works. The law in England in fact does prohibit a woman from sitting on the throne if there are any eligible men available. A woman can only rule as a last resort when there are no men to carry the bloodline.

From what I've seen on the show, I believe this is how things work in the world of Game of Thrones as well. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it. Nothing that has been seen in the show or posted in this thread contradicts the Male-Preference Cognatic Primogeniture model.

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I don't remember exactly where, but hasn't Littlefinger outright said that his designs on Sansa were because he wants Winterfell? Didn't he admit that to Varys or something?

As far as Littlefinger knows, all of the Stark male heirs are dead.

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post #5880 of 6039 Old 06-25-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I'm not calling it what I like. I'm calling it by the official name of how the law works. The law in England in fact does prohibit a woman from sitting on the throne if there are any eligible men available. A woman can only rule as a last resort when there are no men to carry the bloodline.

From what I've seen on the show, I believe this is how things work in the world of Game of Thrones as well. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it. Nothing that has been seen in the show or posted in this thread contradicts the Male-Preference Cognatic Primogeniture model.
Whatever you say, jefe ..

Uncle Willie


Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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