'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 214 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6391 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post
I just don't see this happening. Every time I expect her to step up and show some backbone she lets me down.

She is evolving as a character. She is an unknown right now as we don't know what she plans to do. Littlefinger has been doing an excellent job at molding her into a hopeful formidable force.


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post #6392 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 12:29 PM
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She is evolving as a character. She is an unknown right now as we don't know what she plans to do. Littlefinger has been doing an excellent job at molding her into a hopeful formidable force.
I don't see it. Sansa gets suckered by every guy she meets. Even strangers like the ex-knight who convinced her to wear the poison necklace.

Then she trusted Littlefinger and he delivered her to Ramsey. So she hasn't learned very much at all. Never questions, always follows blindly.


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post #6393 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 12:49 PM
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Yes it will be fun to. I think Sansa has leaned a lot in her life, now with Littlefinger's couching she gets Winterfell back for the Stark's and just maybe she gets the Dreadfort under control of the Starks, and the rest of the Lord's of the North back to the Stark banners. As for Roose Bolton, Petyr Baelish has a little score settle on Kats behalf. Her youngest brother will be the Lord of Winterfell when he pops back up sometime down the road. And winter is still coming Jon Snow.
I hadn't thought of the Petyr/Roose confrontation from that angle. Tywin is dead already, but Walder and Roose definitely gonna get what's coming.

Jorah went overseas to escape being sent to the wall for his slave trading. Or was that his dead dad? Did the bear ever tell why he was sent to the wall?
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post #6394 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 01:09 PM
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...Jorah went overseas to escape being sent to the wall for his slave trading. Or was that his dead dad? Did the bear ever tell why he was sent to the wall?
I don't recall them saying how Jeor came to join the Nightswatch, but not everyone is "sent" to the wall. While the watch has more than its fair share of ne'er-do-wells and miscreants, there are some that see it as an honourable life. ie. Ned's brother Benjen, Jon, Maester Aemon (a Targaryen), etc. From his demeanor and status, I would assume that Jeor joined of his own volition as well.
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post #6395 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 03:34 PM
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I don't recall them saying how Jeor came to join the Nightswatch, but not everyone is "sent" to the wall. While the watch has more than its fair share of ne'er-do-wells and miscreants, there are some that see it as an honourable life. ie. Ned's brother Benjen, Jon, Maester Aemon (a Targaryen), etc. From his demeanor and status, I would assume that Jeor joined of his own volition as well.
Lord Jeor Mormont went to the Night's Watch to let his son, Ser Jorah Mormont to become Lord of house Mormont on Bear Island until Ned Stark found out about the slave trade he was into to support his wife Lynesse Hightower of Oldtown. By time Stark got there Jorah and his wife sailed away, she going home to Oldtown and he onto the free cities. Lord Mormont went to the wall to be of service and became the Lord Commander in a short time.
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post #6396 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 03:56 PM
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I don't see it. Sansa gets suckered by every guy she meets. Even strangers like the ex-knight who convinced her to wear the poison necklace.

Then she trusted Littlefinger and he delivered her to Ramsey. So she hasn't learned very much at all. Never questions, always follows blindly.
Did you see the last episode, I would think and it look to me that Littlefinger delivered Ramsey's and Roose's executioner to the front door. Sansa knows who killed her mother, brother, and yes dad. It was the Lannister with a bad bit of treason on the part of the Boltons now banner men of the Lannister's. I could see the expression on her face change as she was luring them in. And winter is coming Jon Snow.
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post #6397 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 05:10 PM
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Did you see the last episode, I would think and it look to me that Littlefinger delivered Ramsey's and Roose's executioner to the front door. Sansa knows who killed her mother, brother, and yes dad. It was the Lannister with a bad bit of treason on the part of the Boltons now banner men of the Lannister's. I could see the expression on her face change as she was luring them in.
And what evidence at all has been shown that indicates Sansa has any clue what to do about that? She hasn't had an independent thought since the show started and learned no practical skills at all. Every action she has taken has been because someone told her to.

So unless Littlefinger is planning to stick around and tell her specfically the difference between poison and spices and which end of a sword is the dangerous bit I expect she will do exactly as told and just follow the court etiquette after being slightly angry for a few seconds.


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post #6398 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 06:36 PM
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And what evidence at all has been shown that indicates Sansa has any clue what to do about that? She hasn't had an independent thought since the show started and learned no practical skills at all. Every action she has taken has been because someone told her to.

So unless Littlefinger is planning to stick around and tell her specfically the difference between poison and spices and which end of a sword is the dangerous bit I expect she will do exactly as told and just follow the court etiquette after being slightly angry for a few seconds.
All true, but remember what the serving woman said to her: "the North remembers". Who says Sansa has to do the job herself when she has allies all around the North that "remember"? Who knows how the show writers will take this arc.
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post #6399 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 08:39 PM
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All true, but remember what the serving woman said to her: "the North remembers". Who says Sansa has to do the job herself when she has allies all around the North that "remember"? Who knows how the show writers will take this arc.


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post #6400 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 08:55 PM
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All true, but remember what the serving woman said to her: "the North remembers". Who says Sansa has to do the job herself when she has allies all around the North that "remember"?
Which is also true, but will she have the initiative to contact them?

And if Sansa does will she have a plan in mind or as usual take their advice to resolve the situation and find she was being used all along just to further the goals of someone else?


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post #6401 of 7706 Old 04-28-2015, 11:10 PM
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Which is also true, but will she have the initiative to contact them?

And if Sansa does will she have a plan in mind or as usual take their advice to resolve the situation and find she was being used all along just to further the goals of someone else?
Sansa has a lot of motivation, and we need to remember that Petyr Baelish does also. Sansa mother Kat was the only women he ever loved. Petyr Baelish has been training her for a leadership position from the time Joffrey was killed. He had his reasons for that along with Margaery Tyrell's grandmother, Olenna Redwyne the Queen of Thorns if you can believe what she said to Margaery about the death of Joffrey.
And don't ever forget that Winter is Coming, Jon Snow.
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post #6402 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 06:44 AM
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I think it still remains to be seen whether Sansa's character has grown to the point where she can be the architect of her own future. Even now, her life has been dictated by the actions of others. Baelish might care for Sansa to some degree, but he's not doing what he's doing for Sansa's benefit... he essentially orchestrated the path Sansa is currently on since "rescuing" her from King's Landing, without cluing her into his plans until she was in a position where she really didn't have any other choice.

So my view of Sansa is: show me the money! Until she performs a completely independent act solely for her own benefit, without having been forced/guided/prodded to do so, then in my eyes, she'll always be a leaf blowing in the wind, never in control of her own destiny.
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post #6403 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 06:57 AM
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I think it still remains to be seen whether Sansa's character has grown to the point where she can be the architect of her own future. Even now, her life has been dictated by the actions of others. Baelish might care for Sansa to some degree, but he's not doing what he's doing for Sansa's benefit... he essentially orchestrated the path Sansa is currently on since "rescuing" her from King's Landing, without cluing her into his plans until she was in a position where she really didn't have any other choice.

So my view of Sansa is: show me the money! Until she performs a completely independent act solely for her own benefit, without having been forced/guided/prodded to do so, then in my eyes, she'll always be a leaf blowing in the wind, never in control of her own destiny.
I actually think she just did.

She previously surprised Littlefinger by easing him out of a VERY tight spot in the Aerye, at which point she seemed to leave childish things behind.

Now she was a a crossroads (literally) at Moat Caitlin, where she decided to play in Littlefinger's charade, despite her remonstrations to him that these are the people who killed her family.

The transition to a lady's smile from a severe look when she first encounters Bolton Sr. was chilling, I thought. I'm getting more and more interested in this.

None of the main characters have done anything by themselves. They are doing things independently, but always have a 'teacher'. Sansa with Littlefinger, Cersei and Joffrey. Arya with her dance instructor, several others and most of all the Dog. Jon with Ned, Lord Mormont, Mance and now the last Baratheon.

I think she's just evolving last and will play Littlefinger's game until it's time to call in all debts owed.
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post #6404 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 07:46 AM
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Sansa does have a wedding coming up, and custom does require that the Lord's of the North be there as bannermen of the Stark's. All know what happened at the Red Wedding. Will history repeat itself? That could be an interesting event. What did Jon Snow say to Stannis Baratheon when Stannis showed him a not from Bear Island and Lady Mormont, the North only supports one King, and his name is Stark. Jon told Stannis that the people of the North are a bit like the Free Folk from the other side of the wall. I have an idea that the so-called power structure of the North changes on that wedding day. Jon will be there as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and a family member. When the fun starts Jon steps forward and offers a life in the Night's Watch rather then death to the men of the Dreadfort. The 2 traders, Roose and Ramsey are killed in an unkind manner as they have killed in the past. By the way the youngest of the Stark brothers just happens to be hidden somewhere in the west and could come home to Winterfell for the wedding. Winter is Coming Jon Snow.
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post #6405 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 07:47 AM
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Looks like I'm in total disagreement with a large portion of posters here. I don't feel this season has been dragging at all. This is a complex story, and needs to be fleshed out. It is GOT, not Strikeback or Banshee (both of which I love for other reasons).

Attention spans seem to be at an all time low, and isn't anyone into delayed gratification anymore?

Ah, first world problems.
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post #6406 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 07:48 AM
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I think it still remains to be seen whether Sansa's character has grown to the point where she can be the architect of her own future. Even now, her life has been dictated by the actions of others. Baelish might care for Sansa to some degree, but he's not doing what he's doing for Sansa's benefit... he essentially orchestrated the path Sansa is currently on since "rescuing" her from King's Landing, without cluing her into his plans until she was in a position where she really didn't have any other choice.

So my view of Sansa is: show me the money! Until she performs a completely independent act solely for her own benefit, without having been forced/guided/prodded to do so, then in my eyes, she'll always be a leaf blowing in the wind, never in control of her own destiny.

^^^ This

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I actually think she just did.

She previously surprised Littlefinger by easing him out of a VERY tight spot in the Aerye, at which point she seemed to leave childish things behind.

That was not "a completely independent act solely for her own benefit" ..


At the end of last season, we were presented with the New Sansa .. as, in shadows, she walked down the stairs .. we are led to believe she is now the "Dark Sansa" .. I think, when and if she actually marries Ramsay Snow Bolton, sees first hand what a psycho he actually is and gets a look at the Bolton Filet Method Ginsu Knife Flay, then takes some sort of action, we will know one way or the other ..


In the meantime, she's not going to magically unite the North in the short term, she just got there .. she is simply a pawn in The Game of Baelish .. and he could care less as long as what moves he makes advances his Game .. and, Reek / Theon is getting too much screen time to not begin to come into play at some point ..


Lopping Janos Slynt's head off was quite satisfying for me .. the man even had a smarmy name .. a weasel if there ever was one .. good on Jon .. and a clean single stroke, he's just a chip off the old man's block ..


The kid playing Jon's squire or whatever .. ?? Looks devious, sneaky, untrustworthy, shifty to me .. and I believe it's the same kid that arrowed Ygritte
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post #6407 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:14 AM
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^^^ This




That was not "a completely independent act solely for her own benefit" ..


At the end of last season, we were presented with the New Sansa .. as, in shadows, she walked down the stairs .. we are led to believe she is now the "Dark Sansa" .. I think, when and if she actually marries Ramsay Snow Bolton, sees first hand what a psycho he actually is and gets a look at the Bolton Filet Method Ginsu Knife Flay, then takes some sort of action, we will know one way or the other ..


In the meantime, she's not going to magically unite the North in the short term, she just got there .. she is simply a pawn in The Game of Baelish .. and he could care less as long as what moves he makes advances his Game .. and, Reek / Theon is getting too much screen time to not begin to come into play at some point ..


Lopping Janos Slynt's head off was quite satisfying for me .. the man even had a smarmy name .. a weasel if there ever was one .. good on Jon .. and a clean single stroke, he's just a chip off the old man's block ..


The kid playing Jon's squire or whatever .. ?? Looks devious, sneaky, untrustworthy, shifty to me .. and I believe it's the same kid that arrowed Ygritte

Yes there is much to consider, how about this. Reek / Theon is getting too much screen time to not begin to come into play at some point ..
Who better to care out the killing of the 2 traders Roose and Ramsay.
As for the kid, Samwell Tarly told him to fight as Sam the Slayer was getting on the elevator to go up to bring Jon down. I for one was sad to see Ygritte die. It was just great every time she told Jon Snow you know nothing.
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post #6408 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:20 AM
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Looks like I'm in total disagreement with a large portion of posters here. I don't feel this season has been dragging at all. This is a complex story, and needs to be fleshed out.

I lean the same way .. it's been great so far .. and easily can be seen as building up a collision course to some sort of dynamic / Westeros Changing event of some sort .. that's been Benioff and Weiss style from the get go ..


However, I don't think we're going to see any repeat of a Red Wedding .. that is not Benioff and Weiss style .. been there, done that ..


If I had a wish that could come true, it would be that Arya's training get on the fast track and then she gets thrown into the general population ASAP .. that could be a "Game Changer" .. .. her, Tyrion and Jon are still my favorite characters
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post #6409 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:27 AM
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I will agree that Sansa has shown some growth - she was able to perform favourably in situations she's been forced into, but I consider these baby steps I would equate her situation to someone who's not traveling a path of their own choosing, but showing the ability to avoid the little bumps along that road they've been forced.

Should she gain an advantage in a relationship with Ramsay (if in fact they are wed), in the same way Maergery has with Joffrey/Tommen, and Daenerys with Khal Drogo, then I would consider that a legitimate step up.
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post #6410 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:30 AM
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Yes there is much to consider, how about this. Reek / Theon is getting too much screen time to not begin to come into play at some point ..
Who better to care out the killing of the 2 traders Roose and Ramsay.
As for the kid, Samwell Tarly told him to fight as Sam the Slayer was getting on the elevator to go up to bring Jon down. I for one was sad to see Ygritte die. It was just great every time she told Jon Snow you know nothing.
Yeah, on the kid .. he came into play as a farmboy that was the best archer in his village .. he escaped the mass killing .. I just think he looks shifty every time he's on screen .. don't know if that means anything .. obviously, when he arrowed Ygritte he did not know about her and Jon, but he did have this cold blooded self satisfied look on his face even then ..


I'm surprised no one has commented on Gregor "Zombie Mountain" Clegane yet ..

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post #6411 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:39 AM
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It felt like a leap for me to that Sansa went along with Littlefinger's plan to join and marry Ramsey. Perhaps she did it because she is still very weak and had really nowhere else to go (defeatist attitude). She's ever been the revenge type, maybe she is changing, but at what cost to her.
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post #6412 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:43 AM
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I gotta say, Margaery Tyrell was just flat out killing it on Sundays episode ..
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post #6413 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:46 AM
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Yeah, on the kid .. he came into play as a farmboy that was the best archer in his village .. he escaped the mass killing .. I just think he looks shifty every time he's on screen .. don't know if that means anything .. obviously, when he arrowed Ygritte he did not know about her and Jon, but he did have this cold blooded self satisfied look on his face even then ..
Uh, he saw Ygritte kill one of his parents. That might have been his motivation.
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post #6414 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 08:49 AM
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Yeah, on the kid .. he came into play as a farmboy that was the best archer in his village .. he escaped the mass killing .. I just think he looks shifty every time he's on screen .. don't know if that means anything .. obviously, when he arrowed Ygritte he did not know about her and Jon, but he did have this cold blooded self satisfied look on his face even then ..
Well... I can understand a bit - she was there killing people in his village when the Thenns killed and ate his parents in front of him. I'd be self satisfied too.

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I'm surprised no one has commented on Gregor "Zombie Mountain" Clegane yet ..
I noticed... I'm sure he'll be awakened when he can do the most damage possible.
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post #6415 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 09:33 AM
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I noticed... I'm sure he'll be awakened when he can do the most damage possible.
And surely working for Qyburn .. we need to give him a new name .. FrankenMountain .. ?? and bring in Rick Grimes ..


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post #6416 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 09:40 AM
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Uh, he saw Ygritte kill one of his parents. That might have been his motivation.
Well, there is that .. .. completely forgot ..

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Not to mention that Ygritte had an arrow poised to enter Jon....

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post #6418 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
I gotta say, Margaery Tyrell was just flat out killing it on Sundays episode ..
I think she's overplaying her hand. If mama were around she'd tell her to cool it with taunting Cersei. That's a woman you don't want to openly f with.
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post #6419 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post
I think she's overplaying her hand. If mama were around she'd tell her to cool it with taunting Cersei. That's a woman you don't want to openly f with.
Very true, but still .. she's wrapping Tommen around her .. er .. finger .. .. it feels like Cersei's grip is weakening anyway, even a bit of dialog on that Sunday, I think ..

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post #6420 of 7706 Old 04-29-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post
None of the main characters have done anything by themselves. They are doing things independently, but always have a 'teacher'. Sansa with Littlefinger, Cersei and Joffrey. Arya with her dance instructor, several others and most of all the Dog. Jon with Ned, Lord Mormont, Mance and now the last Baratheon.
Not true at all.

The rest of the characters are introduced to someone or something and then decide of their own volition how they use that knowledge and make their own decisions as to what action they will take.Their only restrictions are the hierarchy.

Arya decided to stay with the Hound only to get to the Eyrie, then left him to travel across the sea alone. Dany goes wherever and doesn't even think about the consequences. Jon Snow betrayed Ygritte to protect the Wall and took over the battle. Robb was his own strategist and that was his downfall. Bran and Hodor are on their own quest because Bran wanted to go North. Brienne should give up but continues regardless against all common sense. Cersei, Littlefinger, Tyrion etc. etc. all have their own schemes and work them around the etiquette of society they are forced to follow ...

Sansa has made no decisions. Even at Moat Caitlin. She was told what she should do and she did it. Just as she has done whenever a random stranger has told her the course of action to take.

If she had turned away, decided to leave Littlefinger or just said "No. I will find another way." that would have been something new. But that what would require her to think for herself, make plans and learn to do things by herself.

The vast majority of the characters are architects of their own destiny even if those choices lead to their deaths. In a lot of those cases it's the characters' stubbornness to follow the advice of someone else that is their undoing.
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