'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 244 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7291 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 09:43 AM
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George has provided B&W a complete outline of all material pending in Books 6 and 7 ..
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post #7292 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
Knowing how everything is going to end is one thing. Getting to that point is something totally different. You still have to create everything in the middle. I'm guessing he knows how he wants to get there, he just needs to fill in the middle parts. That is not as easy as it sounds especially with all of the moving pieces there are. B&W will need to do their own thing, but that's OK as we'll be able to compare what they created vs what GRRM does. He's a slow writer to begin with so eventually they would surpass him.
Well...That's kind of my point. Context really matters as the journey is as important if not more important than the end in a good story. And while Benioff & Weiss can claim "well Shireen dies eventually in the unwritten books" (something only GRRM can confirm that I'm aware of) the context of how she dies is paramount.

And the way B&W executed her was pretty weak IMO. No idea if GRRM had a more elegantly crafted demise for her, but B&W have put us in a world where a relatively wise leader believes his claim to the throne can be furthered by becoming a "Kinslayer"? And of course that one of the leading military geniuses in Westeros can't defend his camp from sabotage in the first place? That was a clunky journey at best to get us to a pretty awful place IMO. I'm worried about them going forward with only an outline...

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post #7293 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DaMavs View Post
Well...That's kind of my point. Context really matters as the journey is as important if not more important than the end in a good story. And while Benioff & Weiss can claim "well Shireen dies eventually in the unwritten books" (something only GRRM can confirm that I'm aware of) the context of how she dies is paramount.

And the way B&W executed her was pretty weak IMO. No idea if GRRM had a more elegantly crafted demise for her, but B&W have put us in a world where a relatively wise leader believes his claim to the throne can be furthered by becoming a "Kinslayer"? And of course that one of the leading military geniuses in Westeros can't defend his camp from sabotage in the first place? That was a clunky journey at best to get us to a pretty awful place IMO. I'm worried about them going forward with only an outline...
While I agree that the sabotage was a bit weak, that he would believe his cause could be furthered by his actions is not and is completely plausible in the context of the story. He has direct evidence of the forces he is trying to harness.

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post #7294 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 11:51 AM
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Well...That's kind of my point. Context really matters as the journey is as important if not more important than the end in a good story. And while Benioff & Weiss can claim "well Shireen dies eventually in the unwritten books" (something only GRRM can confirm that I'm aware of) the context of how she dies is paramount.

And the way B&W executed her was pretty weak IMO. No idea if GRRM had a more elegantly crafted demise for her, but B&W have put us in a world where a relatively wise leader believes his claim to the throne can be furthered by becoming a "Kinslayer"? And of course that one of the leading military geniuses in Westeros can't defend his camp from sabotage in the first place? That was a clunky journey at best to get us to a pretty awful place IMO. I'm worried about them going forward with only an outline...

They got that from GRRM, watch the "making of" for the video. They were surprised when they found out. As far as Stannis he has long been swayed by the religious side of things. His last holdout was doing anything against his daughter. His men being stuck and then to have the attack just emphasized things for him and pushed him over the edge. We can see a drastic change in look for him between his talking to his daughter and the sacrifice scene. They don't have the time on this show to go over all of the struggle he would have with this decision. I thought they did a fairly good job with the time they had. While it seemed overnight the decision was made weeks could have passed between scenes. I've seen a few comments about the decision seeming "quick" but when we look at it, "show time" it really wasn't.


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post #7295 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 12:30 PM
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^^^ and maybe Stannis is a delightful chap who regales his men with songs and tales; we're just never shown it. You can always invent imaginary scenes to fanwank any problem away :-)
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post #7296 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 12:39 PM
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I think they tried to show it visually, but maybe people didn't pick up on it. Here are pics of him from episode 1 and then episode 9

I think there is a dramatic change in look which meant to convey the struggle of the choice he made and situation he was in.


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post #7297 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 12:47 PM
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He looks tired and beaten down. Still hate him though.
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post #7298 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
George has provided B&W a complete outline of all material pending in Books 6 and 7 ..
Which says little about how detailed it is, and whether it includes the arcs for all the major characters. I can imagine an outcome, and then imagine all sorts of different fates for any number of characters who do not directly impact that outcome.

It also says little about the obligation of B&W to stick closely to that outline, any more than they have to the existing books.

And finally, it says nothing about GRRM's right to continue the saga beyond the point where it stops on TV, should he choose to, assuming that they are still even congruent at that point.
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post #7299 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 02:24 PM
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Kinda funny, I usually re watch GOT two or three times during the week. I keep shying away from the latest one though. That Shireen scene is getting more brutal the more I think about it. Heart wrenching really.
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post #7300 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 02:39 PM
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what's ironic about the Spoiler thread vs the non-spoiler one is that if GRRM doesn't release the last 2 books soon then this thread will become the Spoiler thread
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post #7301 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 02:56 PM
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what's ironic about the Spoiler thread vs the non-spoiler one is that if GRRM doesn't release the last 2 books soon then this thread will become the Spoiler thread

Technically it already has (The Shireen scene).


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post #7302 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 03:33 PM
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Which says little about how detailed it is, and whether it includes the arcs for all the major characters. I can imagine an outcome, and then imagine all sorts of different fates for any number of characters who do not directly impact that outcome.

It also says little about the obligation of B&W to stick closely to that outline, any more than they have to the existing books.

And finally, it says nothing about GRRM's right to continue the saga beyond the point where it stops on TV, should he choose to, assuming that they are still even congruent at that point.
I think even a broad brush outline is going to hit all major areas GRRM wants to hit .. which, in a nutshell, is what B&W have been doing all along anyway .. there is no real room for much nuance at this point ..


I don't think GRRM is going to worry a whole lot about anything beyond where the series ends .. however, I'm sure he would not mind collecting another $15 million per season if the show goes beyond 7 ..
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post #7303 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 03:54 PM
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I still find it hard to believe that GRRM will be OK with the show spoiling the books (especially the ending)...I wonder how this will effect sales of the final book...yes the die hard fans will still buy it but it's sure to make a major dent in sales figures...this will be the first time in history that something like this happens...a TV show spoiling the end of a current book series (and a very popular one to boot)...I think GRRM will do everything to try and get HBO to delay the final season either by splitting up the final season over 1 year like Breaking Bad and Mad Men or taking an extended break between seasons like The Sopranos did or as a last resort getting HBO to turn the final season into a big budget feature film
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post #7304 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 04:11 PM
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I still find it hard to believe that GRRM will be OK with the show spoiling the books (especially the ending)
You also have to wonder how the show's forward motion might effect his writing in the future. Looks like he will be well behind whatever the show does.

Not that he didn't share some outlines for their benefit, but judging from what I understand, he changes his mind so many times drafting his final published chapters (and thus the slow pace) you have to think it's effecting his work at this point.

I could be wrong, but anyone who thinks his fame is not slowing completion of the project is foolish. Can't say I would play it any differently. Can't fault it.
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post #7305 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 04:15 PM
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I think even a broad brush outline is going to hit all major areas GRRM wants to hit .. which, in a nutshell, is what B&W have been doing all along anyway .. there is no real room for much nuance at this point ..

I don't think GRRM is going to worry a whole lot about anything beyond where the series ends .. however, I'm sure he would not mind collecting another $15 million per season if the show goes beyond 7 ..
I disagree. If the TV series ends before the last book is published, as is very likely, there will be a great deal of pressure on Martin (including his own pride, of which there is plenty) to offer strong incentive for both readers and viewers to buy that book. The best incentive I can imagine is knowing that the book includes a story that goes on past the ending of the TV series.

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post #7306 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 04:19 PM
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I still find it hard to believe that GRRM will be OK with the show spoiling the books (especially the ending)...I wonder how this will effect sales of the final book...yes the die hard fans will still buy it but it's sure to make a major dent in sales figures...this will be the first time in history that something like this happens...a TV show spoiling the end of a current book series (and a very popular one to boot)...I think GRRM will do everything to try and get HBO to delay the final season either by splitting up the final season over 1 year like Breaking Bad and Mad Men or taking an extended break between seasons like The Sopranos did or as a last resort getting HBO to turn the final season into a big budget feature film

He has no choice at this point and no real ground to stand on. He knows that this might have been the outcome and now 5 years later history has caught up with him. He recently stopped to tours because I think he got spooked about how far along the show is. He has ~2 years and that really isn't enough time at the pace he writes.

Of course I did lol at a theory I heard on a podcast. GRRM has been "faking" and will release two books in close succession.


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post #7307 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 04:20 PM
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You also have to wonder how the show's forward motion might effect his writing in the future. Looks like he will be well behind whatever the show does.

Not that he didn't share some outlines for their benefit, but judging from what I understand, he changes his mind so many times drafting his final published chapters (and thus the slow pace) you have to think it's effecting his work at this point.

I could be wrong, but anyone who thinks his fame is not slowing completion of the project is foolish. Can't say I would play it any differently. Can't fault it.

he's admitted that his newfound fame has slowed his progress...he's talked about how getting free trips to exotic locations around the world to talk about the book and conventions such as Comic Con have slowed his progress...it's a double edged sword in that the HBO show has brought him millions of new fans but also increased the pressure to make the books even better

you're right that he changes his mind a lot, so just because he gave HBO a rough outline on where things will end up, doesn't mean that he won't decide to go in a different direction...maybe he'll do that on purpose to make sure fans will still buy his books versus seeing the ending on TV...he mentioned a couple of months back that he thought of a major new twist for an upcoming book but he's not sure if he wants to do it...he mentioned that the show cannot use this twist because they killed off a certain minor character which the twist revolves around...I wouldn't be surprised to see him work in more of these types of things into his final 2 books

EDIT: GRRM also recently announced that he's developing 2 new series concepts for HBO/Cinemax and 3 low budget films...the final 2 books will take another 20 years at this rate

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post #7308 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 04:47 PM
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However the series ends, I'll still buy the last of the books just to see what GRRM had in mind. I think fame has slowed down an already slow pen. And, as suggested, he wants to do an end-around with HBO on the ending, that could be adding to the slowness. Wouldn't surprise me if that's not part of his deal with HBO. Finish the series with what I've given you and then I'll finish, or publish the books. As much as I love the books, I'd really like to see the story satisfactorily end and not end up with someone extending the storyline from his notes.
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post #7309 of 7706 Old 06-11-2015, 06:48 PM
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Knowing how things developed did not stop the book readers from watching the show, so I imagine knowing how the story ends will not stop them from reading the books. Any loss in book sales is more than made up by TV largesse.

Anyway, I'm sure GRRM will think of ways to surprise and delight his readers. The destination may be the same the paths and detours won't be.

It's kind of cool to see someone as successful as GRRM still acting like a regular nerd. Apparently the guy still reads fan email and moderates comments on his blog. Dude are you nuts. Hire an intern. You don't have time for that sh##. I guess he's a people person. Me, if I gained any kind of fame and fortune, I'd be like "bye b*tches". I'm holing up in my mansion and never coming out [emoji14]
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post #7310 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
what's ironic about the Spoiler thread vs the non-spoiler one is that if GRRM doesn't release the last 2 books soon then this thread will become the Spoiler thread
You could make a convincing argument that it already has become the spoiler thread...No need to wait.

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post #7311 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:37 AM
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It's kind of cool to see someone as successful as GRRM still acting like a regular nerd. Apparently the guy still reads fan email and moderates comments on his blog. Dude are you nuts. Hire an intern. You don't have time for that sh##. I guess he's a people person. Me, if I gained any kind of fame and fortune, I'd be like "bye b*tches". I'm holing up in my mansion and never coming out [emoji14]

Back some time ago on the "other" thread, I posted on GRRM's fame and fortune post HBO GOT .. I met Martin many years ago before he was anyone but a mid-level author .. he and I would regularly cross paths at various Fan Conventions .. we still exchange an infrequent email ..


He is, certainly, still a Nerd at heart .. in fact, these days, he's likely at the top of the Nerd heap .. after gaining his now Worldwide fame, it would be difficult to not bask in that .. I'm a few years older than GRRM, and can unabashedly state that at a late age, when you are suddenly thrust into a lifestyle of adoration, money, fame etc, and you're a Nerd that could be cast in a "Lord of the Rings" film as far as looks go, you're going to milk it, since you really don't know how much time you've got to milk it ..


I'm just surprised he's not talked his way into a cameo in every Season a la Stan Lee .. the problem with George is he won't write anything unless he is at his desk in Santa Fe, thus, all the travel, on set life, convention schedule, etc has been the primary drag on the next volumes ..


Lastly, he lives a fairly simple life, not a "Lives of the Rich and Famous" by any stretch ..

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post #7312 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:40 AM
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I think they tried to show it visually, but maybe people didn't pick up on it. Here are pics of him from episode 1 and then episode 9

I think there is a dramatic change in look which meant to convey the struggle of the choice he made and situation he was in.


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Not to take anything away from your post, but other than aging and balding and maybe a few extra pounds, he looks pretty much the same to me .. red cast lighting is always more flattering than blue cast ..

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post #7313 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:46 AM
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Not to take anything away from your post, but other than aging and balding and maybe a few extra pounds, he looks pretty much the same to me .. red cast lighting is always more flattering than blue cast ..

The right picture is "brightened" it seems, at least to me when he showed up he looked dramatically different. Dark under his eyes, drained etc etc. I picked up on it when I watch the scene, but maybe I'm the only one. I have heard most people posting shots of the show enhance the pic so that they show more. He really shouldn't look that much different However, he's looked pretty much the same for the past season until that scene. Maybe when he gets back into the graces of the Lord of Light he'll look ok again.


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post #7314 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:47 AM
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Lastly, he lives a fairly simple life, not a "Lives of the Rich and Famous" by any stretch ..
One good thing about gaining fame at a later stage in your life is that you're more grounded, and (hopefully) have a broader perspective in terms of dealing with celebrity status in context with your daily life, so it doesn't become all-consuming.
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post #7315 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:48 AM
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Just a heads up, Amazon is having a gold box special, today only. Seasons 1 - 4 on Blu-ray for $104.99. Pretty good deal if you want a permanent copy.
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post #7316 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:51 AM
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Maybe when he gets back into the graces of the Lord of Light he'll look ok again.
I've never thought he ever looked happy or that good with anything .. the scowl is generally there .. Stannis is a hard man, driven to one purpose .. personally, I don't think he'd make that great a King, when compromise and diplomacy start to play in ..

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post #7317 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 08:56 AM
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Just a heads up, Amazon is having a gold box special, today only. Seasons 1 - 4 on Blu-ray for $104.99. Pretty good deal if you want a permanent copy.
At this point, I've decided to not buy any more BD seasons .. if I live long enough, I'm going to wait for the "Limited Edition Directors Cut with 20 Extra Disks on Behind the Scenes and Interviews and Containing 2 Hours of Never Before Seen Footage all Packed in a Red Keep Box with a Hand of the King Pin" ..
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At this point, I've decided to not buy any more BD seasons .. if I live long enough, I'm going to wait for the "Limited Edition Directors Cut with 20 Extra Disks on Behind the Scenes and Interviews and Containing 2 Hours of Never Before Seen Footage all Packed in a Red Keep Box with a Hand of the King Pin" ..
I'm waiting for the 4K youknownothingjonsnow version.
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post #7319 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
At this point, I've decided to not buy any more BD seasons .. if I live long enough, I'm going to wait for the "Limited Edition Directors Cut with 20 Extra Disks on Behind the Scenes and Interviews and Containing 2 Hours of Never Before Seen Footage all Packed in a Red Keep Box with a Hand of the King Pin" ..

The only bad thing, is that they have edited season 1 so unless you have one of the "original" pressings you may never get a complete unedited version the scene wasn't important to the story, but was interesting jab at someone "famous".


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post #7320 of 7706 Old 06-12-2015, 09:39 AM
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I've never thought he ever looked happy or that good with anything .. the scowl is generally there .. Stannis is a hard man, driven to one purpose .. personally, I don't think he's make that great a King, when compromise and diplomacy start to play in ..

He'd technically be a great king but he never would be because he's missing the "Human" element. I'd make him Hand. Anything the King wanted done would get done, and you'd never hear about it again.
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