'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 336 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10051 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tezster View Post
There was a little bit too much exposition, I feel... Olenna basically had to explain why House Tyrell ultimately lost through dialog.
In general I agree with your sentiments - Highgarden fell way too easily.

Although the counterpoints are the Tyrell house was in disarray with Olenna's son and grandson both killed in the Sept explosion; and likely more importantly the Tarlys betrayed the Tyrells. Randyll Tarly was built up as one of the greatest military minds in the 7 Kingdoms (only one to beat King Robert in battle) so his house turning on Highgarden would have greatly weakened the forces available to Highgarden. When the best portion of your army is marching against you, it does make the L a little bit easier to believe. They did kind of "yadda, yadda" both battles, but that was likely not a bad thing to move the story forward...
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post #10052 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 07:04 AM
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In general I agree with your sentiments - Highgarden fell way too easily.

Although the counterpoints are the Tyrell house was in disarray with Olenna's son and grandson both killed in the Sept explosion; and likely more importantly the Tarlys betrayed the Tyrells. Randyll Tarly was built up as one of the greatest military minds in the 7 Kingdoms (only one to beat King Robert in battle) so his house turning on Highgarden would have greatly weakened the forces available to Highgarden. When the best portion of your army is marching against you, it does make the L a little bit easier to believe. They did kind of "yadda, yadda" both battles, but that was likely not a bad thing to move the story forward...
I think this is a better reason to have used for the loss then we're lovers not fighters. Castles can only hold so many troops at all times for battle, each king/queen relies on bannermen to answer a call to arms to come and defend/fight. The Tyrells lost their bannermen to the otherside so were vastly outnumbered.
They also had some that could obviously fight, the Knight of Flowers certainly had skill. Was he the only one that had skill from that family?
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post #10053 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 07:41 AM
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Tyrion (talking about Sansa) - "She's much smarter than she lets on"

Jon - "She's starting to let on"

heh, classic.
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post #10054 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 07:45 AM
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Agreed about the 1 on 1 scenes. Of course there was a little of Dany and Jon too which was a very important follow up scene to their earlier first meeting.

Tyrion once again gives what seems like good advice based on great inside info and understanding which turns out to be just enough out of date to be bad advice. The Lannisters once again outsmart Dany's forces. The powerful women at the council meeting she had not long ago are rapidly disappearing.

Of course that final scene with Oleanna giving a "deathbed confession" about Joffrey's assassination is something a lot of folks have been hoping to see. Tyrion vindicated but far too late to matter. Will Jamie even tell Cersei? It might not be productive to do so.

Interesting that Jon said outright "I'm not a Stark", though obviously he said it for a different reason than what we know.

Sansa is reunited with Brandon but he has changed in a confusing way to her and isn't remotely the boy she last knew. His knowledge of her wedding night was very disturbing and creepy to Sansa - that he chose that particular thing to reveal shows he has a lot to learn about not only how his power works but how to use it.
Wait till she gets a load of Arya.
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post #10055 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by John dhein View Post
While the appearance remains great, the plotting of this epic has become a joke.

Could someone explain to me how Euron can go from Kings Landing to wherever he destroyed Yaras' fleet, back to KL, then still catch the transport for the unsullied, just after they arrive at Casterly Rock.

With an armada that can do that, why isn't he already king of the world???
It's likely not far from KL to where the attack on Yara took place. However, who is to say that all of Euron's ships are together and that there still weren't plenty back near the Iron Islands?

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post #10056 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by John dhein View Post
While the appearance remains great, the plotting of this epic has become a joke.

Could someone explain to me how Euron can go from Kings Landing to wherever he destroyed Yaras' fleet, back to KL, then still catch the transport for the unsullied, just after they arrive at Casterly Rock.

With an armada that can do that, why isn't he already king of the world???

I think we're seeing the difference between the book sourced material and what the current writers can come up with in order to close this thing out in time. The early story took liberty with the timeline also but not quite as blatently. I'm still liking it, but I'm starting to appreciate George Martins skill in a new light.
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post #10057 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post
I think we're seeing the difference between the book sourced material and what the current writers can come up with in order to close this thing out in time. The early story took liberty with the timeline also but not quite as blatently. I'm still liking it, but I'm starting to appreciate George Martins skill in a new light.


Well there is a major difference when you're not limited in description GRRM can go on for pages of description and detail, it's much harder to piece that down to the bones while still trying to keep them.
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post #10058 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:25 AM
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Well there is a major difference when you're not limited in description GRRM can go on for pages of description and detail, it's much harder to piece that down to the bones while still trying to keep them.

I'm not talking about the difference between the books and the series. I've never read the books, unless you count reading half the first chapter about 15 times before giving up!

There's an obvious difference in depth between the book sourced eps and the current ones. I can appreciate more now how much work and talent it must have taken to juggle such a massive story with huge amount of characters and timelines, backstories, etc. and really, for the most part, make it work so well.
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post #10059 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:33 AM
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It's definitely got a different flow and pace this season. I guess it comes down to how well the writers wrap up the storyline. Queen Dany may soon have another advisor now that he's "healed"?
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post #10060 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by John dhein View Post
While the appearance remains great, the plotting of this epic has become a joke.

Could someone explain to me how Euron can go from Kings Landing to wherever he destroyed Yaras' fleet, back to KL, then still catch the transport for the unsullied, just after they arrive at Casterly Rock.

With an armada that can do that, why isn't he already king of the world???
You have a valid point as the battle explanations were very hand wavey - but...If we take Tyrion's description of the battle as only hitting the high points (or was it Jamie's follow-up explanation that showed Euron with his sea triumph? think it was Jamie, but anyway), it's not as hard to believe. Dragon Stone to King's Landing is a fairly short trip. If we presume that the unsullied transport left at the same time as Yara (which we don't really know, the Unsullied could have left days later), then Euron could have been back in King's Landing with his prizes a day or two later and then left only a few days later than the Unsullied fleet. Worst case he's a week behind them and it could be as little as a few days.

The time to land a large fighting force, setup a siege, etc. is non-trivial. Definitely a few days, if not a week. We see the Unsullied triumph and then sometime later Euron wipes out their fleet leaving them stranded at the Rock. I'm not sure the timeline on the sea battles is off here. I think the way they elected to tell the story just leaves the viewer somewhat disjointed and makes us suspicious of teleporting Navies, but I don't think the powers of teleportation were needed here.

I am wondering just where the Dothraki hordes are though. The initial plan was Unsullied & Dothraki take Casterly Rock, but I don't recall seeing any Dothraki in the battle (and logically I'm not sure the battle played to their strengths that involving them made sense). Are they still on Dragon Stone? That may be a problem as Dany seems fresh out of ships and the Dothraki don't do water crossings. Or did they get landed somewhere already? If at the Rock with the Unsullied it seems they could fight their way back from the Rock relatively easily as they'd make a formidable combo of elite foot and cavalry. If the Unsullied are alone though, that's a problem...

I do think B&W are far less versed in combat than GRR Martin though. Whenever Benioff & Weiss have gone outside of the books to portray combat scenes, it's been very lacking...

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post #10061 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:53 AM
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Best episode of the season. Things are finally starting to "happen."

I really like Tyrion and always root for his plans. But he sure doesn't seem to be the world's greatest strategist. It probably won't bode well for him.

I was surprised to see Bronn marching with Old Man Tarly in that ending scene. Was happy to see him, but . . .
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post #10062 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by John dhein View Post
While the appearance remains great, the plotting of this epic has become a joke.

Could someone explain to me how Euron can go from Kings Landing to wherever he destroyed Yaras' fleet, back to KL, then still catch the transport for the unsullied, just after they arrive at Casterly Rock.

With an armada that can do that, why isn't he already king of the world???
He's what happens when you mix Cpt. Sparrow, Cpt. Kirk with a little Blackbeard
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post #10063 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 09:35 AM
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Another great episode. I'm getting the feeling that, even with her flying, flame breathing kids, Dany may be getting a bit out over her skis in the strategy department. The final scene between Olenna and Jamie was a classic. Diana Rigg just killed it. Even in the grip of death, Lady Olenna had to take a last shot at the Lannisters. Her telling Jamie, with malicious delight, that she had killed Joffrey in that horrible and cruel way was a final middle finger to him and Cersei. The old Grand Dame really went out in style.
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post #10064 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 09:39 AM
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I really liked this week's episode too. They keep getting better every week.

I thought the edgy, rather distant, tone of Bran and Sansa's reunion made sense. After all, they had not seen each other since Bran was a little boy and Sansa an innocent and naive romantic. Neither of those earlier versions of themselves exist any longer. Bran has become a mystic who has occult powers and Sansa is now a wary, if not outright cynical, power player. Thus, Bran and Sansa really don't know each other any more.

I wasn't worried at all by the writers' decision to show us the Battle of Highgarden. Like the writers, I didn't see much to be gained by depicting at length a one-sided battle.

I continue to have a lot of respect for Tyrion's judgment but agree that he has been hampered by a lack of intelligence. It makes me wonder why Varys and his little birds have failed in such critical ways.
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post #10065 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 09:51 AM
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It makes me wonder why Varys and his little birds have failed in such critical ways.
Is that a hint about Varys' possible motives?
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post #10066 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:14 AM
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Is that a hint about Varys' possible motives?
Wasn't trying to throw Varys under the bus exactly but was wondering where he thinks the current interests of "the Realm" lie. If Varys thinks the interests of the realm don't lie with Daenerys, then anything is possible.

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post #10067 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:22 AM
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It makes me wonder why Varys and his little birds have failed in such critical ways.
I presume logistically it would be difficult for his "little birds" to get word back to him. He was off continent for awhile and now is on Dragon Stone, how would he garner intelligence remotely? I guess in theory via Ravens, but that doesn't seem to be a "little birds" type thing and more a Maester communications mechanism...

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post #10068 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:25 AM
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Or the Lannisters built hundreds of them. And maybe put a bunch on ships too, not just King's Landing walls.

Big dragons are slow to turn, like a 747. I hesitate to bring the laws of physics into a discussion of dragons, but clearly the show is telegraphing at least one or two get killed by those arbaletes.
Didn't the dragons hover over one of the ships in the Mereen harbor to burn it?

If they can hover, they don't have to have this wide turning circle like a jet plane.

But I guess the writers want to make it a difficult battle so Dany's air supremacy will probably be taken away.
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post #10069 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:30 AM
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@DaMavs Dothraki were not there and are most likely still close to Dragonstone (there are a couple islands where they could offload). Some of them were still on Dragonstone (as seen in Jon's arrival).
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post #10070 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:31 AM
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Wasn't trying to throw Varys under the bus exactly but was wondering where he thinks the current interests of "the Realm" lie. If Varys thinks the interests of the realm don't lie with Daenerys, then anything is possible.

I always go back to the exchange between Littlefinger and Varys, I think in the Throne Room, some seasons back. Littlefinger outlined his single minded thirst to be ruler, and Varys wasn't far behind really. So I don't think I'll ever completely trust him. He's got a bigger heart than LF but that's about it. He's highly motivated to be a power player.
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post #10071 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:35 AM
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I always go back to the exchange between Littlefinger and Varys, I think in the Throne Room, some seasons back. Littlefinger outlined his single minded thirst to be ruler, and Varys wasn't far behind really. So I don't think I'll ever completely trust him. He's got a bigger heart than LF but that's about it. He's highly motivated to be a power player.
Like Tyrion, Varys understands that his power lies behind the throne, not on it. I seem to recall him having said so, maybe on more than one occasion.
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post #10072 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:41 AM
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It's likely not far from KL to where the attack on Yara took place. However, who is to say that all of Euron's ships are together and that there still weren't plenty back near the Iron Islands?
OK. I give up. I guess I'll just have to accept that Euron is this epics' Deus ex Machina.

BUT, if Dany and Tyrion were colossally stupid enough as to offload their horse-mounted force on an ISLAND.... I'm going to start cheering for the Night King!!!
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post #10073 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 10:50 AM
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I thought the edgy, rather distant, tone of Bran and Sansa's reunion made sense. After all, they had not seen each other since Bran was a little boy and Sansa an innocent and naive romantic. Neither of those earlier versions of themselves exist any longer. Bran has become a mystic who has occult powers and Sansa is now a wary, if not outright cynical, power player. Thus, Bran and Sansa really don't know each other any more.
I attribute the distant nature of their reunion much more due to Bran's transformation than Sansa... I think Bran's growth and omniscient knowledge has made him much less tied down by human emotional attachment. I would compare his detachment similar to the character Dr. Manhattan from the Watchman comics. When you possess that much knowledge, I would imagine day to day human interaction would rank pretty low in importance in the grand scheme of things.
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post #10074 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 11:15 AM
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I attribute the distant nature of their reunion much more due to Bran's transformation than Sansa... I think Bran's growth and omniscient knowledge has made him much less tied down by human emotional attachment.
Or he's still very much overwhelmed and trying to process it all. I have to think their little chat by the heart tree was for a purpose, that location being the kicker. But to return to what you are saying and support of it: he may already know how Sansa and everyone else ends up. Certainly he knows everyone's entire history. However, where the heck is Bran's sense of urgency in getting to a resolution? Why not tell Sansa about what's coming with the winter? Why not warn all allies as quickly as possible?

That was what disappointed me about that scene; but I'm sure it was for a reason.
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post #10075 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 11:28 AM
 
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Didn't the dragons hover over one of the ships in the Mereen harbor to burn it?

If they can hover, they don't have to have this wide turning circle like a jet plane.

But I guess the writers want to make it a difficult battle so Dany's air supremacy will probably be taken away.
The dragons still have mass and thus inertia, just like a Harrier jet. And Harriers might have tremendous abilities for hovering but that doesn't necessarily make them better at evading incoming missiles.

I'm calling it now: one dragon's going to die by one of these bolts, one by melee attacks on the ground, probably swarmed by whole bunch of walkers, or perhaps the Night King himself. Maybe the big one will survive.

Don't forget, it's possible that the Night King might be able to raise of the dragons and control him as his own. (fire breath would turn into ice breath?)
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post #10076 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 11:33 AM
 
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Or he's still very much overwhelmed and trying to process it all. I have to think their little chat by the heart tree was for a purpose, that location being the kicker. But to return to what you are saying and support of it: he may already know how Sansa and everyone else ends up. Certainly he knows everyone's entire history. However, where the heck is Bran's sense of urgency in getting to a resolution? Why not tell Sansa about what's coming with the winter? Why not warn all allies as quickly as possible?

That was what disappointed me about that scene; but I'm sure it was for a reason.
He can't see everything clearly yet, he admitted, so he can't yet piece together the big picture. He also just hasn't had enough time to really explore the formless void that he sees.
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post #10077 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 12:01 PM
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Re: Tyrion and his current losing streak as advisor. He has 2 main weak points which have been partially alluded to. First is the lack of current intel. He knows a lot about the Lannisters but it is months out of date. At this juncture that is a major flaw. The second is that while he is very intelligent and clever he doesn't have much experience at all with battle strategy and more importantly, campaign strategy. His blunder on Casterly Rock is more of the latter, in not seeing the bigger picture that it wasn't really vital to the Lannisters any more in their larger role now of running the Seven Kingdoms.
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post #10078 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 12:17 PM
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Dany needs a flock of Ravens .. word is just not spreading fast enough ..

Kudos to the Queen of Thorns, she went out just like she came in .. .. I'll miss the Tyrell's ..

Dredging up a past Memory, with likely not a lot of accuracy, however, did Bran not somehow mark the Night's King (arm, I think) sometime back .. ?? Bran speculation :: Since we know Hodor was essentially created as Hodor by Bran, what possible other Time Travel Events could be or might be linked to Bran in the future .. ? The Bran Time Travel angle could have some future script mining effects ..

Most useless lines of the night by Littlefinger “Fight every battle, everywhere, always in your mind. Everyone is your enemy. Everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once.” .. you'd think Councilman Thomas 'Tommy' Carcetti / Mayor Elect Thomas 'Tommy' Carcetti would be able to come up with something a little more catchy ..

Once again, Dany :: Please deploy the Dragons, roasting Euron and his fleet first ..
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post #10079 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 12:20 PM
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Did anyone else catch the subtle look Littlefinger made when the current maester told Sansa he'd check the records of the ravens that the previous maester kept, which were meticulous? I'm wondering if there might be something there that would spell the end for Littlefinger?
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post #10080 of 11247 Old 07-31-2017, 12:24 PM
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Found this quite funny
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