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post #2791 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Dany may have a hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, but aside from the two Westeros men nobody around her cares. She gains her influence through charisma (and dragons). Her people are loyal to her because she personifies, and demonstrates, the qualities to which people want to be loyal. She is shaping herself into the kind of leader that people love, worship, fear a bit, and will follow into hell. She may need to learn how to lead, but these inspirational qualities are inborn.
IMO, that makes her potentially a far superior leader to all these other people who claim a "right" to power merely because of their family name. Joffrey is proof of how ridiculous that concept is, as is Dany's own father. He was a true Targaryen, and the "rightful" King by all the traditions of Westeros, but he was also frickin' CRAZY, and had no business being King. Neither did Viserys, for that matter.
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post #2792 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Comparing Robb and Dany is difficult.

Robb's core followers are tied to him through familial and historical allegiance -- he is their liege lord, as was his father. In order to affirm that position he had only to demonstrate that he had what it took to carry on. In other words, he didn't have to win them, he just had to keep them. At first he made all the right moves to do that, and even to expand his influence. Lately, not so much.

Dany may have a hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, but aside from the two Westeros men nobody around her cares. She gains her influence through charisma (and dragons). Her people are loyal to her because she personifies, and demonstrates, the qualities to which people want to be loyal. She is shaping herself into the kind of leader that people love, worship, fear a bit, and will follow into hell. She may need to learn how to lead, but these inspirational qualities are inborn.

One other big difference: Robb doesn't seem very good at "the Game." Dany hasn't yet had to play, although her handling of the Unsullied owner seems to indicate that when she does eventually need to play politics for keeps, she will be formidable.
Agree 100%. None of the Starks have any clue. It's like they were brought up in a different universe where fair play pays off. I blame this on GRRM. This family is for us to identify and sympathize with, however, no one else in the universe they live in plays by their rules (ok maybe some of them are in 60%). The Tully's ain't too sharp either. The Lannisters and Tyrells despicable or just opportunistic at least seem to understand how to play. Dany's clan, evidently were great conquerors, decent kings, then a madman came to power. After awhile someone had to step in...revolution...Baratheons wanted the thrown, Starks didn't (and couldn't handle it anyway), Tragaeryon culling...only Dany is left and she's a real dragon (whatever that is - sort of a warg that talks to dragons anyway...a real advantage). If she bides her time, she walks in and takes over. If she doesn't, then she's embroiled, not only in the civil war, but the invasion from the north. I guess that's a reason to keep watching.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #2793 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Her dragons will not only catch her army's food, they will cook it too! Plus, they're awesome recruiting tools. Who would you want to fight for? Me, I'm enlisting in the army with the flying WMD's.
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Robs' problem is that he inherited his Fathers' morals and ethics but his Mothers hot temper and stupidity.

Ned would have NEVER allowed her near Jamie. The split second he captured Jamie, Rob should have begun negotiations with Cersei.
Very true.

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post #2794 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Comparing Robb and Dany is difficult.

Robb's core followers are tied to him through familial and historical allegiance -- he is their liege lord, as was his father. In order to affirm that position he had only to demonstrate that he had what it took to carry on. In other words, he didn't have to win them, he just had to keep them. At first he made all the right moves to do that, and even to expand his influence. Lately, not so much.
NO ONE will ever confuse Rob Stark with Alexander The Great.
He will not be able to out-general Tywin....

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One other big difference: Robb doesn't seem very good at "the Game." Dany hasn't yet had to play, although her handling of the Unsullied owner seems to indicate that when she does eventually need to play politics for keeps, she will be formidable.
Agreed.

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If she bides her time, she walks in and takes over.
That would be the shrewd way to do it.....wait until the others wear themselves out and then come in.wink.gif

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If she doesn't, then she's embroiled, not only in the civil war, but the invasion from the north.
This is the most likely outcome in this show IMO.

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post #2795 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 07:21 PM
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[quote name="rdclark" url="/t/1329890/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-hd-no-spoilers-or-book-discussion/2700_100#post_23272311One other big difference: Robb doesn't seem very good at "the Game." Dany hasn't yet had to play, although her handling of the Unsullied owner seems to indicate that when she does eventually need to play politics for keeps, she will be formidable.[/quote]

Agreed.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Robb has an unerring propensity to make breathtakingly bad decisions in the political arena. He would be a great king as well as a great soldier if he could only play the "Game" as well as he can lead men in battle. Alas, that's hasn't been the case. As we have learned from the conduct of his late father, Net Stark, and his mother, Catelyn, Robb's problem is genetic.smile.gif
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post #2796 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Comparing Robb and Dany is difficult.

Robb's core followers are tied to him through familial and historical allegiance -- he is their liege lord, as was his father. In order to affirm that position he had only to demonstrate that he had what it took to carry on. In other words, he didn't have to win them, he just had to keep them. At first he made all the right moves to do that, and even to expand his influence. Lately, not so much.

Dany may have a hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, but aside from the two Westeros men nobody around her cares. She gains her influence through charisma (and dragons). Her people are loyal to her because she personifies, and demonstrates, the qualities to which people want to be loyal. She is shaping herself into the kind of leader that people love, worship, fear a bit, and will follow into hell. She may need to learn how to lead, but these inspirational qualities are inborn.

One other big difference: Robb doesn't seem very good at "the Game." Dany hasn't yet had to play, although her handling of the Unsullied owner seems to indicate that when she does eventually need to play politics for keeps, she will be formidable.

Great post and I agree smile.gif
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post #2797 of 6039 Old 05-02-2013, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Agree 100%. None of the Starks have any clue. It's like they were brought up in a different universe where fair play pays off. I blame this on GRRM. This family is for us to identify and sympathize with, however, no one else in the universe they live in plays by their rules (ok maybe some of them are in 60%). The Tully's ain't too sharp either. The Lannisters and Tyrells despicable or just opportunistic at least seem to understand how to play. Dany's clan, evidently were great conquerors, decent kings, then a madman came to power. After awhile someone had to step in...revolution...Baratheons wanted the thrown, Starks didn't (and couldn't handle it anyway), Tragaeryon culling...only Dany is left and she's a real dragon (whatever that is - sort of a warg that talks to dragons anyway...a real advantage). If she bides her time, she walks in and takes over. If she doesn't, then she's embroiled, not only in the civil war, but the invasion from the north. I guess that's a reason to keep watching.

Well the North for the most part IS an antirely different world than the South and Kings Landing....The live and play the game with different sets of rules.... well at least thats who I see it.....dany on the otherhand since shee has no real influence outside of her advisors and her deceased brother has grown up outside the influence of either and is gaining qualities that owuld allow her to rule\survive in both.....Its the balance of the two worlds that will allow someone to dominate...
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post #2798 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Comparing Robb and Dany is difficult.

Robb's core followers are tied to him through familial and historical allegiance -- he is their liege lord, as was his father. In order to affirm that position he had only to demonstrate that he had what it took to carry on. In other words, he didn't have to win them, he just had to keep them. At first he made all the right moves to do that, and even to expand his influence. Lately, not so much.

Dany may have a hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, but aside from the two Westeros men nobody around her cares. She gains her influence through charisma (and dragons). Her people are loyal to her because she personifies, and demonstrates, the qualities to which people want to be loyal. She is shaping herself into the kind of leader that people love, worship, fear a bit, and will follow into hell. She may need to learn how to lead, but these inspirational qualities are inborn.

One other big difference: Robb doesn't seem very good at "the Game." Dany hasn't yet had to play, although her handling of the Unsullied owner seems to indicate that when she does eventually need to play politics for keeps, she will be formidable.

Great summary.

Robb started with an army, loyal followers and battlefield successes. He is squandering that.

She started with nothing in a land where her name was more apt to bring trouble (and did), hunted and used as a bargaining chip by her brother.

She then used her intelligence to get to the point where she is recognized as a queen in a strange land. What happens when she returns to Westeros where her name means something as a warrior queen with dragons and a rabidly devoted army?
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post #2799 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 10:06 AM
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NO ONE will ever confuse Rob Stark with Alexander The Great.
He will not be able to out-general Tywin....
.

I think Rob has shown he's better at strategy than his opponents. He's never lost a battle and might have won the whole war if not for Tully blunders, as he told his mom's brother. Its the politics he has problems with. Like his father he is amazingly naive when it comes to the Game. He thinks wars are won on the battlefield. Tywin knows better.

Dany thinks of herself as the rightful ruler of the 7 Kingdoms.. She doesn't have to know the game-she makes her own rules. Its good to be queen

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post #2800 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 10:09 AM
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Dany is a sociopath IMO (if justfiably so at this point), but man she is hot with those dragons.
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post #2801 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 10:34 AM
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Dany is a sociopath IMO (if justfiably so at this point), but man she is hot with those dragons.
I disagree. A sociopath would have felt nothing for the slaves being crucified. Dany obviously did.
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post #2802 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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Dany is a sociopath IMO (if justfiably so at this point), but man she is hot with those dragons.

She's no more a sociopath than any other member of royalty. To her way of thinking its her right and her duty to pass judgment and deal out punishment to those she deems guilty. And thats what she's done.

"There is no truth. There's just what you believe."
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post #2803 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 11:10 AM
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Tywin knows better.
As did Alexander.wink.gif

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She's no more a sociopath than any other member of royalty. To her way of thinking its her right and her duty to pass judgment and deal out punishment to those she deems guilty. And thats what she's done.
Agreed.

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post #2804 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 11:14 AM
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This is a world where it's ok for a lord to have a sigil of a man flayed alive. I don't think there's a single person inhabiting this world that is NOT a psychopath.

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This is a world where it's ok for a lord to have a sigil of a man flayed alive. I don't think there's a single person inhabiting this world that is NOT a psychopath.
There goes all of our ancestors....wink.gif

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post #2806 of 6039 Old 05-03-2013, 12:06 PM
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There goes all of our ancestors....wink.gif

Mine just had the sigil of a knight talking about someone behind his back. Damaging in its own way.
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She's [Deaneries] no more a sociopath than any other member of royalty. To her way of thinking its her right and her duty to pass judgment and deal out punishment to those she deems guilty. And thats what she's done.

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Agreed.

Yeah, Dani and her fellow contenders in the Game have to be ruthless or perish. It is as simple as that, it seems to me. Joffrey, though, often goes too far even by the standards of a king.
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post #2808 of 6039 Old 05-05-2013, 08:30 PM
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another great episode all around IMO. A lot or character movement, Im goign to have to watch it again, as today has been hectic for me and I got sucked into the episode, before I knew it, the epsiode was over....

Interesting that Milesandra almsot had a wonder\fear of Arya. With the eyes comments it immediately made me think of the direwolves.
The discussion between the grandmother Tyrell (cant rememebr her name right now) and Tywin was excellent, both matched well as far as intelect goes it was a constant chess match until Tywin pulled out his trump card and she had no more moves left.
We are beginning to see the budding relationship between Yvegreete and Jon, which I think will turn out to be bigger than it seems. Her conversation with him before they climbed the wall was an important one I think, I just dont know how yet.
With Tyrion and Cersi discussing what they have to do, Im surprised that what we discussed (killing Tywin) didnt come up as a viable option. Well I think until Jamie comes back it wont be on the table.
The person holding Theon is still a mystery, unless he was tellign the truth and just wanted to torture Theon anyways, not sure how that is going to play out, but I hope there is a pay off (I am sure there will be, I just cant see it yet)
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post #2809 of 6039 Old 05-05-2013, 09:55 PM
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Boy this episode threw me a lot of curves.

Why were John snow, ygritte, and fellow wildlings climbing the wall. I thought they lived behind it. I don't remember them climbing down the wall

What were varyias and little finger discussing?
I must be getting senile as I couldn't decipher it.

And who was on that ship and where was it sailing at the end of the show?


Some body bail me out here.

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post #2810 of 6039 Old 05-05-2013, 10:26 PM
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Great episode.

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post #2811 of 6039 Old 05-05-2013, 10:27 PM
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Boy this episode threw me a lot of curves.

Why were John snow, ygritte, and fellow wildlings climbing the wall. I thought they lived behind it. I don't remember them climbing down the wall
They were going to invade/attack the North

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What were varyias and little finger discussing?
After he turned over Varys's source to Joffrey for target practice, Littlefinger warned him "it ain't over until it's over" and be careful who you trust.

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And who was on that ship and where was it sailing at the end of the show?
That was Littlefinger's ship Sansa should have been on, had she not dawdled....instead she learned she will have to marry Tyroin.

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post #2812 of 6039 Old 05-05-2013, 11:49 PM
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After he turned over Varys's source to Joffrey for target practice, Littlefinger warned him "it ain't over until it's over" and be careful who you trust.
I'll miss those curves. frown.gif
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post #2813 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 02:56 AM
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Why were John snow, ygritte, and fellow wildlings climbing the wall. I thought they lived behind it. I don't remember them climbing down the wall

We don't know the details of Mance Rayder's plan but it involves getting everyone over the Wall to get away from the White Walkers.
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What were varyias and little finger discussing?
I must be getting senile as I couldn't decipher it.

They were discussing their back and forth about Sansa. Sansa is seen as the key to the north -- assuming that Rob will not live long and that Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon. Varys had tried to get Sansa married to Loras to keep Littlefinger from marrying her and had plotted to Olenna Tyrell. Littlefinger apparently struck back by telling Tywin (implied by Littlefinger's discussion with Varys) and suggesting that Sansa marry Tyrion. Littlefinger also discussed chaos as a "ladder" which he meant that opportunity was available in such times. Littlefinger mentioned that there were those who took the opportunity and those that didn't. Because of the pictures and transition, they showed Sansa had failed to take her opportunity leading to your last question.Lastly, Littlefinger told Varys about the fate of his spy, Ros.
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And who was on that ship and where was it sailing at the end of the show?

That ship was Littlefinger's ship that was leaving to go to the Vale where Liza Arryn was. Sansa had told Littlefinger that she would stay in King"s Landing because she believed that she was going to be protected by the Tyrells. We saw that Tyrion went to see Sansa and most likely told her of the arranged marriage with him. Sansa was looking out at the ship realizing that she had made another one of her stupid decisions and feeling sorry for herself.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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I want to feel bad for Sansa, but this entire mess is her fault. Had she not ran to Cersei because of her "love" of Jeoffrey when her father was going to escape King's Landing the whole war would have probably been averted. At the very least Sean Bean wouldn't have died again and the Starks wouldn't be in such disarray. Ned would have aligned with Stannis which would possible have kept Renly in check, and alive. Had Sansa left with the Dog she would have been reunited with Aria at the very least. She lucks out getting Tyrion as a husband. It could have been way worse.

I'm not sure if the turn of events for the King's bastard are good or bad. It's where Ned would have taken him anyway, and it's possible Stannis won't hurt him but use him as proof, which should be good.

I didn't realize at first Varys was confessing to Littlefinger that he ruined Sansa for him. I thought the jib about "not his first choice" was directed at Caitlyn, but Sansa makes more sense. Especially considering Littlefinger's reaction. At least we know Jeoffrey didn't go soft. We can still hate away on him, and it makes me feel Margery will not be able to control him as much as I thought possible.
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post #2815 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 05:53 AM
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I want to feel bad for Sansa, but this entire mess is her fault. Had she not ran to Cersei because of her "love" of Jeoffrey when her father was going to escape King's Landing the whole war would have probably been averted. At the very least Sean Bean wouldn't have died again and the Starks wouldn't be in such disarray. Ned would have aligned with Stannis which would possible have kept Renly in check, and alive. Had Sansa left with the Dog she would have been reunited with Aria at the very least. She lucks out getting Tyrion as a husband. It could have been way worse.

I'm not sure if the turn of events for the King's bastard are good or bad. It's where Ned would have taken him anyway, and it's possible Stannis won't hurt him but use him as proof, which should be good.

I didn't realize at first Varys was confessing to Littlefinger that he ruined Sansa for him. I thought the jib about "not his first choice" was directed at Caitlyn, but Sansa makes more sense. Especially considering Littlefinger's reaction. At least we know Jeoffrey didn't go soft. We can still hate away on him, and it makes me feel Margery will not be able to control him as much as I thought possible.

Wait what? Did you forget That Ned brought wht he found (that her children were jamies and not Roberts), and that after Robet was dying, Ned not only refused to take Roberts place, but waitied until the last moment to bring out a piece of paper to try to discredit Joffery. How did Sansa have anything to do with Ned's actions which ultimately led to his death? which is why the war was started....Im not saying she hasnt madde poor decisions, but less face it, shes ignored all of the survival training thats been around her and focused on being a "lady" and future wife to a lord.

Ned wasnt going to escape and had made his bed when he confronted Cersi in the garden as well as refued to be the one to take Roberts place when those plans were being made.
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post #2816 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

Boy this episode threw me a lot of curves.

Why were John snow, ygritte, and fellow wildlings climbing the wall. I thought they lived behind it. I don't remember them climbing down the wall

What were varyias and little finger discussing?
I must be getting senile as I couldn't decipher it.

And who was on that ship and where was it sailing at the end of the show?


Some body bail me out here.

I think it may be time to go back and watch the last few episodes wink.gif

You need to climb up before you can climb down wink.gif
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post #2817 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 06:04 AM
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I want to feel bad for Sansa, but this entire mess is her fault. Had she not ran to Cersei because of her "love" of Jeoffrey when her father was going to escape King's Landing the whole war would have probably been averted. At the very least Sean Bean wouldn't have died again and the Starks wouldn't be in such disarray. Ned would have aligned with Stannis which would possible have kept Renly in check, and alive. Had Sansa left with the Dog she would have been reunited with Aria at the very least. She lucks out getting Tyrion as a husband. It could have been way worse.

I'm not sure if the turn of events for the King's bastard are good or bad. It's where Ned would have taken him anyway, and it's possible Stannis won't hurt him but use him as proof, which should be good.

I didn't realize at first Varys was confessing to Littlefinger that he ruined Sansa for him. I thought the jib about "not his first choice" was directed at Caitlyn, but Sansa makes more sense. Especially considering Littlefinger's reaction. At least we know Jeoffrey didn't go soft. We can still hate away on him, and it makes me feel Margery will not be able to control him as much as I thought possible.

Wait what? Did you forget That Ned brought wht he found (that her children were jamies and not Roberts), and that after Robet was dying, Ned not only refused to take Roberts place, but waitied until the last moment to bring out a piece of paper to try to discredit Joffery. How did Sansa have anything to do with Ned's actions which ultimately led to his death? which is why the war was started....Im not saying she hasnt madde poor decisions, but less face it, shes ignored all of the survival training thats been around her and focused on being a "lady" and future wife to a lord.

Ned wasnt going to escape and had made his bed when he confronted Cersi in the garden as well as refued to be the one to take Roberts place when those plans were being made.

I believe in the show and book (if memory serves me correctly) Ned was sending the girls off just before he was going to depose Jeoffrey until Stannis could claim the throne. Sansa cried to Cersei and tipped off the plan. I did I incorrectly remember Ned being a part of the escape, but Sansa allowed Cersei to gain the upperhand by tipping her off. Suspecting it's coming, and knowing when it is coming are two different things.

But you are right... Ned was an idiot. He couldn't play the game. He could have still remained honorable and did the right thing had he not been so loud about it. Ned definitely shouldn't have given the girls a chance to ruin his plan.
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post #2818 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 06:34 AM
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I want to feel bad for Sansa, but this entire mess is her fault. Had she not ran to Cersei because of her "love" of Jeoffrey when her father was going to escape King's Landing the whole war would have probably been averted. At the very least Sean Bean wouldn't have died again and the Starks wouldn't be in such disarray. Ned would have aligned with Stannis which would possible have kept Renly in check, and alive. Had Sansa left with the Dog she would have been reunited with Aria at the very least. She lucks out getting Tyrion as a husband. It could have been way worse.

I'm not sure if the turn of events for the King's bastard are good or bad. It's where Ned would have taken him anyway, and it's possible Stannis won't hurt him but use him as proof, which should be good.

I didn't realize at first Varys was confessing to Littlefinger that he ruined Sansa for him. I thought the jib about "not his first choice" was directed at Caitlyn, but Sansa makes more sense. Especially considering Littlefinger's reaction. At least we know Jeoffrey didn't go soft. We can still hate away on him, and it makes me feel Margery will not be able to control him as much as I thought possible.

I'm with you , however she has paid the price. From her fathers beheading,her engagement, family loss, and now a new engagement. Cut her a break, she has grown
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post #2819 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 07:03 AM
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I read the same thing. BTW is it just me or is King Joffrey a whole lot less dickish this season? I want to see more of his malevolence. He's not nearly as despicable this season as before.
This latest episode lays to rest that notion!
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post #2820 of 6039 Old 05-06-2013, 07:17 AM
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This latest episode lays to rest that notion!

Does it ever. Who's not in the mood to see the little bstrd quartered?
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