Homeland on SHO - Page 58 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1711 of 1775 Old 12-16-2013, 06:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 396

Thanks for the link to the brilliant Andy Greenwald's piece about the Homeland finale. As some of you know, I admire Greenwald's criticism of TV series, although I thought he was entirely too harsh about the Homeland season finale and the show's future. Other parts of his piece hit the bullseye though. Greenwald did at least agree that Brody's death was necessary and pointed out that much of this season was "ludicrous. Money quote:
Quote:
Even so, Homeland finally went through with it: Brody had to go and off he went. What's most worrisome about a show headed toward a fourth season of total reinvention is the damage done to the characters who survived. It's impossible to overstate how ludicrous [emphasis added] Carrie Mathison's behavior was this season, how hard the titanic Claire Danes had to work to keep even the most ardent fandom from drifting into ire. At every step of the way she defied orders, flirted with treason, and abused friends and colleagues with vigor and real venom. She was no longer a brilliant analyst or a troubled career woman. She was a love-struck dingbat who actually turned to a man who once assassinated the sitting vice-president of the United States and declared that "one of the reasons I was put on this Earth was for our paths to cross." How far we've fallen from wanting to prevent another 9/11!

Bottom line, no matter how "ludicrous" we find Carrie's conduct to be, we have to admire Claire Danes for somehow, some way, keeping us coming back to Carrie's story every week.
gwsat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1712 of 1775 Old 12-16-2013, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Especially wearing those glasses that look like Google Glass but isn't.tongue.gif
wco81 is online now  
post #1713 of 1775 Old 12-16-2013, 07:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
cuzzin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pearland, Texas
Posts: 989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Although I try to avoid saying too much in other threads about plots of episodes of shows that have run recently, the complaint made against you seemed to verge on the silly. If there is a rule against mentioning plots of a series in a different thread I don't know about it and suspect that there isn't and won't be any such rule. I detest genuine spoilers but stretches like calling discussing a plot point in an old TV episode that ran 3.5 years ago a spoiler, even in a different thread, makes me cranky. Spare us all from spoilerphobics. smile.gif

TV shows are watched differently nowadays. Not too many people are watching them live anymore. Thanks to Netflix and other outlets, many people are binge-watching most of their TV shows, sometimes waiting until after the show has finished airing, to avoid the year-long waits between seasons. Breaking Bad's popularity grew year to year due to it's overwhelmingly positive word of mouth. After the buzz surrounding the series finale, many people were curious what all the fuss was about. I myself know of several people who are just now getting around to watching the series. So while there is no specific "rule" in place, I was just suggesting, out of consideration for anyone here who may just be getting around to watching Breaking Bad, that maybe spoiler tagging a huge spoiler from a different show might not be a bad idea. And if you're cranky, maybe it's time for your nap.
StinDaWg likes this.

cuzzin is offline  
post #1714 of 1775 Old 12-16-2013, 07:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 53
I don't know, I was over Dane's blubbering emotiveness.

It was good the first couple of times but this kind of showy acting is like Jack Nicholson screaming "You can't handle the truth!" in A Few Good Men. That's suppose to be intense acting right?

OK Carrie had a lot of genuine, emotional moments. But you hope our intelligence professionals are more even-keeled, more composed, regardless of the situation.

I remember a scene from 24 where Jack Bauer yet again saves the country from terrorists but in the course of doing so, he breaks some laws (yet again) and must go on the run, from his country, with his daughter not wanting to see him. So he goes on the run, unheralded, with few people knowing he saved the country from a big disaster.

It may be a bad sign when that comes across as a more selfless sacrifice or service to country than Brody's act, which is clumsily linked to Iran offering all kinds of concessions.
wco81 is online now  
post #1715 of 1775 Old 12-16-2013, 10:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sharp1080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern Calif
Posts: 1,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 32
The whole purpose of hanging is to break the neck. His neck couldn't support his body weight, stretches the cervical vertebrae. It would have had to been like the Hulk's to even look out and around at the crowd that long. biggrin.gif I really lost it and started yelling at the television when Carrie first got the phone, and then had to be there to witness the execution. She'd be scarred for life witnessing that event. rolleyes.gif

"Music is my religion"
Jimi Hendrix

Sharp1080 is offline  
post #1716 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 05:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
JoeTiVo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Homeland's show runner puts several questions to rest.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Brody IS dead and Saul will be heavily involved next season for example.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/homeland-showrunner-alex-gansa-brody-666028

Not sure if that needed spoiler tags, but what the hey...
Young C likes this.

Steve
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
My DVDs
My Theater
Theater Construction Album

JoeTiVo is offline  
post #1717 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Young C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

The whole purpose of hanging is to break the neck. His neck couldn't support his body weight, stretches the cervical vertebrae. It would have had to been like the Hulk's to even look out and around at the crowd that long. biggrin.gif I really lost it and started yelling at the television when Carrie first got the phone, and then had to be there to witness the execution. She'd be scarred for life witnessing that event. rolleyes.gif

Exactly. She's going to be traumatized for life after witnessing that. Especially since she's carrying his baby. Is she crazy!? (pun intended biggrin.gif )

JoeTiVo,
Thanks for the post! That's good news
Young C is offline  
post #1718 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 09:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

So while there is no specific "rule" in place, I was just suggesting, out of consideration for anyone here who may just be getting around to watching Breaking Bad, that maybe spoiler tagging a huge spoiler from a different show might not be a bad idea. And if you're cranky, maybe it's time for your nap.

Take up with the moderators, then we could talk.
gwsat is offline  
post #1719 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 09:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mgkdragn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Illinois, East of St Louis
Posts: 10,511
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 547
It's always been AVS position that anything that has aired is not a spoiler when it comes to discussion .. one of the reasons I avoid threads I subscribe to if I have not watched the show yet ..

Posting a spoiler on a show thread that is not part of the thread .. ?? Yes, it happens .. and I suppose the gentlemanly thing to do might be to cloak it in a spoiler tag .. but with the Web filled with recaps and what not, talk shows, etc, you're likely to get exposed to some spoiler info somewhere along the way ..

However, on AVS, if it's aired, it's fair game no matter the thread ..

Just don't bring up book discussion on the "Game of Thrones" HBO thread or a mod will soundly thump you .. tongue.gif

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

mgkdragn is online now  
post #1720 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 09:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

The whole purpose of hanging is to break the neck. His neck couldn't support his body weight, stretches the cervical vertebrae. It would have had to been like the Hulk's to even look out and around at the crowd that long. biggrin.gif I really lost it and started yelling at the television when Carrie first got the phone, and then had to be there to witness the execution. She'd be scarred for life witnessing that event. rolleyes.gif

In a long or standard drop hanging death comes from breaking of the neck. However when just pulled up as on a crane as was done to Brody, death is by strangulation which can take up to half an hour sometimes. Info is on wikipedia. I actually survived getting my head stuck in some unusual playground equipment when I was about 5 or 6. I was totally suspended by my head for around 3 minutes I'd guess and didn't lose consciousness. Of course I weigh considerably more now.

Apparently someone survived a hanging in Iran for 12 minutes. Judge says he can't be re-executed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/23/iranian-survived-execution-spared-justice-minister
lobosrul is online now  
post #1721 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 01:47 PM
Member
 
SuicideJockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Wasn't there a body left hanging in public in the movie Argo?


I guess Brody never watched the X-files. TRUSTNO!
SuicideJockey is offline  
post #1722 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 02:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Morpheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montreal by day, Paris by night...
Posts: 6,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Wouldn't it be ironic that a show called Homeland would take place in Istanbul? ...Somehow I'm under the impression that Carrie will have to go back to the U.S.. I think Quinn should have an even more prominent role in the next season - but I don't want it to become a buddy-cop thing either between him and Carrie. However Rupert Friend does an impeccable job with his character. He showed her that he will always be there to support her in their last scene together. One of my favorite scenes of the episode.

By killing off Brody, they have to completely reinvent the series and change its very premise (and I guess we'll have a brand new opening sequence as well next fall...)

While I'm still in the "killing him off was unnecessary and might be dangerous for the show's future" camp - the season 3 finale leaves me very curious about what they will come up with in the next season.
Morpheo is online now  
post #1723 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 02:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DrLar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 74
But remember the show is about the CIA who deals mostly in international matters, the FBI takes care of domestic issues..

RIP Mom, we always love you 8/18/13
DrLar is online now  
post #1724 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 05:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
Phil17108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Orange County California
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Dreamers, this thing is over stick a fork in it or it well be a new show with an old name
Phil17108 is offline  
post #1725 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Young C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 68
I guess I don't see why people say the show is done if Brody isn't returning. If the show's plot is about terrorism, can't they just find another terrorist? Or I guess a U.S. Government worker turned terrorist to be exact. What's so key about Brody?
JoeTiVo likes this.
Young C is offline  
post #1726 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 06:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Seems like the initial push for the series, when they played up the Manchurian Candidate angle for months in promos before the show premiered is all gone now.

Name of the series related to the focus, about preventing a terrorist attack on US soil by a turned POW Marine.

That angle lasted one season though the bad guys was doing all kinds of stuff on US soil (like when they killed a CIA team at the bomb maker's shop or when Nazir flew in by copter and wreaked some mischief, or when the Iranians bombed Langley). Makes the protagonists on the show look kind of incompetent.


Maybe they can have some more threats to homeland plots next season, though that's mainly 24's schtick.
Young C likes this.
wco81 is online now  
post #1727 of 1775 Old 12-17-2013, 07:32 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

However, on AVS, if it's aired, it's fair game no matter the thread ..

Just don't bring up book discussion on the "Game of Thrones" HBO thread or a mod will soundly thump you .. tongue.gif

Oh yes, partner, you may recall that I am living proof of that, all of which went to show that even the most unrealistic spoilerphobics can beat down the sane among us once in a while. But enough of this, for this way lies madness. smile.gif
gwsat is offline  
post #1728 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 09:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
jandron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Yeah, I bet the show will START in Turkey, but some string of events will bring Carrie back to the states, where she will become the next Jack Bauer. After all, it's the '24' guys, right?
jandron is offline  
post #1729 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 09:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Leftcoastdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil17108 View Post

It did not fell like a season finale, more as series finale. Yes it was very emotional and at the very end the it felt just like moving on down the line.

+1
Leftcoastdave is offline  
post #1730 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 10:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
hunter65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

No, that's how the episode starts - with no intro.

I thought it was a pretty lame finale in most respects. Plot holes big enough to drive a battleship through.

it's comments like this which have kept me away from this thread.
hunter65 is offline  
post #1731 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Young C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter65 View Post

it's comments like this which have kept me away from this thread.

Hey, no need to stop visiting a thread because of somebody's comments. Just read their post and keep going about your business smile.gif

Everybody won't share the same thoughts. No need to argue with the person, just skip over the post and enjoy reading the rest of the thread.

Next year you should participate in this thread more, hunter65.
Young C is offline  
post #1732 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 12:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
hunter65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young C View Post

Hey, no need to stop visiting a thread because of somebody's comments. Just read their post and keep going about your business smile.gif

Everybody won't share the same thoughts. No need to argue with the person, just skip over the post and enjoy reading the rest of the thread.

Next year you should participate in this thread more, hunter65.

Cool, it's just the constant bashing of the show which annoys me. I dont mean any disrespect to the poster. Peace out ( :
hunter65 is offline  
post #1733 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 12:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter65 View Post

Cool, it's just the constant bashing of the show which annoys me. I dont mean any disrespect to the poster. Peace out ( :

Do come back! Although I continue to like Homeland a lot and thought the season finale was terrific, I would be the first to concede that rdgrimes' criticisms of it were reasonable. Homeland has always been preposterous but those of us who have loved it have been able to rise above its frequent silliness because of how exciting it is and the uniformly wonderful performances by its ensemble cast. It is understandable, though, that some viewers would have choked on those parts of the plot, which, to put it gently, could not withstand critical analysis. smile.gif
gwsat is offline  
post #1734 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 02:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 1,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Do come back! Although I continue to like Homeland a lot and thought the season finale was terrific, I would be the first to concede that rdgrimes' criticisms of it were reasonable. Homeland has always been preposterous but those of us who have loved it have been able to rise above its frequent silliness because of how exciting it is and the uniformly wonderful performances by its ensemble cast. It is understandable, though, that some viewers would have choked on those parts of the plot, which, to put it gently, could not withstand critical analysis. smile.gif
I honestly don't recall many (any?) TV shows that withstand critical analysis. Certainly no sitcoms, none of the acronym crime shows, or any cop or fireman shows for that matter. Lawyer shows, nope. Maybe there should be thread about TV shows which completely reflect reality.
David James is online now  
post #1735 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 03:12 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mgkdragn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Illinois, East of St Louis
Posts: 10,511
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

I honestly don't recall many (any?) TV shows that withstand critical analysis. Certainly no sitcoms, none of the acronym crime shows, or any cop or fireman shows for that matter. Lawyer shows, nope. Maybe there should be thread about TV shows which completely reflect reality.

On AVS, it's generally a bloodbath .. especially (with rare exception) anything Sci Fi related .. wink.gif

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

mgkdragn is online now  
post #1736 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 53
People who've watched all 3 seasons have been very lenient with the plausibility gaps over the years.

Even the original premise of an American soldier turning against his country, even against the interests of his own family -- he cared more about avenging the death of Nazir's son than having his own children live with the burden that their father strapped on a suicide vest and assassinated the VP and other high govt. officials -- was a lot to take.

Then the stupid things kept piling on, like Carrie becoming sexually involved with the terrorist repeatedly and being allowed to continue working the case. Or Brody being out on the streets despite the video he made.

Or Brody texting from the situation room. Or Carrie running around Tehran. Or Javadi running around in the US. Or Nazir taking the chopper into the US.

You had to let a lot of things slide, because "what acting, what chemistry!"

It's like voting for a politician because he's a nice, likable guy, without regard to whether his policy ideas are good or even make sense. Of course people make those kinds of decisions in their personal lives all the time, going for the physically attractive person even if he or she is toxic or has emotional or personality issues.
wco81 is online now  
post #1737 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 1,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 57
deleted dopey comment smile.gif
David James is online now  
post #1738 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
taxman48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 55
taxman48 is online now  
post #1739 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 06:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

I honestly don't recall many (any?) TV shows that withstand critical analysis. Certainly no sitcoms, none of the acronym crime shows, or any cop or fireman shows for that matter. Lawyer shows, nope. Maybe there should be thread about TV shows which completely reflect reality.

You are right, of course. Every TV show has implausibility built in. Why? Because nothing could have less dramatic value than unvarnished reality. The test of any TV show is not whether its plots are filled with unreality. Instead, the test is how much of that unreality we are willing to ignore because the rest of the show it worth it. For reasons I have stated so many time in earlier posts I won't repeat them here, Homeland had enough going for it that rising above the unreality was surprisingly easy for me.
David James and StinDaWg like this.
gwsat is offline  
post #1740 of 1775 Old 12-18-2013, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cal1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

Wouldn't it be ironic that a show called Homeland would take place in Istanbul? ...Somehow I'm under th impression that Carrie will have to go back to the U.S.. I think Quinn should have an even more prominent role in the next season - but I don't want it to become a buddy-cop thing either between him and Carrie. However Rupert Friend does an impeccable job with his character. He showed her that he will always be there to support her in their last scene together. One of my favorite scenes of the episode.
.
I think that you're right about Quinn. He developed into an increasingly more interesting character as the season progressed. After he mistakenly killed the young boy his inner conflicts began to show themselves. He appears to be fond of and have great respect for Carrie, as crazed as she is at times. He denitely has her back and I suspect that he'll end up in Turkey with her.
hunter65 likes this.
Cal1981 is offline  
Reply HDTV Programming

Tags
Homeland The Complete First Season , Homeland The Complete Second Season Blu Ray
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off