'Pan Am' on ABC HD - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 237 Old 11-16-2011, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gameboy View Post

I don't think you understood my point.

The structural limitations come into play because of the speed. To land a heavier airplane, you have to fly faster (to create more lift). And because you are landing at a much higher speed, the force of impact during the landing will be much greater than what the structural is designed for.

This is why you have maximum landing weight, that goes in hand in hand with maximum landing speed.

Takeoff is a much much easier thing to deal with than landing.

Well no, not really, but we're diving into the techie weeds of aviation here, so this is likely OT. The higher speed required is due to increased angle of attack for the weight and will extend the landing rollout distance. And the wings are not designed to withstand the flex stress of the extra fuel in them during touchdown, as well as the gear and other components. Speed is the least of the issues unless you are dealing with a very short runway. And while I'm not sure of your meaning about takeoff being "much easier to deal with", I think most pilots I know would tell you that takeoff emergencies or abnormalities are far more worrisome than landing.

I'll leave it at that as I'm sure we're boring everyone else and I have stopped watching this show anyway, so I can't really comment on the reality of how it was shown. And while I never played a pilot on TV, I was one and have faced this situation before, just not in a B707. (And I prefer helicopters anyway - 110kt vs. .83 Mach just isn't the same)

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post #182 of 237 Old 11-16-2011, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

[like] !

.... I still enjoy watching it if nothing more than the eye candy, the ladies provide. Isn't that enough reason to watch? It isn't brain surgery you know.

+1, this show sure reminds me of shows on The CW. Everything is so perfect and everyone looks like 10s, even when just waking up Picture quality is also very nice, especially for ABC, I'll probably be around until the end.
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post #183 of 237 Old 11-17-2011, 12:46 PM
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[like] Actually it seems like you guys are just complaining to be complaining. If you can't understand this is just a TV show and not reality, then I can't help you. Even with all the things that I know are wrong with the show, I still enjoy watching it if nothing more than the eye candy, the ladies provide. Isn't that enough reason to watch? It isn't brain surgery you know.

I'd like to distinguish between criticizing the show in an attempt to argue that it is somehow inferior or unwatchable, and just having a little fun poking at the same kind of plot holes you'd find in any show. I'm generally enjoying the heck out of this show. It's one of the few shows from the new season I've stuck with. Nevertheless, it is perfectly legit to poke holes at some lazy writing from time to time.
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post #184 of 237 Old 11-17-2011, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vfxproducer View Post

I'd like to distinguish between criticizing the show in an attempt to argue that it is somehow inferior or unwatchable, and just having a little fun poking at the same kind of plot holes you'd find in any show. I'm generally enjoying the heck out of this show. It's one of the few shows from the new season I've stuck with. Nevertheless, it is perfectly legit to poke holes at some lazy writing from time to time.

Criticism of the writing is certainly warranted, but some of it is just plain silly. Beyond aviation wonks, no one cares about the landing stresses vs take off weight of a 707-121. That is what I am talking about.

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post #185 of 237 Old 11-18-2011, 04:31 AM
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But we would like to know how stairs magically appeared, then just as magically moved out of the way with a plane at max thrust and armed men coming into a closed airport.
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post #186 of 237 Old 11-18-2011, 04:44 AM
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But we would like to know how stairs magically appeared, then just as magically moved out of the way with a plane at max thrust and armed men coming into a closed airport.

That is an easy one.

"Magic of TV!"

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post #187 of 237 Old 11-18-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Criticism of the writing is certainly warranted, but some of it is just plain silly. Beyond aviation wonks, no one cares about the landing stresses vs take off weight of a 707-121. That is what I am talking about.

And I no longer even watch the show, so that should make it even worse for you. Seriously though, I stopped due to lack of interest, not anything to do with factual errors in aerodynamics - that was just to correct another comment.

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post #188 of 237 Old 11-19-2011, 07:36 PM
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This article makes it sound like the show really finished.

I knew the original series was ordered for 13 episodes, so could the one additional episode be to wrap things up?

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...action/111246/
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post #189 of 237 Old 11-20-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Criticism of the writing is certainly warranted, but some of it is just plain silly. Beyond aviation wonks, no one cares about the landing stresses vs take off weight of a 707-121. That is what I am talking about.

There are certain things that have been established in the film and television industry as signs of good workmanship.

For example, continuity. It's not necessary in any way. If stuff shifts around between shots or even if a character's hair color changes every thirty seconds, it doesn't really affect the story in any way. People can still follow the plot. There are many great silent films that have glaring continuity errors because it hadn't yet been something worth paying attention to.

But continuity is now an indication of quality behind the camera. That's why it's considered extremely important to people making films and television shows. It's also not that hard to do. If there isn't continuity, that's a strong indication that the people behind the camera simply don't care about the final product or are simply unable to produce a quality product.

Same thing with looking up a number when writing a script. If the script writer isn't willing to spend a minute or two finding the correct value of a real world number, that writer doesn't care about the final product and is not someone you would want to hire.

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post #190 of 237 Old 11-20-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

Same thing with looking up a number when writing a script. If the script writer isn't willing to spend a minute or two finding the correct value of a real world number, that writer doesn't care about the final product and is not someone you would want to hire.

If someone's shirt changes colors I'm sure a good percentage of people will notice. Also, it's been defined in their universe (as being one color). Some obscure weight limit has a zero percentage (rounded) affect on the viewers and was never defined in their universe to be incorrect. Even if one wishes it to be a documentary perhaps the number has changed over the years or the airline had modifications done to the plane. Also, he could have misread the number, looked up the wrong plane, etc. For me it's hunting a ghost... it's not an issue unless one wants to make it one.
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post #191 of 237 Old 11-20-2011, 12:52 PM
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Disagree. It's lazy writing. When writers could have worked the script with real facts but instead pull stuff out of thin air and write impossible stuff.

They should have asked themselves how they were were going to get the stairs to the plane and away from the plane. If they couldn't, then the storyline doesn't work. They should have arranged for medical support at their arrival but have them not show up for some reason. Make it credible.

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post #192 of 237 Old 11-20-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Disagree. It's lazy writing. When writers could have worked the script with real facts but instead pull stuff out of thin air and write impossible stuff.

They are telling a story not doing a documentary of real-time events. I don't disagree I might not like this or that... but it's not my vision and just like I'm not going to tell someone how to write a song I'm not going to tell them how to tell their story. I happen to love Mulholland Drive which might explain a thing or two. My take on this series is it's pretty much fantasyland... a dreamy look at the '60's and creating all of this credibility would simply carry it off course. Much like when you look back at past experiences you don't delve on the details.
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post #193 of 237 Old 11-21-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by VideoJames View Post

This article makes it sound like the show really finished.

The fact that they already tore down the green screen Pan Am terminal set was another good indicator. Somebody told them to finish off their episode order as cheap as possible, and that's never a good sign.
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post #194 of 237 Old 11-21-2011, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

If someone's shirt changes colors I'm sure a good percentage of people will notice.

But if the true landing weight of a 707 is not critical to the story then why would the color of a person's shirt be critical to the story unless the story is about someone's shirt?

Both are indications of laziness. You maintain continuity because you can. If you don't, you're not doing a good job. You make sure your script conforms to factual information as much as possible because you can. If you don't, you're not doing a good job.

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post #195 of 237 Old 11-21-2011, 10:55 AM
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But if the true landing weight of a 707 is not critical to the story then why would the color of a person's shirt be critical to the story unless the story is about someone's shirt?

The color of the shirt is only important (certainly not critical) if its been defined by the story. You are missing several points. The most important one being the weight never changed like the shirt's color. Also, factual information isn't based on your reality... rather the story's reality.
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post #196 of 237 Old 11-21-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

The color of the shirt is only important (certainly not critical) if its been defined by the story. You are missing several points. The most important one being the weight never changed like the shirt's color. Also, factual information isn't based on your reality... rather the story's reality.

The percentage of the audience who would know the difference in the weight of the plane, or care, is probably in the order of .1 percent or less. It's about the same as would notice, and care, that a scene filmed in downtown Los Angeles has the Chrysler Building composited in the background to make it look more like New York. It's statistically insignificant. This argument is really beating a dead horse.
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post #197 of 237 Old 11-23-2011, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Disagree. It's lazy writing. When writers could have worked the script with real facts but instead pull stuff out of thin air and write impossible stuff.

They are telling a story not doing a documentary of real-time events.

Point is, no one is saying that they must fly real airplanes and shoot them... er... from another real airplane. It is just that as a viewer I want to see that the filmmakers did as much as they could considering budget constraints. It costs nothing to verify airplane weight, for example. A friend of mine threw a space-themed child party and drew the Solar system on a black sheet of paper. Mercury and Mars were sharing the same orbit. Sure, our world will not collapse because of one silly picture, but if you feed people with junk, they will know nothing but junk. Maybe this is exactly what the higher-ups want the people to be - a gray mass of beer-drinking sofa-sitting TV-watchers.
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post #198 of 237 Old 11-24-2011, 05:24 AM
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If ABC isn't ordering any more episodes beyond the 14 they have, then all this talk of "take off weight is SO important to the story" is just a lot of bloviating for those who have nothing better to do. Right?

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post #199 of 237 Old 11-24-2011, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

If ABC isn't ordering any more episodes beyond the 14 they have, then all this talk of "take off weight is SO important to the story" is just a lot of bloviating for those who have nothing better to do. Right?

Well, maybe if they had gotten the take off weight correct, they would have gotten renewed.

Perhaps the lost audience was all pilots and flight attendants and they wanted more accuracy...
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post #200 of 237 Old 11-24-2011, 09:58 AM
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perhaps the lost audience was all pilots and flight attendants and they wanted more accuracy...

I agree
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post #201 of 237 Old 11-24-2011, 03:49 PM
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Upcoming scene from Pan Am:

Tower to Pilot:

"Pan Am 101, traffic ahead, reduce your speed to 110kts"

Pilot to Tower (in disbelief at the request)

"Tower, do you know the STALL SPEED of a B707??"

Tower to Pilot:

"No, but your co-pilot might know, or someone in the audience"

Ray
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post #202 of 237 Old 11-27-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Point is, no one is saying that they must fly real airplanes and shoot them... er... from another real airplane. It is just that as a viewer I want to see that the filmmakers did as much as they could considering budget constraints. It costs nothing to verify airplane weight, for example. A friend of mine threw a space-themed child party and drew the Solar system on a black sheet of paper. Mercury and Mars were sharing the same orbit. Sure, our world will not collapse because of one silly picture, but if you feed people with junk, they will know nothing but junk. Maybe this is exactly what the higher-ups want the people to be - a gray mass of beer-drinking sofa-sitting TV-watchers.

Excellent point

I'm no pilot but blatant errors made because of lazy writing with a total disregard for audience members who are awake is both annoying and insulting. Then again, I'm only watching because my wife wants company.
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post #203 of 237 Old 11-27-2011, 09:57 AM
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Well no, not really, but we're diving into the techie weeds of aviation here, so this is likely OT. The higher speed required is due to increased angle of attack for the weight and will extend the landing rollout distance. And the wings are not designed to withstand the flex stress of the extra fuel in them during touchdown, as well as the gear and other components. Speed is the least of the issues unless you are dealing with a very short runway. And while I'm not sure of your meaning about takeoff being "much easier to deal with", I think most pilots I know would tell you that takeoff emergencies or abnormalities are far more worrisome than landing.

I'll leave it at that as I'm sure we're boring everyone else and I have stopped watching this show anyway, so I can't really comment on the reality of how it was shown. And while I never played a pilot on TV, I was one and have faced this situation before, just not in a B707. (And I prefer helicopters anyway - 110kt vs. .83 Mach just isn't the same)

I don't think you realize that you are arguing against a guy with an aerospace engineering degree. I have designed my own airplanes. As a pilot you may have a working understanding, but I don't think quite grok the physics involved.

You don't need increased angle of attack. You need more lift, which is why you have to travel faster. The increase in speed will cause increased stress on landing gear when you do land.
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post #204 of 237 Old 11-28-2011, 09:42 AM
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I don't think you realize that you are arguing against a guy with an aerospace engineering degree. I have designed my own airplanes. As a pilot you may have a working understanding, but I don't think quite grok the physics involved.

You don't need increased angle of attack. You need more lift, which is why you have to travel faster. The increase in speed will cause increased stress on landing gear when you do land.

I meant to say "stall speed" but AOA was in my mind and got typed by mistake - the stall speed is higher due to the excess weight (also the AOA will increase), thus requiring a higher approach and landing speed (Vref). However, your degree notwithstanding, speed is not the limiting issue - high speed landings are done rather often due to other failures such as no flaps available, etc and the speed is not damaging, you just need a lot more runway - it is the landing weight flexing the wings, gear and other structures on impact. I 'grok' the physics just fine -- BUT I'm finished talking about this very OT subject as others have suggested.

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post #205 of 237 Old 11-29-2011, 02:56 PM
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TV Notes
ABC Grounds 'Pan Am' -- For Now
By Philiana Ng, The Hollywood Reporter's 'Live Feed' Blog - November 29th, 2011

ABC has pulled back on 1960s aviation drama Pan Am.

The network will produce only one more episode of the five additional scripts ordered, meaning the drama's first season will have a total of 14 produced episodes. ABC will air the six remaining originals beginning this Sunday, with five being broadcast in January.

Insiders say the show is still in contention for next season but will step aside to make room for midseason series GCB.

"Well, we received THE call, #PanAm is only coming back for one more episode after Christmas," tweeted cast member Karine Vanasse, who plays Colette, on Tuesday. "But up to the end, we'll give it our all !"

After launching to promising numbers on Sept. 25, the hourlong drama lost more than 3 million viewers for its second episode, averaging 7.8 million and posting a 2.6 rating in adults 18-49, down from the 3.1 it drew in its opener. The series didn't settle down in its third week, dropping to 6.4 million and a 1.9, down 27 percent in the demo.

Created by Jack Orman and developed by Nancy Hult Ganis, Pan Am was a big bet for ABC and Sony, which spent an estimated $10 million to produce the pilot episode. We're not going to spend like drunken fools, but it needs to look a certain way for ABC to be happy and advertisers to be happy and deliver great results for Sony," Sony TV president Steve Mosko said in an interview earlier this year.

The series, starring Christina Ricci, Mike Vogel and Kelli Garner, recently secured Twilight's Ashley Greene for a recurring stint, and had recently named a new showrunner, Lost producer Steven Maeda.

The Hollywood Reporter's chief television critic Tim Goodman noted that Pan Am seemed to be content with showcasing the glamorous side of being a Pan Am stewardess rather than touching on issues of the time period in a substantial manner. "It has neither the exactitude of the times nor the talent of the writers to get at the issues, ala Mad Men, that illuminate the issues of the day," he wrote. "It only has the magazine ad dreams of the times - girls don't have to be their mothers; they can also be modern women who get weighed at work and dumped at 32 for being too old."

Pan Am revolves around the pilots and the stewardesses of the iconic Pan Am airline in 1963.

Lesley Goldberg contributed to this report.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...-am-abc-249149
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post #206 of 237 Old 12-25-2011, 09:16 AM
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Don't know if this is the network making a push to get the show out there or simply a sign that it's headed for a permanent grounding, but ALL NINE EPISODES (in both SD and HD) are currently available for FREE at the iTunes Music Store.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season/pan-am-season-1/id457951754[/url]
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post #207 of 237 Old 12-25-2011, 01:21 PM
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I noticed that last night... Was thinking about downloading them while they are free just in case.

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post #208 of 237 Old 12-26-2011, 03:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jediphish View Post

Don't know if this is the network making a push to get the show out there or simply a sign that it's headed for a permanent grounding, but ALL NINE EPISODES (in both SD and HD) are currently available for FREE at the iTunes Music Store.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season/pan-am-season-1/id457951754[/url]

I seem to remember when "How I Met Your Mother" first came out Amazon gave out episodes for free. Not sure if it helped ratings certainly didn't hurt.

Networks should take this kind of approach with their low rated shows. people can't watch if they don't know these shows exist or they're on at inconvenient times.
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post #209 of 237 Old 12-26-2011, 06:54 AM
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Vudu is giving away the 1st season of Pan Am for free. This is the first time I've seen them give away a full TV season to own.

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post #210 of 237 Old 01-23-2012, 11:05 AM
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has anybody noticed when watching Pan Am in HD with surround sound, the surround effect breaks occasionally so there is an echo in the center channel? like the surround channels get faded to the center for a few seconds, then fade back out?

This has happened enough times regularly, multiple times over multiple episodes for me to notice it. Have not noticed this much on other shows although it may happen more rarely on other ABC shows like Once Upon a Time.

This is on a 7.1 system driven by Denon AVR2809 in Dolby Digital +ProLogic IIx Cinema with the show playing from Tivo HD recording from Comcast HD.
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