'Luck' on HBO - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 263 Old 03-14-2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I'll "bet" they wouldn't have cancelled if their accountants & lawyers figured they could absorb the legal costs and still make money on 600,000 viewers. If # of viewers were in Soprano territory, they probably would have ate the legal costs and continued on.

I agree, I think HBO was happy for this easy out rather than deal with the 'another failed HBO venture, HBO has the lost the golden touch' type story. Better to have it go down in flames with people talking about dead horses--from HBO's point of view anyway.
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post #182 of 263 Old 03-14-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I'll "bet" they wouldn't have cancelled if their accountants & lawyers figured they could absorb the legal costs and still make money on 600,000 viewers. If # of viewers were in Soprano territory, they probably would have ate the legal costs and continued on.


hope we don't get another Sopranos non-ending - Dustin Hoffman steps onto Mike's yacht and....blank screen. That would suck.

I can't, and won't, say what my opinion is on the reasons behind the cancellation (I wouldn't have been mixing the second season anyways.)

I can speculate, however, that I don't think it was a surprise to those in the know.

You won't be disappointed with how season one ends up.

Mimi Leder directed episode 9 and it is definitely one of my favorites.

Enjoy.
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post #183 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 04:33 AM
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PETA kills another show.
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post #184 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 05:16 AM
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And just when I was finally starting to figure things out, too.

From what I read, which probably isn't the whole story of course, HBO hired qualified people to advise them on safety procedures, and then ignored many of their recommendations. There were horses used during the racing sequences that were already injured or sick and shouldn't have been on the track galloping at full speed in close quarters. That could be why 2 of them broke their legs and had to be put down. Now, did they do that to save money? Would it have been more expensive to stage the race sequences with better horses, and did HBO "cheap out"? As to the latest death, that does sound like a freak accident where nobody could or should be blamed.... or maybe it was the result of an inexperienced groom handling the horse, again to save money. We just don't know.

Point is, until there's an investigation and the results are released to the public, all we can do is speculate about what happened and why HBO actually pulled the plug. I, for one, would be interested to hear FilmMixer's opinions if he has some "inside" knowledge. He is anonymous on the Forum, after all.
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post #185 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I, for one, would be interested to hear FilmMixer's opinions if he has some "inside" knowledge. He is anonymous on the Forum, after all.

Yes, to you and me and others not in the business. He's probably dropped enough cookie crumbs where he could be identified by others in the business that have worked on the same things. Regardless, he should still tell us what he knows. Take one for the team.

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post #186 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wanderer View Post

PETA kills another show.

PETA called them out back in January but they were rebuffed. Producers David Milch and Michael Mann together with HBO decided to cease all future productions, not PETA. But lets just blame PETA.

H***** a** a******, s* W**, i* d****** m***** w*** h*** c**** t* t***, r****? H***, l**** h*** o*** s***** o* a** a******, k** t** f***8 o** I* s**** a** g* f*** t****. S***** l*** f** t* m*. A**** a**, t***’** j*** a******. A******, h*!

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post #187 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 08:02 AM
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wow!

That's crazy.

Sorry to all you 'Luck' fans
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post #188 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I can't, and won't, say what my opinion is

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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I, for one, would be interested to hear FilmMixer's opinions if he has some "inside" knowledge. He is anonymous on the Forum, after all.

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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

he could be identified by others in the business that have worked on the same things. Regardless, he should still tell us what he knows. Take one for the team.

I would wager that FilmMixer would love to speak his mind. But what people do not understand, or aware of, is when working on any productionspecifically an HBO production, you have to sign your life away on pages of legal documents. One would think, after completing the new job paperwork, that they hand you the keys to a new house. It is pretty intimidating.

The reality is-- he is legally stifled. There's no anonymous defense. I know this for a fact-- from personal experience. That said, I appreciate his fine work and his posts.

Larry

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post #189 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 09:02 AM
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From HBO and the series producers:

Quote:


"We maintained the highest safety standards throughout production, higher in fact than any protocols existing in horseracing anywhere with many fewer incidents than occur in racing or than befall horses normally in barns at night or pastures. While we maintained the highest safety standards possible, accidents unfortunately happen and it is impossible to guarantee they won't in the future. Accordingly, we have reached this difficult decision.

IOW, the horses working in the series were safer in all respects than they would be when simply living life as racing stock. That's the hard reality, and apparently lost on the likes of AHA and PETA, who prefer to garner headlines than to actually try to improve the lives of animals.
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post #190 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

As far as the horse deaths are concerned, I share in the feeling of being sad it occurred and the fact there were 3 of them is a bit hard to rationalize but accidents do happen and risks are a part of life. Vic Morrow was killed filming the movie version of Twilight Zone doing a stunt. Racing fans have witnessed the deaths of stars like Earnhardt, Aryton Senna in F1, a number of Indy 500 deaths over the years and the latest, Dan Wheldon at last yr's Indy race at Las Vegas.

The difference is all of those people voluntarily put themselves in harm's way.

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PETA kills another show.

LOL... which shows have PETA "killed"?
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post #191 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gruven42 View Post

The difference is all of those people voluntarily put themselves in harm's way.


LOL... which shows have PETA "killed"?

Oh great, the defenseless animal argument.
Peta brings in masses of members by striking an emotional nerve in people. You can google "PETA KILLS" and see pages of stories. The majority of us love and care for animals. Peta has their own warped agenda. And this is a show they killed.

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post #192 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

From HBO and the series producers:



IOW, the horses working in the series were safer in all respects than they would be when simply living life as racing stock. That's the hard reality, and apparently lost on the likes of AHA and PETA, who prefer to garner headlines than to actually try to improve the lives of animals.

One: you're believing a network issued press release, written by HBO's PR department, as gospel truth. In fact, as has been posted, HBO was forced to use older and less healthy horses for those thrilling, thunderous racing sequences because the better, healthier horses were unavailable to them. That put the production more at risk from the outset.

Two: You're slandering people whom you don't know, and who in fact are trying to improve the lives of animals. That's their life. It may seem overbearing to you; occasionally it does me as well (tossing blood on people wearing furs, for example). But these are folks who have done a lot of good in the world by changing the way Hollywood does business and animals have benefited from their efforts. They don't deserve the enmity that's constantly heaped upon them by people who really don't know what they do.
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post #193 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

Oh great, the defenseless animal argument.
Peta brings in masses of members by striking an emotional nerve in people. You can google "PETA KILLS" and see pages of stories. The majority of us love and care for animals. Peta has their own warped agenda. And this is a show they killed.

Great counter-argument.

So, no examples?
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post #194 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gruven42 View Post

Great counter-argument.

So, no examples?

Examples take us off topic. Google for yourself.

Larry

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post #195 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

It may seem overbearing to you; occasionally it does me as well (tossing blood on people wearing furs, for example).

This is their image-- of their choosing with their actions and their advertising campaigns. There is no room for this style of gorilla tactics. As you said, it bothers all of us.
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But these are folks who have done a lot of good in the world by changing the way Hollywood does business and animals have benefited from their efforts. They don't deserve the enmity that's constantly heaped upon them by people who really don't know what they do.

I don't give PETA any credit. There are actual humane organizations but not the ones "tossing horse crap" at the production.

Larry

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post #196 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

One: you're believing a network issued press release, written by HBO's PR department, as gospel truth. In fact, as has been posted, HBO was forced to use older and less healthy horses for those thrilling, thunderous racing sequences because the better, healthier horses were unavailable to them. That put the production more at risk from the outset.

Two: You're slandering people whom you don't know, and who in fact are trying to improve the lives of animals. That's their life. It may seem overbearing to you; occasionally it does me as well (tossing blood on people wearing furs, for example). But these are folks who have done a lot of good in the world by changing the way Hollywood does business and animals have benefited from their efforts. They don't deserve the enmity that's constantly heaped upon them by people who really don't know what they do.

And you're choosing to believe PR department press releases from PETA and AHA.
Congratulations on buying into the PETA and AHA agenda. I do, in fact, have personal experience with both organizations and know a good deal about them and how they operate. Precious little of what they do actually improves the lives of animals, and there are many documented cases where the opposite has been true. Suffice it to say that of the multi-million dollar budgets they operate with, almost no money actually benefits animals directly. It does however manage to pay massive executive salaries, fund press releases and public campaigns, etc, etc.

Point being that if they really wanted to improve the lives of animals, they would be going after the racing industry, not the TV production trying to portray it. Hollywood treats animals better than they do people.

And for the record, hundreds of people just lost their jobs, maybe thousands if you include the ripple effect. Many of those people own and support horses.
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post #197 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:44 AM
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And you're choosing to believe PR department press releases from PETA and AHA.

Wait, so you believe HBO when it says the highest standard was used but don't believe it when it says it made the decision to pull the plug? Talk about picking and choosing facts.

Quote:


Point being that if they really wanted to improve the lives of animals, they would be going after the racing industry, not the TV production trying to portray it. Hollywood treats animals better than they do people.

The two are mutually exclusive? You don't think PETA and the American Humane Association - a "radical fringe" group founded in 1877 - isn't involved with racing practices? The AHA has a film and television unit that's been monitoring animals on set since the 1940s. It hardly means they aren't involved with animal care and safety in other industries. In fact, they are.

Quote:


And for the record, hundreds of people just lost their jobs, maybe thousands if you include the ripple effect. Many of those people own and support horses.

HBO produced the program, HBO funded the program, HBO decided to end production. HBO is no stranger to criticism from advocacy groups for its programming, having received plenty of it for other shows. If it decided to allow criticism to be a factor in its decision - assuming for the sake of argument that's the case - guess what? Still HBO's choice. As HBO said in its statement that you quoted:

Quote:


While we maintained the highest safety standards possible, accidents unfortunately happen and it is impossible to guarantee they won’t in the future. Accordingly, we have reached this difficult decision.

Responsibility rests with HBO for how the production ran and how it ended.
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post #198 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:45 AM
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And you're choosing to believe PR department press releases from PETA and AHA.

No, actually I'm not. Didn't even realize there were any. You clearly have a lot of antagonism regarding PETA and the Humane Society and nothing I nor anyone else might say about the good they do will dissuade you. So be it.

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And for the record, hundreds of people just lost their jobs, maybe thousands if you include the ripple effect. Many of those people own and support horses.

And you're determined to blame the animal rights organizations for this cancellation? The fact is that 3 thoroughbred horses died during the filming of the first 11 episodes of this show, and none were even injured during the productions of Secretariat, Seabiscuit or War Horse, just to name the most recent three films making heavy use of these animals. And the major animal rights organizations were present there as well.

HBO made this decision because they really didn't have any choice after these tragedies, not because the Humane Association made them do it. But you can continue to demean and blame the people who were trying to look out for those animals if you prefer. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
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post #199 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:52 AM
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Responsibility rests with HBO for how the production ran and how it ended.

Of course it is HBO's final decision. They chose not to spend money-- for their defense and for the suspension of production. But without the gorilla tactics that PETA practices, maybe they wouldn't have caved.

Larry

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post #200 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 10:58 AM
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Of course it is HBO's final decision. They chose not to spend money-- for their defense and for the suspension of production. But without the gorilla tactics that PETA practices, maybe they wouldn't have caved.

Three horses dead in 11 episodes. That was the unfortunate reality. How could they not pull the plug? That's a level of carnage that would cross over into the general public's impression of the network even if the animal rights organizations said nothing.

You know Milch has to be devastated about this. It's doubtful anyone loves thoroughbreds and the whole racing scene more than him.
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post #201 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

Of course it is HBO's final decision. They chose not to spend money-- for their defense and for the suspension of production. But without the gorilla tactics that PETA practices, maybe they wouldn't have caved.

What "gorilla" tactics? Did they destroy equipment? Disrupt the set? Stage demonstrations? As far as I can tell, they made a lot of noise with PR releases. I classify this as "free speech." People are allowed to voice their opinions. And people - you, me, HBO - are entitled to ignore, disagree vehemently or be influenced by it.

The AHA did have a hand in suspending production since it was officially monitoring the set. That's its designated job and of course it would issue a stop production order after the death of another horse while it conducted its own investigation. What else was it suppose to do? Are you seriously suggesting production should have continued after a THIRD horse died while the AHA investigated? It would have been reckless and irresponsible not to stop during an investigation.

And yes, investigations cost time and money. Tough. That's what happens when incidents, especially ones that result in death, occur in any workplace.
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post #202 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Three horses dead in 11 episodes. That was the unfortunate reality. How could they not pull the plug? That's a level of carnage that would cross over into the general public's impression of the network even if the animal rights organizations said nothing.

You know Milch has to be devastated about this. It's doubtful anyone loves thoroughbreds and the whole racing scene more than him.

It's exhausting arguing this on two threads.

Yes, you're right. Milch loves horses and has to be heartbroken but there is more to this. The expense of suspending production is probably close to the actual production. We're coming into the prime time of horse racing with the Triple Crown races around the corner and the "qualifying" races already begun. Maybe he's getting pressure from the race industry. They might have an impact also. Who knows, I think he didn't want to constantly put up with the abuse in Hollywood from the dung throwers.

Larry

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post #203 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Three horses dead in 11 episodes. That was the unfortunate reality. How could they not pull the plug? That's a level of carnage that would cross over into the general public's impression of the network even if the animal rights organizations said nothing.

And how many horses are injured and put down at that same track during a comparable period of time when filming is not going on? I'm guessing more, many more. You can call it "carnage", but where's the outrage for those other horses?
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post #204 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by peterlee View Post

What "gorilla" tactics?

They said "HBO murders horses!" already. They have pressured Milch prior to the start of the original production. Come on, are you not familiar with their tactics?

HBO would not allow it to get to that point-- the examples you cite-- but you have to know that this is PETA's style. Maybe they would send a bunch of naked women over to rake havok on the set.

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post #205 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:23 AM
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as I usually do with these type series, it resides on the DVR waiting for a matahon weekend watch when it ends ..

Oh, well, hopefully, when I do watch, what's left of it will be good ..

Uncle Willie



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post #206 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

And how many horses are injured and put down at that same track during a comparable period of time when filming is not going on? I'm guessing more, many more. You can call it "carnage", but where's the outrage for those other horses?

Quote:


HORSE RACING DEATHS

Following are thoroughbred fatalities in California over the past 10 years. A change in the way the CHRB calculated each racing year resulted in some horse deaths in the second half of 2007 appearing twice in the totals. Synthetic tracks were mandated at major tracks in California starting in 2007.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/...s-fuel-debate/

Code:
July 2008-June 2009: 320

July 2007-June 2008: 325

Nov. 2006-Nov. 2007: 301

Nov. 2005-Nov. 2006: 317

Nov. 2004-Nov. 2005: 320

Nov. 2003-Nov. 2004: 243

Nov. 2002-Nov. 2003: 229

Nov. 2001-Nov. 2002: 257

Nov. 2000-Nov. 2001: 236

Nov. 1999-Nov. 2000: 259
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post #207 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

They said "HBO murders horses!" already. They have pressured Milch prior to the start of the original production. Come on, are you not familiar with their tactics?

This thing you keep on calling a "tactic" is speech. It's hyperbolic and over-the-top but it's speech. And the best way is to rebut it is with counter-arguments delivered with a measured tone, not criticize them for speaking out. They "pressured" Milch before the show started shooting? Milch is a tough guy, he endured and the show started shooting. I don't see the problem with any person or group making their opinions known. If they want to be obnoxious about it, it won't win them any points in my book but they're entitled to voice their advocacy the way they want.

For me, the best way to handle pressure advocacy groups is to ignore them, not wish they would shut up or go away. I think the Parents Television Council is silly but I don't have a problem with them speaking out. The same goes for PETA.
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post #208 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Code:
July 2008-June 2009: 320
 
July 2007-June 2008: 325
 
Nov. 2006-Nov. 2007: 301
 
Nov. 2005-Nov. 2006: 317
 
Nov. 2004-Nov. 2005: 320
 
Nov. 2003-Nov. 2004: 243
 
Nov. 2002-Nov. 2003: 229
 
Nov. 2001-Nov. 2002: 257
 
Nov. 2000-Nov. 2001: 236
 
Nov. 1999-Nov. 2000: 259

That. Is. Incredible. The must shoot any nag that doesn't win, place, or show to get to that level of carnage. Had no idea it was anywhere near that bad. I guarantee the general public sure doesn't. Guess PETA and the AHA's "tactics" must not be working very well.

And that's only one state. I can sure see why the racing industry would want to keep those stats under wraps. Maybe it was them who pressured HBO to shut down production, to keep the industry's dirty laundry from being aired.
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post #209 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

That. Is. Incredible. The must shoot any nag that doesn't win, place, or show to get to that level of carnage. Had no idea it was anywhere near that bad. I guarantee the general public sure doesn't. Guess PETA and the AHA's "tactics" must not be working very well.

And that's only one state. I can sure see why the racing industry would want to keep those stats under wraps. Maybe it was them who pressured HBO to shut down production, to keep the industry's dirty laundry from being aired.

Like I posted earlier, it's common across race tracks all across the country as well as training centers such as horse farms in Kentucky and elsewhere. 1000's of horses die every year related to this sport since it began a few thousand years ago.

Also consider that the federal government has signed into law the renewed slaughter of horses back on Nov 18, 2011.
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There are over 9 million horses in the United States today; just over one percent, approximately 125,000 are slaughtered each year.
http://www.huliq.com/10473/us-horse-...obama-congress

The loss of any sort of life is tragic, relatively speaking, for people to get all up in arms over the loss of 3 horses over an 18 month period is ridiculous in my opinion, and these horses were probably treated a hell of a lot better during their life than most of those other 125,000.
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post #210 of 263 Old 03-15-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Like I posted earlier, it's common across race tracks all across the country as well as training centers such as horse farms in Kentucky and elsewhere. 1000's of horses die every year related to this sport since it began a few thousand years ago.

Also consider that the federal government has signed into law the renewed slaughter of horses back on Nov 18, 2011.


The loss of any sort of life is tragic, relatively speaking, for people to get all up in arms over the loss of 3 horses over an 18 month period is ridiculous in my opinion, and these horses were probably treated a hell of a lot better during their life than most of those other 125,000.

I think, in part, its because it’s a TV show, which generally means its not real, where measures are taken to protect the safety of animals and you rarely hear of them being killed.

Its sad and unfortunate how many horses are killed in the racing industry, but because it’s a business with a lot of money involved, a lot of powerful money, its allowed to slide. I suspect if the public knew those figures there would be more of an outcry than there is. I know I had no idea. Hopefully, out of tragedy comes enlightenment.
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