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post #1261 of 1605 Old 12-13-2013, 09:30 PM
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Hank and Nick seem to have each grown a pair. No more mister by the book mr. nice guy. "You kill him - No? Then I'll kill him..."
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post #1262 of 1605 Old 12-14-2013, 04:13 PM
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That was some nasty looking creature, Wessen or not. The use of them in the Praetorian Guard was a stretch. If that were the case those buggers would have made the general history books, not just Grimm journals.

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post #1263 of 1605 Old 12-14-2013, 10:31 PM
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Hank and Nick seem to have each grown a pair. No more mister by the book mr. nice guy. "You kill him - No? Then I'll kill him..."
I noticed that too.cool.gif

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That was some nasty looking creature, Wessen or not. The use of them in the Praetorian Guard was a stretch. If that were the case those buggers would have made the general history books, not just Grimm journals.
You haven't heard of "The Secret History of the Praetorian Guards?"tongue.gif

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post #1264 of 1605 Old 12-14-2013, 11:01 PM
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I think David Greenwalt stole the mask from the set of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. "One More, With Feeling" had a demon with that same face and horns, IIRC.

I'd also like to know how two unrelated episodes qualify as "Part 1" and "Part 2". rolleyes.gif Is it a good sign or a bad sign that NBC decided to burn two episodes in one night? I'm guessing they just got behind by an episode during the season and decided it would be less of a waste to do two in one night than to show the Christmas one after the new year.
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post #1265 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 12:01 AM
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That was some nasty looking creature, Wessen or not. The use of them in the Praetorian Guard was a stretch. If that were the case those buggers would have made the general history books, not just Grimm journals.

I think maybe that sketch was how they would appear to a Grimm, not necessarily to ordinary humans.

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post #1266 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 12:05 AM
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I might have to take another look, but did anyone see any religious symbolism at all in this episode, even (especially) in Monroe's house? Santas, trains, lights, tinsel, ornaments... I saw no real indication that to Wessen, this is actually a religious holiday.

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post #1267 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 07:53 AM
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I might have to take another look, but did anyone see any religious symbolism at all in this episode, even (especially) in Monroe's house? Santas, trains, lights, tinsel, ornaments... I saw no real indication that to Wessen, this is actually a religious holiday.


Anyone unfamiliar with Christmas could walk through any mall in America, past all the Christmas sales, and never guess its a religious holiday.smile.gif Even the muzak is jingle bells and frosty the snowman instead of silent night. Not saying that's wrong or right, its just the way it is.

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post #1268 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 08:20 AM
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Anyone unfamiliar with Christmas could walk through any mall in America, past all the Christmas sales, and never guess its a religious holiday.smile.gif Even the muzak is jingle bells and frosty the snowman instead of silent night. Not saying that's wrong or right, its just the way it is.

Indeed, but that's not my point. There are few homes you could visit where Christmas is celebrated that don't include Baby Jesus imagery amongst their Christmas decorations, at least not inside. And if you did find that, it would tell you something about the people that live there.

Winter celebrations with gift-giving have roots deep in ancient cultures, and it's credible that Wessen have (like Christians did) absorbed many cultural influences into a holiday that they now identify as "Christmas" simply as part of their ongoing efforts to blend in. I'm still having fun trying to figure out whether there is anything supernatural in this universe -- and whether the Wessen themselves believe in anything supernatural (since they themselves account for much of what normal humans consider to be so).

Keeping in mind, of course, that even in reality if you can prove it exists, it's not supernatural.

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post #1269 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 12:44 PM
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I might have to take another look, but did anyone see any religious symbolism at all in this episode, even (especially) in Monroe's house? Santas, trains, lights, tinsel, ornaments... I saw no real indication that to Wessen, this is actually a religious holiday.
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Indeed, but that's not my point. There are few homes you could visit where Christmas is celebrated that don't include Baby Jesus imagery amongst their Christmas decorations, at least not inside. And if you did find that, it would tell you something about the people that live there.

Winter celebrations with gift-giving have roots deep in ancient cultures, and it's credible that Wessen have (like Christians did) absorbed many cultural influences into a holiday that they now identify as "Christmas" simply as part of their ongoing efforts to blend in. I'm still having fun trying to figure out whether there is anything supernatural in this universe -- and whether the Wessen themselves believe in anything supernatural (since they themselves account for much of what normal humans consider to be so).

Keeping in mind, of course, that even in reality if you can prove it exists, it's not supernatural.
The show should really stay away from the supernatural realm.
Muddying up the waters isn't going to help the series at all.
There is plenty of Wessen material to keep the show from gathering moss.wink.gif

The whole point about Wessen is they are, in fact, natural.
Although "hidden" from modern society, they are part of life on this planet.

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post #1270 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 03:47 PM
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The whole point about Wessen is they are, in fact, natural.
Although "hidden" from modern society, they are part of life on this planet.

Which sorta begs the question: What exactly is a Grimm? They have abilities the rest of us don't. I don't know if the show will delve into the backstory that much, but there could be an interesting mythology as to the Grimm's place in the natural order. Maybe there was a wessen-human encounter at some point in Nick's bloodline...

The show also missed a chance to turn the show darker when Monroe's gf told the tale of her aunt and uncle. Instead of something as mundane as a car crash, what if they had been killed by a Grimm? Which by the time frame would probably mean Nick's mother or aunt...that could have been interesting.

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post #1271 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 03:51 PM
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I'm hoping Alexis Denisof plays a major role going forward. It was good to see him on TV again.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm feeling like the whole "Royals" sub-plot is turning into this season's Juliette. It drags on and on without ever revealing anything substantial, and we still don't know why we should be afraid of them or why it's such a big deal who succeeds the dead prince. Thus far we've seen nothing to indicate that they have any resources at their disposal that various Wessen and Grimms couldn't easily overcome.
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post #1272 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 04:58 PM
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Which sorta begs the question: What exactly is a Grimm? They have abilities the rest of us don't. I don't know if the show will delve into the backstory that much, but there could be an interesting mythology as to the Grimm's place in the natural order. Maybe there was a wessen-human encounter at some point in Nick's bloodline...
Since it "runs in the family," it would appear to have a strong genetic component.
Other than that, I don't have a clue.

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The show also missed a chance to turn the show darker when Monroe's gf told the tale of her aunt and uncle. Instead of something as mundane as a car crash, what if they had been killed by a Grimm? Which by the time frame would probably mean Nick's mother or aunt...that could have been interesting.
True.
I don't think the showrunners want this series to get too dark.wink.gif

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I'm hoping Alexis Denisof plays a major role going forward. It was good to see him on TV again.
+1

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Maybe it's just me, but I'm feeling like the whole "Royals" sub-plot is turning into this season's Juliette. It drags on and on without ever revealing anything substantial, and we still don't know why we should be afraid of them or why it's such a big deal who succeeds the dead prince. Thus far we've seen nothing to indicate that they have any resources at their disposal that various Wessen and Grimms couldn't easily overcome.
The Capt. said in Friday's episode(s) the Royals would once again rule the Wessen and everyone would have to "bow before them."

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post #1273 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 05:13 PM
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I'm hoping Alexis Denisof plays a major role going forward. It was good to see him on TV again.

.

It pains me to admit I missed him, and I've already deleted the episodes. Who did he play? Looked it up on IMDB and found no mention of him in the cast

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post #1274 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 06:30 PM
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I thought the Royals' new (old?) world order was related to whatever MacGuffin the [good guys] hid and put on the x keys map (forgot if it was Crusaders or Templars or Grimms, or how many keys there are). Albeit the coin(s) had put similar visions in the Captain's head...

Alexis Denisof is playing the new prince, right?


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post #1275 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 10:14 PM
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Yes, Denisof played the new prince.
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The Capt. said in Friday's episode(s) the Royals would once again rule the Wessen and everyone would have to "bow before them."
We've been given no indication as to how that would happen, though. The Royals are just humans, and 90% of the Wessen we've seen in the show could rip them to shreds with ease. The Royals don't seem threatening in the slightest, and that needs to change for us to have any reason to take them seriously.

Then again, the mythology of this show doesn't make much sense and doesn't seem to have been thought out from the beginning, anyway. As lonwolf pointed out, we don't even know what a Grimm is, and their "species" doesn't make much sense given what we do know, either. They have no special powers other than the ability to see Wessen for what they are, which isn't nearly enough to make their role believable. They're just as physically helpless as the Royals, so as Wessen after Wessen has observed, they really aren't as formidable as the stories make them out to be. It's hard to believe that any of Nick's ancestors could have taken out the Wessen they've supposedly slain, what with them being normal, weak humans. Now it's as if the writers seem to be retconning that oversight, and they've allowed Nick to retain his pseudo-zombification in order to give him Slayer powers and thus make his role more believable, even though we're three seasons into the show.
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post #1276 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 11:04 PM
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Indeed, but that's not my point. There are few homes you could visit where Christmas is celebrated that don't include Baby Jesus imagery amongst their Christmas decorations, at least not inside. And if you did find that, it would tell you something about the people that live there.

Winter celebrations with gift-giving have roots deep in ancient cultures, and it's credible that Wessen have (like Christians did) absorbed many cultural influences into a holiday that they now identify as "Christmas" simply as part of their ongoing efforts to blend in. I'm still having fun trying to figure out whether there is anything supernatural in this universe -- and whether the Wessen themselves believe in anything supernatural (since they themselves account for much of what normal humans consider to be so).

Keeping in mind, of course, that even in reality if you can prove it exists, it's not supernatural.

And what would that tell you?

I celebrate the season, but have zero religiosity. For me it's a touch stone to my familial past. For me this is a time of sharing, gathering and connecting. Perhaps I'm more Wessen than many....
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post #1277 of 1605 Old 12-15-2013, 11:38 PM
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Alexis Denisof is playing the new prince, right?
Correct.

I haven't seen him in a VERY long time and had often wondered what happened to him.
He was very good in Buffy/Angel.

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We've been given no indication as to how that would happen, though. The Royals are just humans, and 90% of the Wessen we've seen in the show could rip them to shreds with ease. The Royals don't seem threatening in the slightest, and that needs to change for us to have any reason to take them seriously.
Whatever the reason, they instill fear into Wessen.

Quote:
Then again, the mythology of this show doesn't make much sense and doesn't seem to have been thought out from the beginning, anyway. As lonwolf pointed out, we don't even know what a Grimm is, and their "species" doesn't make much sense given what we do know, either. They have no special powers other than the ability to see Wessen for what they are, which isn't nearly enough to make their role believable. They're just as physically helpless as the Royals, so as Wessen after Wessen has observed, they really aren't as formidable as the stories make them out to be. It's hard to believe that any of Nick's ancestors could have taken out the Wessen they've supposedly slain, what with them being normal, weak humans. Now it's as if the writers seem to be retconning that oversight, and they've allowed Nick to retain his pseudo-zombification in order to give him Slayer powers and thus make his role more believable, even though we're three seasons into the show.
I agree the show has been < clear on the hierarchy and definitions/abilities of everyone.
Hopefully, this will be addressed in the future.

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I celebrate the season, but have zero religiosity. For me it's a touch stone to my familial past. For me this is a time of sharing, gathering and connecting. Perhaps I'm more Wessen than many....
LOL.
FWIW, I think you are like most folks.wink.gif

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post #1278 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 04:08 AM
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I like the Santa episode, nice twist that the guy does not remember what happens and it only happens once a year like that. Plus the santa demon was cool looking.

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post #1279 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 06:01 AM
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 The Royals are just humans, and 90% of the Wessen we've seen in the show could rip them to shreds with ease. The Royals don't seem threatening in the slightest, and that needs to change for us to have any reason to take them seriously.
 
Then again, the mythology of this show doesn't make much sense and doesn't seem to have been thought out from the beginning, anyway. As lonwolf pointed out, we don't even know what a Grimm is, and their "species" doesn't make much sense given what we do know, either. They have no special powers other than the ability to see Wessen for what they are, which isn't nearly enough to make their role believable. They're just as physically helpless as the Royals, so as Wessen after Wessen has observed, they really aren't as formidable as the stories make them out to be.
 

 

Honestly same could be said for most dictators of the world or even mafia bosses.  Heck, any world leader.  Hitler was not physically imposing by any means, anyone could have "taken him out" but they didn't because of fear and the power they had.  Assuming the Royals actually don't have powers it's the same thing, they have power over people that make they be feared like a mafia boss.  Wessen get out of line they "disappear".  :)

 

As for Grimms, they are "superhuman" in terms of strength, agility, etc. and have been shown that.  Think of them as something like Captain America is the way I think of it.  Don't have real "powers" but is the best a human can be physically.  At least as we've seen so far.  The Wiki has a lot of details on this:  http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Grimm


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post #1280 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 07:44 AM
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As for Grimms, they are "superhuman" in terms of strength, agility, etc. and have been shown that.  Think of them as something like Captain America is the way I think of it.  Don't have real "powers" but is the best a human can be physically.  At least as we've seen so far.  The Wiki has a lot of details on this:  http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Grimm

I notice that much of that material comes from the comics. Is there any indication that the producers of the show consider the Grimm comics to be 'canon?' (I never knew these comics even existed.) Will the show always honor developments from the comics, or is it free to contradict them?

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post #1281 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 08:06 AM
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(I never knew these comics even existed.)
WHOA, neither did I.eek.gif

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post #1282 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 08:18 AM
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The Royals are the manipulators, balancing law/ order and crime, and having firm control over both.  They both use and offer protection to Wesens in return for favors.  They have the power of persuasion, or have such ruthless Wesen under their control that they gain compliance through fear.  They have strength by virtue of the control they have over Wesen.  They use The Council and the Verrat, Reapers and Grimms.  Zombie Man and even a priest does their bidding.  They also use objects obtained from Wesens, like potions.  The Grimms have at least two objects the Royals covet:  the coins, and whatever is hidden in the location the 7 keys will point to.  The gypsies have some use for a Royal's blood.  That's the least interesting story line to me, but I'm sure we'll know all about it before season's end.

 

I didn't see symbols of religion among Monroe's decorations, except for the music, Stille Nacht.  You could count the tree, introduced to Christmas celebrations by Martin Luther.  Monroe's ancestors were Germanic, but with the carnivore traditions they held, I would not expect the writers to make his Christmas look Christian.  I did expect a bit more German animation, not just a train.  But I recognized one ornament as the style my parents had from the 40s.  So that was cool.

 

Rick gained some powers (like super hearing and metabolism) from exposure to Wesen chemical attack.  ;)  

 

I wonder if having held the coins gives Renard some residual advantage of power.  He certainly convinced the rebels easily that he had what it takes to be their champion. 

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The Royals are the manipulators, balancing law/ order and crime, and having firm control over both.  They both use and offer protection to Wesens in return for favors.  They have the power of persuasion, or have such ruthless Wesen under their control that they gain compliance through fear.  They have strength by virtue of the control they have over Wesen.  They use The Council and the Verrat, Reapers and Grimms.  Zombie Man and even a priest does their bidding.  They also use objects obtained from Wesens, like potions.  The Grimms have at least two objects the Royals covet:  the coins, and whatever is hidden in the location the 7 keys will point to.  The gypsies have some use for a Royal's blood.  That's the least interesting story line to me, but I'm sure we'll know all about it before season's end.

RNick gained some powers (like super hearing and metabolism) from exposure to Wesen chemical attack.  wink.gif   
Nicely done.....thanx for the succinct explanations.cool.gif

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post #1284 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 04:34 PM
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Which sorta begs the question: What exactly is a Grimm? They have abilities the rest of us don't. I don't know if the show will delve into the backstory that much, but there could be an interesting mythology as to the Grimm's place in the natural order. Maybe there was a wessen-human encounter at some point in Nick's bloodline...

The show also missed a chance to turn the show darker when Monroe's gf told the tale of her aunt and uncle. Instead of something as mundane as a car crash, what if they had been killed by a Grimm? Which by the time frame would probably mean Nick's mother or aunt...that could have been interesting.

While I may be mis-remembering, I thought Nick nullified Adeline's powers when he was fighting her and some of his blood went into her mouth.

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post #1285 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 05:45 PM
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... RNick gained some powers (like super hearing and metabolism) from exposure to Wesen chemical attack. ...
I thought he picked up the super hearing when he had those worms in his eye. Later he and Monroe were out playing Fruit Ninja. Actually, at the time, I thought it was more discovering what he could do, rather than something specifically granted or resulting from one event. Separately, I thought the zombie power was generally just [failure to suffocate].

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post #1286 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 08:25 PM
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Ok, Cannon-Fodder, you're right, worms don't count as chemicals.  :)     Would "biological defenses" cover both conditions?    What I came away with on the worms was that they did change his hearing, and there were other times soon after that episode where they reinforced the hearing change.  But the zombie effect was more than failure to suffocate, the treadmill test and the email from the doctor both spoke to metabolic changes.   As I remember it, anyway.

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post #1287 of 1605 Old 12-16-2013, 10:31 PM
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It's given him Slayer strength, as he entered his zombie state to overpower the demon Santa.
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post #1288 of 1605 Old 12-17-2013, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 73shark View Post

While I may be mis-remembering, I thought Nick nullified Adeline's powers when he was fighting her and some of his blood went into her mouth.

Yes, he kissed her and got blood in her mouth. They stated that a Grimm's blood will remove a Vesen's power.

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post #1289 of 1605 Old 12-17-2013, 04:40 AM
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Oh, sorry, I read it that you were attributing both to the puffer fish. I still thought that they were just trying to make him more Grimm-ly as he discovered his powers, but it would be interesting if the real Grimm power is "what does not kill us, makes us stronger". (Well, kill us for very long then...) I would rather it be that than the "Nick is the Über-Grimm" bit.

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post #1290 of 1605 Old 12-17-2013, 06:33 AM
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C-F, you read it differently because I wasn't very clear.  I like the "what does not kill us, makes us stronger" thought.   I don't see Nick discovering innate Grimm super powers, it's more that he had the Grimms' collective knowledge and specialized weapons to keep him alive long enough to train.  The new abilities are more like inoculations, if he survives.   

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