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post #211 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 12:05 PM
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I loved the season finale. Thought Karen's closing number as Marilyn was sensational and Ivy's profound depression over another rejection moved me. What a way to live, NOT! Despite its soap opera elements the show has been strong enough, especially musically, to keep me wanting more. Can hardly wait for Season 2!
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post #212 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 12:50 PM
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We really enjoyed it as well, I even forgive them the conceit of Karen learning the 2nd act of a show in an afternoon. And the finale, when did she learn that, during the intermission? Having said that, it was the most satisfying episode in quite a while, and really tied up the season nicely. We'll be back next year.
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post #213 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 01:37 PM
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Yeah, you really have to suspend reality a bit with the rush to nearly re-write the show in 1/2 day and the u/s to learn most of it in even less time. But, it still is highly entertaining and there is obvious room for the new season to expand. And of course, Ellis would be in jail, not plotting his revenge ("you haven't heard the last from me").

Ray
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." -Jonathan Swift
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post #214 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 02:26 PM
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Well the obvious solution is the before and after Marilyn story with McPhee as the before innocent Marilyn and Hilty as the after drugged blonde Marilyn. I just kept waiting for that to happen in the finale.

Yup. They both need to be in the show; I think either could play any version of Marilyn.

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post #215 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

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Well the obvious solution is the before and after Marilyn story with McPhee as the before innocent Marilyn and Hilty as the after drugged blonde Marilyn. I just kept waiting for that to happen in the finale.

Yup. They both need to be in the show; I think either could play any version of Marilyn.

+1! I have seen enough not-quite-ready-for-the-bigtime performers in national touring companies to appreciate the remarkable talent of both McPhee and Hilty. Both girls are STARS!
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post #216 of 397 Old 05-15-2012, 11:21 PM
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For me, Hilty's singing is excellent and Katharine's is magic. Hilty doesn't have the freshness of McPhee, and unfair as that may be, I can't take my eyes off Katharine when she's on stage. And anyone who doesn't think she is a really good actress is wrong, wrong, wrong. She's amazingly natural.

I love this show, as corny as some of the plot twists are, and am thrilled that it's coming back. I care about those characters.
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post #217 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 05:12 AM
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I think the finale was as strong as the pilot. Fast moving, hitting on all cylinders and sharply focussed. The rest of the episodes wandered around at times never really giving the characters any depth. These two episodes didn't focus long enough on any of them to suffer such shortcomings.
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post #218 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think the finale was as strong as the pilot. Fast moving, hitting on all cylinders and sharply focussed. The rest of the episodes wandered around at times never really giving the characters any depth. These two episodes didn't focus long enough on any of them to suffer such shortcomings.

Like I said many week ago, there were about 2 to 2.5 hours worth of actual story to tell here.
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post #219 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 10:00 AM
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I enjoyed the finale a lot. Only two things could have made it better for me. One would have been to have Ivy do the performance. I like both actresses very much, and they are both fantastic, but as a matter of personal taste I prefer Ivy's style. I personally buy her more as Marilyn and I think she's more fun to watch.

The second thing that would have made it better is a much needed scene of a few of Nick's shady quasi illegal investor friends pushing Ellis in front of a bus, out a window, taking him for a long boat ride, etc. Partly because I hate the Ellis character, and partly because they never really did anything more with the reveal that Nick's investments aren't always on the up and up. They threw that out as a one liner from the rock musician investor, and never followed up. I think there is story potential there, with possible mob ties.
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post #220 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Like I said many week ago, there were about 2 to 2.5 hours worth of actual story to tell here.

I think there is/was plenty of story to tell. It's just how you decide to tell it. For me they often delved into a character just enough that they never went beyond their stereotype remaining more or less a caricature. As an example I sort of remember Karen going to a bridal shower... her relationship with anyone there appeared virtually nonexistent. I do agree the pilot and finale played like a movie although if you want to do a series you need to add depth that gets the viewer invested. At this point I think I'm more interested in the story arc than the characters which isn't a good thing.
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post #221 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 11:46 AM
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I love this show. I worked in a regional professional theater for a year after college, and a lot of the characters in this show feel very real to me based on that experience.

There are even more stories to tell about the making of a broadway show, and I hope season 2 focuses on those.

The last song was sensational... I may need to buy the soundtrack.
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post #222 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cwilson View Post

I can't take my eyes off Katharine when she's on stage. And anyone who doesn't think she is a really good actress is wrong, wrong, wrong. She's amazingly natural.

I'm a little embarrassed at how bedazzled (not a word I ever thought I would use about myself) I am with this show and mostly her.
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post #223 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 05:54 PM
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Even though the voices are processed, when they really bring it, especially McPhee, who gets the more dramatic numbers, I confess I tear up bcuz they sound soooooo sweet. The Bombshell finale was iconic...I felt they should have gone another 2 minutes for a standing O and an encore clap rather than fading out. The rest of the show are mumbles to me...a build up for the next number breakout. As far as Team/Ivy...she's a wonderfully accomplished Broadway talent, probably an equal or better singer/actor than McPhee, but on the small screen, McFee's natural beauty and resemblance to Marilyn (in costume) trumps her talent. Face it...she volumptuous, but stocky with kind of a frogface. She probably has to work very very hard to stay relatively slim. That said, McFee is slim and svelt, not exactly Marilyn, but her beauty and facial resemblance to MM trumps Hilty all day long (on the show). Now in real theater where you sit 25-200' away, Hilty might be my preference hands down. I'm just judging by the show where everything is tilted in McFee's favor.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #224 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

For me they often delved into a character just enough that they never went beyond their stereotype remaining more or less a caricature.

Exactly.
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post #225 of 397 Old 05-16-2012, 09:58 PM
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The last episode brought me to point where I couldn't help think they stole key elements of one of those old Rooney/Garland "Hey gang, why don't we make up a show in a barn" movies as the characters dreamed up tunes in the last gasp and suddenly everybody knew their parts and it all comes together gloriously. Schmaltzy it then and schmaltzy now. Loved it then and loved it now too. I'm a patsy.

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post #226 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 05:17 AM
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Okay, why didn't Eileen call the cops on Ellis after he admitted to "poisoning" Rebecca with the peanuts in her smoothie? I know things can get cutthroat, but attempted murder of the star is not allowable.

"Attempted murder" is a bit strong. His intention was just to make her sick and have to withdraw from the show - something everybody, her included, wanted her to do. There were too many people around, with medical help too close, for her to go into fatal anaphylaxic shock.

Eileen had too many fish to fry at that point to worry about Ellis. She's just glad he's gone. But he'll be back! More devious than ever, only next season he'll have some power to make things more interesting. He probably teams up with Jerry or something.

Every dramatic series needs a villain. This one has Ellis.
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post #227 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 06:04 AM
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Every dramatic series needs a villain. This one has Ellis.

You don't consider Ivy a villain? Her laundry list appears to be plenty long to me...
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post #228 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 06:39 AM
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More devious than ever, only next season he'll have some power to make things more interesting. He probably teams up with Jerry or something.

Jerry's the producer's husband, right? What does he have to do with anything?
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post #229 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 07:42 AM
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Jerry's the producer's husband, right? What does he have to do with anything?


He wants his wife to fail and come back to him and say he was right all along. Classic divorce fighting!
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post #230 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

You don't consider Ivy a villain? Her laundry list appears to be plenty long to me...

She's kind of villainous I guess, but it's unrealistic to think she wouldn't be a little bit pissed about having "paid her dues" in a tough business for a decade and looking and acting more like Marilyn (singing too, IMO) than this newcomer who's just waltzed in and taken a job that should rightly be hers. Especially after making the strategic decision to sleep with the director, fercryinoutloud! And look what happened to her on Preview Day where she was jerked around the lead roll like a rag doll -she's back in, she's back out, etc.

And now we're led to think she's contemplating suicide! (My guess is she'll try, but not succeed.) She's more of a sympathetic character than a villain to me at this point in the show.
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post #231 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by zalusky View Post

Well the obvious solution is the before and after Marilyn story with McPhee as the before innocent Marilyn and Hilty as the after drugged blonde Marilyn. I just kept waiting for that to happen in the finale.

I completely agree about the two phases of Marilyn's career and what each girl could bring to that but in the best of circumstances this would be be difficult to pull off. It's not like having alternate leads like Jersey Boys has or using the three kids in Billy Elliot. Those parameters were established from the get go in those shows. Here you would would dealing with two leading ladies of, in theory, equal stature who were both vying for the one role. Add to that the hyper-dramatic world that Smash is set in and it would be almost impossible. One thing that I would love to see is Ivy's true back story. Why is it that the beautiful girl with great acting chops and a spectacular voice has been relegated to the chorus for ten years? You would think that, at some point within that period, she would have at least scored a juicy supporting role in a major musical. What hasn't her Tom, her chief supporter and someone of considerable influence, been able to break her out of the chorus before Marilyn came along? Exporing this would answer a lot of questions about Ivy and who she has become.

BTW, I highly recommend the movie "My Week with Marilyn" for both Michelle Williams incredible performance and the light it sheds on who Marilyn really was at that stage of her career. The most revealing line in the film occurs when she is coming out of country getaway hotel and a crowd is waiting for her. She looks at her escort (Eddie Redmayne) and says wryly "should I become HER?" and then instantly snaps into the MM personna. It's great stuff.
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post #232 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Distorted View Post

The last episode brought me to point where I couldn't help think they stole key elements of one of those old Rooney/Garland "Hey gang, why don't we make up a show in a barn" movies as the characters dreamed up tunes in the last gasp and suddenly everybody knew their parts and it all comes together gloriously. Schmaltzy it then and schmaltzy now. Loved it then and loved it now too. I'm a patsy.

I guess you and I are both patsies, partner. I too was reminded of the old Judy Garland, Mickey Rooney "Hey, kids, let's put on a show!" movies. What the hell, though, I remember them fondly because they were usually pretty good.
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post #233 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 08:21 AM
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"Attempted murder" is a bit strong....

Maybe, but he should be charged at least with attempted manslaughter. You cannot precisely gauge how many peanuts will make someone with a peanut allergy sick or will kill them. And the intent was there to get her out of the picture, even if just temporarily. What would he do next if she had decided to come back?

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post #234 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 08:54 AM
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I completely agree about the two phases of Marilyn's career and what each girl could bring to that but in the best of circumstances this would be be difficult to pull off. ...

Actually it has been done before http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117201/
Was it a success? Probably not but does not mean they should stop trying.

It would allow for the younger Norma Jean and older Marilyn to sing together in various scenes though!
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post #235 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

"Attempted murder" is a bit strong. His intention was just to make her sick and have to withdraw from the show - something everybody, her included, wanted her to do. There were too many people around, with medical help too close, for her to go into fatal anaphylaxic shock.

Of course anyone that would be "so careful about what she eats" would also most likely have a quick rescue epi-pen within reach at all times.
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post #236 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

She's more of a sympathetic character than a villain to me at this point in the show.

Those are the best kind. Like when she had her underling send Karen a text message that rehearsal was over so she could step in. For me Ellis is one of the weakest characters in the show. I guess I'm not alone in thinking such...

1. Dump Ellis. Designed as a character you love to hate, Ellis became one you'd love to hit, a victim of terrible writing and, in Jaime Cepero, a young actor not equipped for the heavy lifting the character required.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/televis...hee/54963376/1

I find their suggestions dead on.

I wasn't that impressed with My Week with Marilyn. I enjoyed the cinematography and the period of the piece more than anything. I know Michelle Williams got nominated but I think it was more the courage to take on the part than anything else. Sure she was fine in the role but at times I had a hard time buying it. As far as insight I think one Vanity Fair article provides more.

For the Marilyn fan here's a couple of images from my lobby...
LL
LL
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post #237 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mreedelp View Post

Maybe, but he should be charged at least with attempted manslaughter. You cannot precisely gauge how many peanuts will make someone with a peanut allergy sick or will kill them. And the intent was there to get her out of the picture, even if just temporarily. What would he do next if she had decided to come back?

Well again, I'm sure he wasn't trying to kill her. He's ambitious and obnoxious, yes, but homicidally evil - I think not. As to why Eileen doesn't rush to press charges, I guess the best answer to that is that this is not a crime procedural and a detour anywhere near there is not something anyone wants to see from this show. And, of course, Ellis has to come back to make good on his threat and thus create more drama. He's sort of a cartoon, but then so is nearly everybody else. In other words, don't sweat the small stuff; enjoy the big picture.
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post #238 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 09:57 AM
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Did anyone notice the 50-star American Flag? For most of Marilyn's career, it would have been a 48-star flag.
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post #239 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

"Attempted murder" is a bit strong. His intention was just to make her sick and have to withdraw from the show - something everybody, her included, wanted her to do. There were too many people around, with medical help too close, for her to go into fatal anaphylaxic shock.

Nonetheless, if she *had* died? He'd be guilty of depraved indifference homicide. He knew of her condition and it was reasonably foreseeable that she could die because of it.

It was an incredibly cold, callous, reckless thing to do.
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post #240 of 397 Old 05-17-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

"Attempted murder" is a bit strong. His intention was just to make her sick and have to withdraw from the show - something everybody, her included, wanted her to do. There were too many people around, with medical help too close, for her to go into fatal anaphylaxic shock.

How's about this charge:

Reckless endangerment: A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. Reckless conduct is conduct that exhibits a culpable disregard of foreseeable consequences to others from the act or omission involved. The accused need not intentionally cause a resulting harm. The ultimate question is whether, under all the circumstances, the accused's conduct was of that heedless nature that made it actually or imminently dangerous to the rights or safety of others.

Seems to fit Ellis' actions.
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