2012 Daytona 500 on FOX HD - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 11:42 AM
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My take on Danica is that the violent Indy car wreck where she went nose first into the inside wall and that wreck being close to the same time as when she got married, ruined her as a driver.

After that she never seemed comfortable in a car that was even the slightest bit "free". And that just won't cut it at this level of racing. Lot's of pro drivers have made the point that it's relatively easy to drive these cars to 95% of their capability. It's squeezing the extra 3-4% out of the car that is hard and dangerous. And Danica seemed to lose the will to free up the car to get the most out of it after that wreck.

And it's a damn shame, because she was one heck of a good driver up to that point. I'm still hoping that the relative safety of the stock cars compared to the open-wheeled Indy cars will turn her around. But, from the comments she made about hanging back at the end of the race, it doesn't sound good.
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post #92 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 01:00 PM
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My take....

Examine the entire group of competitors she has to outperform to win at this level,..IMO, it's not happening.


Additionally, as evidenced by her recent pole position, she's got the equiptment,...as qualifying at Daytona is 100% about the car/setup, wind tunnel, etc. They brought a killer piece, a piece that she had nothing to do with ('cept $). The plate races are her best bet. Hell, I could qualify a cup car at a plate race,..if I could get in the damn thing Actually, I've been in a few, even at speed,...in the passenger seat. Entering turn one at IMS@170mph, is a phenomenal thrill,....entering at 200-205 as they currently do, is unfathomable.

Good times, for sure. I've had the pleasure on multiple occasions w/Petty ride along program. Wow, been awhile since I've thought about that. I will not do it again.


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post #93 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac The Knife View Post

And Danica seemed to lose the will to free up the car to get the most out of it after that wreck.

I tend to disagree. Back in her early Andretti Green days (when the rest of the team was winning) she was very cautious and never keep up with the rest of the team. She would qualify very strong but during the race itself (restarts are a great example) she would never really push the car. Of course Mario's style of wrecking in the first corner isn't all that smart but I have never found her to be about winning... such that it is the only thing that matters. For the most part she only gets mad about losing when she blames someone else.
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post #94 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 02:03 PM
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She basically ran mid pack in IRL for most of her career. Sprint Cup is much more competitive then IRL and there are more good teams.

Look at Hornish. He won the IRL title multiple times and Indy and he has trouble being competitive in Nascar. He finally got a win at the end of last year but he lost his full time Cup ride because he was not competitive. Franchitti is another great example. Multiple IRL champ he started DNQing in Cup.
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post #95 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 09:42 PM
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Penske admitted bringing Hornish from Indy cars straight to Cup was a mistake. NASCAR banned testing at any track the series races on, and this really hurts new drivers. I think if he would have just run Nationwide races for a year or two, he would have been far better prepared for Cup. The pressure to perform from sponsors is incredible, when you run at the back every week, or tear up racecars, the money soon dries up...good-bye Sam.

Danica has enough talent to do this, if her handlers bring her up when she is ready. One problem she won't have is money...Go-Daddy has her back no matter what. They don't care if she wins or not, she sells their brand.

Remember, Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson both ran their first year in the Nationwide series...and never won a race.
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post #96 of 107 Old 02-29-2012, 11:00 PM
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I do enjoy watching the super speedway races even though they do get boring. The true test of
their driving skills surface on the road courses. NASCAR has been and always will be an race of attrition. It is designed to be a tiered system of learning to drive thru the ranks a 3500 lb car fast. Yes, Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart did not win when they started but have won races since entering cup car racing.
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post #97 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieva View Post

She basically ran mid pack in IRL for most of her career. Sprint Cup is much more competitive then IRL and there are more good teams.

Look at Hornish. He won the IRL title multiple times and Indy and he has trouble being competitive in Nascar. He finally got a win at the end of last year but he lost his full time Cup ride because he was not competitive. Franchitti is another great example. Multiple IRL champ he started DNQing in Cup.

Are you implying open wheel racers are inferior to NASCAR drivers??

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post #98 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

IMO, this year's 500 was a huge flop, and I think most drivers are happy to be moving on.

I don't agree at all that the race was a flop - it was a return to what the fans wanted, with good reason. I thought the race itself was not at all boring until the last 40 laps when Kenseth dominated, but I didn't have a problem with that. Most of the drivers agree because they hated the lack of visibility and control with two-car tandems. It was a fiasco because of rain and the fire but both of those were out of NASCAR's hands, and on the flip side it drew huge ratings and now they'll take a serious look at a Monday night race.

I think Danica will end up much like Jr - some potential to be great with good equipment, most of it unrealized. She seems to be much more driven than he is but I don't think she has the talent to compete at the top, so at best she will do no better than what she did in Indy. IMO.

Agree on Simona, that is one girl to watch in IRL and maybe beyond.
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post #99 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Are you implying open wheel racers are inferior to NASCAR drivers??

How did you read that into what he said? There's no question that NASCAR is more competitive top to (almost) bottom - way more drivers have a chance to win there than in IRL. It has nothing to do with which class has better drivers.
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post #100 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I don't agree at all that the race was a flop - it was a return to what the fans wanted, with good reason. I thought the race itself was not at all boring until the last 40 laps when Kenseth dominated, but I didn't have a problem with that. Most of the drivers agree because they hated the lack of visibility and control with two-car tandems. It was a fiasco because of rain and the fire but both of those were out of NASCAR's hands, and on the flip side it drew huge ratings and now they'll take a serious look at a Monday night race...

And I don't agree at all that the fans OR the drivers want single file racing throughout the entire race. The tandem crap was just as, or even more stupid, so that's not a worthwhile comparison to begin with.

My gripe is with NASCAR and their interference again. Let the drivers drive, and leave the cars alone.

Please don't confront me with my failures, I'm aware of them. - Greg Allman
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post #101 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 05:05 AM
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It wasn't single file racing throughout the entire race, so I'm not sure what you were watching. It was a return to (mostly) pack racing, just like all the races before the tandems.
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post #102 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 07:06 AM
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It was single file racing because, like I said, the top groove wasn't working. You didn't see the first 9 - 10 cars running around on the bottom of the track during the race? Where the top groove cars were racing is where the pack was.

But anyway, again, the race to me was very boring. I've seen, and been to many races that were 10x more exciting than this one was, but that's just me.

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post #103 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 07:37 AM
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Single groove racing happens quite frequently after a track repaving. It's takes a few races for the second groove to 'come in'. Perhaps that is what happened in Daytona this year, since it was repaved after last season?
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post #104 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Are you implying open wheel racers are inferior to NASCAR drivers??

Indy car drivers are driving a more inappropriate race car package.

The INDY car package, which is a manufactured spec racer, presents all the wrong attributes to let the best drivers come out on top. They drive with so much downforce to encourage the pack racing, and "my grandmother could drive them". Not my words, but JPM's. This has all but removed the driver skill from the equation. JMHO.
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post #105 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gpflepsen View Post

Indy car drivers are driving a more inappropriate race car package.

The INDY car package, which is a manufactured spec racer, presents all the wrong attributes to let the best drivers come out on top. They drive with so much downforce to encourage the pack racing, and "my grandmother could drive them". Not my words, but JPM's. This has all but removed the driver skill from the equation. JMHO.



Wow, I disagree strongly.

Examine the difference between Indy500 qualifying, and Nascar qualifying at Daytona; ... whereby Castro-Neves trims his car out so close to the razor's edge, that laying down a 4 lap pole attempt, trimming the car on every straightaway w/on-board controls, is unquestionably a daredevil feat.

Then, compare Danica showing up for her pole run in last Saturday's race,.... Her crew chief's instructions; "Mash it, don't lift,...stay high and build your revs up good prior to taking the green, then from that point keep it tight on the bottom but let it come off the bottom as you transition to the flats. Have fun, cause this thing is slick as can be and handles real good down the straightaway."

Danica; "handles real good down the straightaway? huh?"

Crew Chief; bringing the empty pop bottle up to his mouth to spit the dip juice into the bottle,...so he can talk, "it's the the motor,...it's the best one we've got"

Danica; "motor?, ... the engine?"




Now, back to your downforce point, you're exactly right, they have too much downforce. combining that with the high banked tracks is scary stuff. They went with it thru the 90's until today, merely for the spectacle, as they needed the appeal it brought. You reap what you sow, sadly.

If the cars were easy to drive, clearly they'd have a bigger mix of winners. I love the road courses, in open wheel and Cup. They're quite the equalizer, as is rain (Senna). I really dig the road course Cup stuff, those are the only races that I watch every second of every lap. My preference. The Nationwide road course races the last few years have been the most exciting races in any form, anywhere in the world, IMO. I'd love to see a Cup road course race at Indy. Superb facility,..wow that'd be fun.

My fondest memories of the 60's-70's, is USAC stock cars on dirt ovals, and on road courses. Parnelli Jones, Dan Gurney, Al Unser, A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, Bobby Unser in a Superbird! Killer, killer stuff. They'd run dirt, road course, big ovals,...man my best racing memories. Open face helmets, goggles and bandannas around their face.

Damn, goosebumps as I type.


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post #106 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluto17 View Post

Single groove racing happens quite frequently after a track repaving. It's takes a few races for the second groove to 'come in'. Perhaps that is what happened in Daytona this year, since it was repaved after last season?

It seemed to me that the upper groove was OK (not great, but OK) at the start of the race. But after the fire, it seemed like a bunch of drivers didn't want to go up there and experiment with where the worst of the fire was located, especially since the fire was in about the worst place possible at the entrance to turn three. So only the guys in the middle of the pack that were desperate to make a move went up there. So it looked like the upper groove wasn't working at all at the end.
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post #107 of 107 Old 03-01-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

How did you read that into what he said? There's no question that NASCAR is more competitive top to (almost) bottom - way more drivers have a chance to win there than in IRL. It has nothing to do with which class has better drivers.

No not at all. I think Franchitti and Hornish are great drivers. My point was that there is a huge learning curve to go from driving open wheel cars your entire life to a big stock car. Even for the best of the best.


If I took Carl Edwards or Kyle Busch and put them in IRL they would need to learn a lot at the beginning as well.


The only guys that have made the transition at a high level is Stewart. Montoya's been good on the road courses but on ovals he's fairly average.
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