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post #1801 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 12:08 PM
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My money is definitely on Lance, no way this show would kill off Felicity, they might push her and Oliver apart with the death of Lance though.
Sure they would. Remember that in the comics, it's Black Canary that Green Arrow ends up with. The writers could have plans to go that direction. Felicity dies, eventually pushing Laurel and Oliver back together.

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post #1802 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 01:07 PM
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Sure they would. Remember that in the comics, it's Black Canary that Green Arrow ends up with. The writers could have plans to go that direction. Felicity dies, eventually pushing Laurel and Oliver back together.
The fans like Felicity too much, I'm not saying that Oliver wont end up with Black Canary, but I doubt it will be because Felicity dies.

The producers are still in the business of creating a show that fans want to watch, I just cant' see them killing off a favorite character.

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post #1803 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vertigo235 View Post
The fans like Felicity too much, I'm not saying that Oliver wont end up with Black Canary, but I doubt it will be because Felicity dies.

The producers are still in the business of creating a show that fans want to watch, I just cant' see them killing off a favorite character.
Tell that to the Stark family.

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post #1804 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by vertigo235 View Post
The fans like Felicity too much, I'm not saying that Oliver wont end up with Black Canary, but I doubt it will be because Felicity dies.

The producers are still in the business of creating a show that fans want to watch, I just cant' see them killing off a favorite character.
The last thing we see before going to the cemetery scene was Oliver and Felicity making out, with a shift in focus to the wedding ring which Oliver had hidden. Now lets remember how much they went back and forth over the seasons on not getting together in the first place because Oliver thought he couldn't have a love interest because whomever it was could be killed.

Barry shows up at the cemetery, and offers support by mournfully saying he's sorry he didn't make the funeral. Doubtful he would have apologized like that if it had been Lance.

Finally, Oliver says it's not his fault for bringing the darkness, but his responsibility to kill (we assume) the person's killer. Doubtful Oliver would be out to kill if it has been Lance. We already know that Lance has taken the wrong side of his own accord.

So if doesn't end up being Felicity, the last episode sure pointed us in that direction. Maybe the setup was a red herrring to make Felicity fans worry this season. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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post #1805 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Barry shows up at the cemetery, and offers support by mournfully saying he's sorry he didn't make the funeral. Doubtful he would have apologized like that if it had been Lance.

...

So if doesn't end up being Felicity, the last episode sure pointed us in that direction. Maybe the setup was a red herrring to make Felicity fans worry this season. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Good analysis.

The only other character that would warrant such a response is Speedy. Barry could be apologizing about missing the funeral, not so much because he had a personal relationship with the deceased, as he does with Felicity, but because he would want to support Oliver in this dark time.
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post #1806 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 02:27 PM
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The last thing we see before going to the cemetery scene was Oliver and Felicity making out, with a shift in focus to the wedding ring which Oliver had hidden. Now lets remember how much they went back and forth over the seasons on not getting together in the first place because Oliver thought he couldn't have a love interest because whomever it was could be killed.

Barry shows up at the cemetery, and offers support by mournfully saying he's sorry he didn't make the funeral. Doubtful he would have apologized like that if it had been Lance.

Finally, Oliver says it's not his fault for bringing the darkness, but his responsibility to kill (we assume) the person's killer. Doubtful Oliver would be out to kill if it has been Lance. We already know that Lance has taken the wrong side of his own accord.

So if doesn't end up being Felicity, the last episode sure pointed us in that direction. Maybe the setup was a red herrring to make Felicity fans worry this season. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I think that was all misdirection, but we will see.

I'll be OK with it, I'll just be surprised.

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post #1807 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 02:27 PM
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Tell that to the Stark family.
But that's not TV; it's HBO.
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post #1808 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 03:39 PM
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Good analysis.

The only other character that would warrant such a response is Speedy. Barry could be apologizing about missing the funeral, not so much because he had a personal relationship with the deceased, as he does with Felicity, but because he would want to support Oliver in this dark time.
You are right about Barry. He would apologize in that way if it were Thea. I definitely agree it could be her. If Lance dies, so what. Not that much anguish for Oliver to complicate his character. His father died--with Oliver giving him mercy. His mother died in his arms. He had to make a sophie's choice between two women while on the island. If the writers want to continue that sort of grittiness to the series, then seems it has to be Felicity or Thea.

daryl zero got it half right when he wrote in this thread "Oliver doesn't do "happy" very well." If we know anything, we also know that Oliver doesn't get to be happy either. Oliver's "torture" began on the island, but it has never ended. It's what makes this a good series instead of just super heroes fighting bad guys.

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post #1809 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 04:31 PM
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I don't see them killing Felicity for multiple reasons...

1. Fans like her.
2. She does stuff for the team that nobody else is capable of doing.
3. Real-life actress hasn't shown signs of wanting to do other things.

This could be a misdirection OR if not, my guess is also on Lance... they are setting him up for a self-sacrifice to save someone by giving his life AND on his deathbed giving Ollie approval for what he's doing. That would be what would set Oliver off in a plausible way.

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post #1810 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 04:56 PM
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So if doesn't end up being Felicity, the last episode sure pointed us in that direction. Maybe the setup was a red herrring to make Felicity fans worry this season.
That was my impression. Every sign pointed to Felicity, but she's such an important character that I don't see how they could kill her from a logistical standpoint. Her skills are integral to the team, and they'd never be able to get anything done without her. From the way people tell her to hack into this and that, one would think that hacking is just as easy as performing a web search. If she dies, everyone will have to just sit around the lair listening to police scanners all day. I don't buy it.

I could see Thea dying, as she's hardly integral, but Lance would be the most obvious choice, especially since he's "evil" now. I guess it depends upon when the death takes place. If it's a midseason finale death, then it'll be Lance, so we can see the modest fallout during the second half of the season. If it's a season finale death, it'll be Thea, so we can see the major fallout during the next season.
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post #1811 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 05:07 PM
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Could be Diggle.
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post #1812 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 05:45 PM
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Could be Diggle.
Yes, I think it's him. Never in the world would they take our super hot Willa Holland away!!!!

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post #1813 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 05:48 PM
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I'm very disappointed the Red Arrow costume doesn't reveal any bully button.
Me too! Thea needs to wear some of that revealing stuff from last season.

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post #1814 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 05:57 PM
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And here is all three of them:

Willa Holland wins by a mile. No competition.

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post #1815 of 2181 Old 10-09-2015, 07:56 PM
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Well if it is Felicity we do have The Flash that can go back in time and undo whatever deed was done to her. Perhaps one reason Barry was there.
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post #1816 of 2181 Old 10-10-2015, 05:31 AM
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Well if it is Felicity we do have The Flash that can go back in time and undo whatever deed was done to her. Perhaps one reason Barry was there.
Hmmmm, I smell another crossover episode(s) coming.
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post #1817 of 2181 Old 10-10-2015, 11:55 AM
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Well if it is Felicity we do have The Flash that can go back in time and undo whatever deed was done to her. Perhaps one reason Barry was there.
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Hmmmm, I smell another crossover episode(s) coming.
The more I think about it the more it seems likely that no one is dead--at least not permanently. Between time travel, Lazarus pits, and the faked deaths we've seen in this universe, I wouldn't be surprised if its an empty grave.

Alternatively they could also bring back someone like Shadoe or Oliver's mom, only to kill her off again.
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post #1818 of 2181 Old 10-10-2015, 11:19 PM
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Well if it is Felicity we do have The Flash that can go back in time and undo whatever deed was done to her.
He only travelled through time out of desperately trying to run fast enough to avert a tsunami that would have wiped out the entire city and while elated from having told Iris his secret and having her confess her love for him in a welp-we're-about-to-die-so-why-not-be-honest moment. I highly doubt he can run fast enough to travel through time whenever he feels like it, as those were extraordinary circumstances, even for this show.
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post #1819 of 2181 Old 10-11-2015, 07:31 AM
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No, he actually made the decision to go back and save his mother. while back there her ran into a future version of himself, also back in time, telling him not to change the events. So we know of at least 3 incidents where he traveled through time.
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post #1820 of 2181 Old 10-11-2015, 07:58 AM
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No, he actually made the decision to go back and save his mother. while back there her ran into a future version of himself, also back in time, telling him not to change the events. So we know of at least 3 incidents where he traveled through time.
And each incident has taught him that time travel is a dicey solution to a problem.

Doubt he'll be going to save Felicity if she dies.

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post #1821 of 2181 Old 10-11-2015, 03:34 PM
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The opener ticked all the Arrow boxes - both good and bad - and I thought it was pretty good. So we had some good stunts like the truck losing it's wheels, melodramatic hero speeches, couple of amusing moments, new baddie (who already has more presence than R'as thanks to Mcdonough), cool new toys, lots of fighting, some good plot twists, flashbacks, crossover and nice cliffhanger.

On the bad side we had Willa Holland not up to stunt fight standards yet (and no gratuitous bellybutton shot!), body armor that is useless against hero bullets (but at least it works on cop bullets this time), Lance still being grumpy Lance and ...

Diggle's helmet. I was wrong, it doesn't look better in motion. It's just too small. Why they designed it so the cheek pieces don't come down to cover the sides of the jaw is pretty dumb. It serves no real purpose being that short on the sides. It looks like it was designed to be worn with body armor with high neck protection so maybe there is an upgrade from that jacket coming.

All signs point to Felicity in the grave but I'm thinking it may be Diggle's wife. She's just familiar enough to be a loss but not integral enough to matter that much. I don't know which is worse, because the fan reaction to the former will be pretty bad but if it's the latter the Diggle/Oliver relationship becomes even more hostile.

Of course there is always a Lazarus Pit around the corner and we know Constantine is making an appearance. That could also be to deal with Darhk and Thea too but you never know who stays dead from now on.

In response to why the security in the meeting was so bad. Darhk is a sorcerer. so security doesn't pose much of an issue when he can seemingly become invisible or teleport.


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post #1822 of 2181 Old 10-12-2015, 07:04 AM
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I like the mis-direction and empty grave suggestions. I think that grave belongs to Oliver. Detective Lance will be bumped off in mid-season. Outside of Team Green Arrow, Amanda Waller, and Katana, few know of Oliver's night job (I haven't forgotten Malcolm or Deathstroke). Green Arrow can operate hopefully without "bringing the darkness" to his friends.
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post #1823 of 2181 Old 10-12-2015, 07:15 AM
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I like the mis-direction and empty grave suggestions. I think that grave belongs to Oliver.
Ollie's pretended to be dead so often now I don't think he would care. Not enough to make him produce a single tear rolling down his face anyway.


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post #1824 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 12:27 PM
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One problem you have with a show that brings back the dead... Oliver took his own trip, then Thea, soon Sara... is that you have to start asking... Why can't they bring others back?

Why hasn't ANYONE on the show, especially Oliver and Thea, considered bringing back their mother? Dad's body is likely lost at sea... but they buried mom not too much longer back than Sara... so if Sara can be brought back eventually, then why not mom?

And whomever dies next... why can't that person be brought back too? It creates a story problem where on the one hand it's hard to use a character death to stir the plot because people will always suspect the death isn't final BUT it also creates a scenario for the characters where they have to either rationalize why some people are "more worthy" to bring back than others OR you have to have them go stupid and never bring it up.

Ex... Diggle's wife... IF something happens and his wife gets killed... wouldn't he go nuts if the gang didn't want to put his wife in the Lazurus pit to bring her back? Same for Detective Lance... especially once they bring Sara back, can you imagine Sara and/or Laurel not demanding their father be brought back?

Heck... with Malcolm now running things... you'd think he would be first in line championing bringing back his not-so-long-ago deceased son too! Maybe it has been too long to bring back his wife... but maybe not his son?

It just sets up some tricky things to navigate.
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post #1825 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 01:20 PM
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One problem you have with a show that brings back the dead... Oliver took his own trip, then Thea, soon Sara... is that you have to start asking... Why can't they bring others back?

Why hasn't ANYONE on the show, especially Oliver and Thea, considered bringing back their mother? Dad's body is likely lost at sea... but they buried mom not too much longer back than Sara... so if Sara can be brought back eventually, then why not mom?
Ollie got plot saved by magic tea and R'as' bad sword skills, so only Thea so far has been resurrected in the Pit and the season is supposed to deal with the crazy side effects of being revived. Ollie was warned about that last year. Getting to the Pit involves Malcolm co-operating too so it's not something they can just do on a whim but I would think he would make an exception for Moira. She should be a box of bones by now so I'm curious how they resurrect Sara and if they use some other sorcery. Sara has been dead and rotting for a long time and that seems to be pushing the power of the Lazarus Pit.
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post #1826 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 01:41 PM
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My guess is that Sara's body got exhumed right away without anybody knowing about it, so Oliver et al. have been mourning over an empty grave all this time. I doubt the pit works on a pile of bones.
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post #1827 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 06:56 PM
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Ollie got plot saved by magic tea and R'as' bad sword skills, so only Thea so far has been resurrected in the Pit and the season is supposed to deal with the crazy side effects of being revived. Ollie was warned about that last year. Getting to the Pit involves Malcolm co-operating too so it's not something they can just do on a whim but I would think he would make an exception for Moira. She should be a box of bones by now so I'm curious how they resurrect Sara and if they use some other sorcery. Sara has been dead and rotting for a long time and that seems to be pushing the power of the Lazarus Pit.
With the lazarus pit and some mirakuru, they could have super zombies running around failing the city!
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post #1828 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 07:07 PM
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Well that answers the Sara question! That was a great closing scene and "Queen for Mayor" idea was okay too. Pity we don't get to see Jeri hang around for a few more episodes. It felt like she was phoning it in this episode anyway. Still looks good though!

Apart from some pretty good stunt work and fight editing this episode nothing really amazing happened. I haven't followed the Anarky character but I don't remember him being a psychotic murderer who tortures people for fun. That seemed to miss the point of the character completely. Ollie's recruitment interview into the mercenary group was about as convincing a scene as Henry on The Flash premiere. Just not convincing in any way.

In unintentional comedy, five-foot Thea trying to intimidate someone face-to-face is just funny. In her costume and little red hood she just looks like a cute Red Riding Hood.

Also very distracting was the new guy at Palmer. I don't know if it was intentional or not but every single time he was on screen all I could think about was Moss from The IT Crowd and Felicity was Jen. This is what they will be presenting at the next shareholder meeting!

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post #1829 of 2181 Old 10-14-2015, 11:30 PM
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Won't say much about Sara for now... but that was a surprise in a couple of ways. While the Queen-for-mayor seems like an obvious thing from the top, I like the idea even though it was predictable. I'd actually like it more if at some point they just come clean and have Oliver operate out in the open the way he ultimately did in the comics.

The Sara subplot is unintentionally interesting... Last week we had everyone SO desperate for help that they begged Oliver to come back and help... so now Laurel and Thea can just take off on a "spa" trip? That seems sudden, if they care about the city and all... like the motto keeps being.

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post #1830 of 2181 Old 10-15-2015, 10:04 AM
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Hey, that IT guy Holt at Palmer? Mr. Terrific!!!!??? But they would not......could not.....would they?
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