'Revolution' on NBC - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 07:34 PM
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Yay... I "called" the nanite bone-healing smile.gif

Let's see if I can continue to use my predictive powers for good...

Yeah baby!  It's Halloween!
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post #1262 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

What you said was:

"for SciFi to be good SciFi, it has to exist plausably within it's own environment."

H.G. Wells wrote "The Time Machine" in 1895. Time travel is physically impossible. The technology required to even come close to approaching the areas of physics necessary to contemplate such a device was implausible. Ergo, "The Time Machine" is a bad science-fiction novel.

Your same rules of implausibility apply to multiple works of acknowledged greats of science-fiction.
What are you talking about?

"Within its own environment". What don't you understand? The author or the era it was written are irrelevent. It's the environment of the story that matters.

"The Time Machine" makes sense within its own environment. The machine itself looks like it was made in the late 1800's using late 1800's era parts. It has glowing tube lights and a spinning wheel that apparently make it work, much like we have the nuclear powered flux capacitor that has to go 88MPH to work in the DeLorean in "Back to the Future". Further, we see indications of future trends (via the shop window that shows dresses becoming more revealing until they become mini-skirts) until we get to a decimated world that is the deep future we still have yet to get to - and could still happen, in theory. It's a story of a Garage-Tech inventor who happens to discover how to travel in time and he sees a world in the future that is also our future. It doesn't show anything happening in our era that hasn't happened. While science says that time travel is impossible, we can suppose that somehow someone figures it out and does so in secret to avoid major time-related issues. Do you know what all your neighbors are up to?

You say time travel is impossible. They used to say heavier than air travel was impossible. Then is was faster than sound travel. Science only currently calls time travel impossible because we don't how to make it work. Nanites in 2012 that can do what they do in Revolution are impossible. We know that.

Star Trek makes sense in its own environment because it takes place a few hundred years in the future. They use all kinds of technical terms and throw in enough credibility to make it seem possible.

That's what I mean when it "makes sense in its own environment".

Revolution doesn't do that. We don't have nanites in 2013 that could do what these do - much less in 2012. If we did, we wouldn't bother with drone attacks and the CIA would be out of business. The medical industry would be radically different than it is.

But that's not the real issue here, either: the issue is that good scifi really is commentary on our past and present. Philip K. Dick didn't write about robots. He wrote about humanity, racism and oppression (via governments and corporations) through the eyes of robots, ordinary men and the occasional talking pig. Star Trek did the same thing. So did Firefly and Battlestar Galactica.

Good SciFi doesn't use science to create the story - it uses science to hide the lessons so we don't know we're learning.
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The rest of the world has not been revealed.
So you really think that the US could exist without power with even one other country having it? That's what you're going with?

If Cuba had power and we didn't, they'd invade us faster than a frog nabbing a fly off a lilly pad. Any country we don't get along with that had power would crush us. Further, early on, there was evidence that England didn't have power, either.

If they show the rest of the world all fine and it's just the US, that will be hogwash. Some of the furthest nations away that could potentially be unaffected by the blackout are the very ones that would conquer us the first second they got the upper hand. China would eat our lunch, for one.
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post #1263 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

So you really think that the US could exist without power with even one other country having it? That's what you're going with?

If Cuba had power and we didn't, they'd invade us faster than a frog nabbing a fly off a lilly pad. Any country we don't get along with that had power would crush us. Further, early on, there was evidence that England didn't have power, either.

If they show the rest of the world all fine and it's just the US, that will be hogwash. Some of the furthest nations away that could potentially be unaffected by the blackout are the very ones that would conquer us the first second they got the upper hand. China would eat our lunch, for one.
Frankly, if Cuba, China, or anyone else for that matter, had power, why would they care about powerless USA? A continent away and devoid of power, the USA is no threat. The only reason Monroe wants to take over the continental US is that he's an egomaniac. But even at that, he's not shown that he cares what's going on in Europe or Asia.

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post #1264 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Frankly, if Cuba, China, or anyone else for that matter, had power, why would they care about powerless USA? A continent away and devoid of power, the USA is no threat. The only reason Monroe wants to take over the continental US is that he's an egomaniac. But even at that, he's not shown that he cares what's going on in Europe or Asia.
Have you been to Cuba lately? No? You know why? Because it's run by an egomaniac who holds his people down under his thumb. Why do you think people are so hot to risk drowning coming here?

Cuba and China would want the land and resources and all the stuff that doesn't work here, but would work in their own countries - including nukes and other dangerous stuff. They would invade us just to keep us from coming back from the dark ages - or to ensure we are at the mercy of what they are willing to provide us.
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post #1265 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 09:49 PM
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If the setting really bothers you that much, just pretend that the blackout happened in 2112.
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post #1266 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

That's what I mean when it "makes sense in its own environment".

Revolution doesn't do that. We don't have nanites in 2013 that could do what these do - much less in 2012. If we did, we wouldn't bother with drone attacks and the CIA would be out of business. The medical industry would be radically different than it is.

Stop trying to defend your argument by trying to ignore basic facts and creating a scenario in which just because someone can create a brass handle and vacuum tube it makes the existence of a time machine in 1895 completely plausible because it looks like it exists "within it's own environment." Utter drivel.

You can try and spin your argument as much as you like but the facts are these. MEMS exist that absorb energy. Research has already been undertaken with nanodevices that attack cells. So if reality doesn't fit your definition of "existing within it's own environment" then nothing will. Do they exist today as they do on Revolution. No. And guess what? Neither do the majority of devices shown in science-fiction regardless of it's origin. And that includes Fringe, which I noticed you haven't acknowledged that you were completely wrong about.

But hey, maybe they can ask Jony Ive to design the nanomachines with a nice black bezel (when they show them with a microscope at some point) and then they'll be as valid as throwing together some brass parts and an armchair to confirm the plausiblity of a device. Because apparently actual scientific research doesn't look as flashy to pass as evidence. rolleyes.gif


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post #1267 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 11:23 PM
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Yes, when it's said that science fiction must make sense within its own environment, it means that the show needs to establish and obey rules in order to be deemed plausible. It does not mean that the show's rules have to correspond with real-world limitations, even if the show is set in the present, since the show is depicting a fictional present.

The reason that shows like Star Trek worked was not solely because they were set in the future: they worked because they established a set of technologies that had certain functions and limitations, and then episodes used those technologies to facilitate the storytelling within their preestablished boundaries. The problem with Revolution is not that it uses technology that doesn't exist: it's that rather than using technology as a means to tell a story, the mystery surrounding the technology essentially is the story. By not defining boundaries at the beginning of the show, the writers are free to essentially make things up as they go along, so the technology in Revolution doesn't need to obey any boundaries and becomes a deus ex machina get-out-of-jail-free card for any situation that befalls the characters.

This week the nanites can magically heal wounds, and next week they could be making people invisible or capable of flying. The writers feel they can justify it, because they'll just say it's a new nanite ability that hasn't been "revealed" yet, but the viewers will just be left feeling cheated. We accepted Star Trek's dermal regenerator because it had a predefined set of plausible abilities for a specific device and didn't randomly gain new ones when the writers felt like it. We didn't accept it solely because Star Trek was set in the future.
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post #1268 of 1984 Old 05-14-2013, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

By not defining boundaries at the beginning of the show, the writers are free to essentially make things up as they go along, so the technology in Revolution doesn't need to obey any boundaries and becomes a deus ex machina get-out-of-jail-free card for any situation that befalls the characters.

As long as they don't break their own rules until they set out those limitations they can keep reprogramming the nanites to do whatever is needed. That's the only thing they have established so far. The nanites can be reprogrammed to do multiple tasks.

It's nowhere near as bad as a show like Doctor Who, in which the sonic screwdriver is used to fix the plot of almost every episode and the TARDIS is developing a new ability every other week now.

And if they can make people invisible, I'm all for it! It makes more sense than people developing random genetic superpowers in other shows, if you can equip tech switches that change your abilities. It worked pretty well in Jake 2.0.


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post #1269 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Yes, when it's said that science fiction must make sense within its own environment, it means that the show needs to establish and obey rules in order to be deemed plausible. It does not mean that the show's rules have to correspond with real-world limitations, even if the show is set in the present, since the show is depicting a fictional present.

The reason that shows like Star Trek worked was not solely because they were set in the future: they worked because they established a set of technologies that had certain functions and limitations, and then episodes used those technologies to facilitate the storytelling within their preestablished boundaries. The problem with Revolution is not that it uses technology that doesn't exist: it's that rather than using technology as a means to tell a story, the mystery surrounding the technology essentially is the story. By not defining boundaries at the beginning of the show, the writers are free to essentially make things up as they go along, so the technology in Revolution doesn't need to obey any boundaries and becomes a deus ex machina get-out-of-jail-free card for any situation that befalls the characters.

This week the nanites can magically heal wounds, and next week they could be making people invisible or capable of flying. The writers feel they can justify it, because they'll just say it's a new nanite ability that hasn't been "revealed" yet, but the viewers will just be left feeling cheated. We accepted Star Trek's dermal regenerator because it had a predefined set of plausible abilities for a specific device and didn't randomly gain new ones when the writers felt like it. We didn't accept it solely because Star Trek was set in the future.

There was a Star Trek episode where Giordi and Ro Laren were phase shifted. They could see and hear everyone else but no one could see or hear them. People and things would pass through them and they could pass through walls etc. The strange thing is that they did not pass through the floor. So even Trek had its implausible moments. Still love that show and that episode none the less.
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post #1270 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:03 PM
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IMHO, David Lyons ("Bass" Monroe) is the best actor in the series. He perfectly captures that "just on the verge of madness" look and demeanor. And his meltdowns (when Emma was killed) are perfect.

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post #1271 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:09 PM
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IMHO, David Lyons ("Bass" Monroe) is the best actor in the series. He perfectly captures that "just on the verge of madness" look and demeanor. And his meltdowns (when Emma was killed) are perfect.
Allow me to present an alternative: Giancarlo Esposito is the best actor in the series. He is a much more successful "bad guy" as Tom Neville. In one scene he can be quite evil and manipulative, and in the other show great passion for the things that he believes or cares about. On top of that, his character is probably the best written in the series, as well, being fully dynamic as opposed to the quite static character attributes of the rest of the cast.

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post #1272 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Allow me to present an alternative: Giancarlo Esposito is the best actor in the series. He is a much more successful "bad guy". On top of that, his character is probably the best written in the series, as well, being fully dynamic as opposed to the quite static character attributes of the rest of the cast.

I'd have to agree .. and Esposito had plenty of bad guy practice on Breaking Bad ..

Lyons does a good job with the paranoid megalomaniac bit, but it is fairly one dimensional ..

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post #1273 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:21 PM
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As long as they don't break their own rules until they set out those limitations they can keep reprogramming the nanites to do whatever is needed. That's the only thing they have established so far. The nanites can be reprogrammed to do multiple tasks.

It's nowhere near as bad as a show like Doctor Who, in which the sonic screwdriver is used to fix the plot of almost every episode and the TARDIS is developing a new ability every other week now.

And if they can make people invisible, I'm all for it! It makes more sense than people developing random genetic superpowers in other shows, if you can equip tech switches that change your abilities. It worked pretty well in Jake 2.0.
There are some big differences between Dr Who and Revolution though.
1) Dr. Who has great writers, Revolution does not.
2) Dr. Who has great actors, Revolution does not (although it does have a couple of good actors).
3) Dr. Who is meant to be humorous, Revolution is not (but is in a bad way).
4) Thanks to the above, Dr. Who is very entertaining, Revolution is not.
5) Dr. Who will be around long after Revolution is forgotten.
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post #1274 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:32 PM
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I'd have to agree .. and Esposito had plenty of bad guy practice on Breaking Bad ..

Tom Neville is no Gus Fring.
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post #1275 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:35 PM
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There was a Star Trek episode where Giordi and Ro Laren were phase shifted. They could see and hear everyone else but no one could see or hear them. People and things would pass through them and they could pass through walls etc. The strange thing is that they did not pass through the floor. So even Trek had its implausible moments. Still love that show and that episode none the less.

There's an episode of Stargate that addresses the same question. Unfortunately, the eggheads at Stargate Command don't know why people don't fall through the floor, either. biggrin.gif If you really want to nitpick TNG, though, Geordi's visor became a far more prominent magic bullet for solving problems at the last minute.
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post #1276 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

IMHO, David Lyons ("Bass" Monroe) is the best actor in the series. He perfectly captures that "just on the verge of madness" look and demeanor. And his meltdowns (when Emma was killed) are perfect.
Allow me to present an alternative: Giancarlo Esposito is the best actor in the series. He is a much more successful "bad guy" as Tom Neville. In one scene he can be quite evil and manipulative, and in the other show great passion for the things that he believes or cares about. On top of that, his character is probably the best written in the series, as well, being fully dynamic as opposed to the quite static character attributes of the rest of the cast.
Yes, I cannot argue. Both of them are great. Billy Burke, OTOH, is ..... well ..... rolleyes.gif

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post #1277 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:44 PM
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Tom Neville is no Gus Fring.

Well, no .. I was not implying that he was .. Tom is a self serving, mercenary for hire that will go where ever the wind blows and do whatever is necessary to save his own skin .. Gus was a self serving narcotics Overlord that would use whatever means necessary to further his own Empire and was ruthless in that pursuit .. all the while merrily dishing out chicken .. wink.gif

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post #1278 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 01:49 PM
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As long as they don't break their own rules until they set out those limitations they can keep reprogramming the nanites to do whatever is needed. That's the only thing they have established so far. The nanites can be reprogrammed to do multiple tasks.
Except dear old Mom established early on that all they do is eat power and multiply. Then we're told by her that they can be programmed to heal (while talking to the same person). Next, we'll find out they give superpowers and make a fine apple pie out of sawdust. That's not exactly following the rules. If I were Aaron, I'd be very curious about what else she wasn't revealing about what these things do.

Don't even get me started on all the stuff they manage to have without any means to mass produce it, like the many large caliber bullets and jet fuel. Further, it blows my mind that someone as bent on taking over the country as Monroe didn't even try to build something like a steam tank or use gliders as bombers.

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There was a Star Trek episode where Giordi and Ro Laren were phase shifted. They could see and hear everyone else but no one could see or hear them. People and things would pass through them and they could pass through walls etc. The strange thing is that they did not pass through the floor. So even Trek had its implausible moments. Still love that show and that episode none the less.
The floors on star ships have gravity plating built into them. That would be the likely reason they could pass through walls, but not sink through the floors. It would be like having copper mesh to block radio signals on one wall, but not another. It's just a little layer of something different to prevent stuff from passing through.

Granted, they could have used some throwaway line to explain it that way, but there is a real difference between the walls and floors that could net the results we saw.
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post #1279 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 03:57 PM
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Tom Neville is no Gus Fring.
My point was that it doesn't matter what role Esposito is playing; he is the best actor on the show. They could re-cast Esposito as Charlie, and he would do a better job. It's the actor's job to bring the character to life, it's the writer's job to put that character in great situations. Shoot, Esposito could be re-cast as a cactus and would still probably be the best actor on this show.

Emmy Awards for acting go to the actors, not the writers.

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post #1280 of 1984 Old 05-15-2013, 06:54 PM
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My point was that it doesn't matter what role Esposito is playing; he is the best actor on the show. They could re-cast Esposito as Charlie, and he would do a better job. It's the actor's job to bring the character to life, it's the writer's job to put that character in great situations. Shoot, Esposito could be re-cast as a cactus and would still probably be the best actor on this show.

Emmy Awards for acting go to the actors, not the writers.
I'm betting he was awesome as a tree in his 3rd grade school play.... wink.gif
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post #1281 of 1984 Old 05-18-2013, 09:55 AM
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I hate to say it but you are probably correct. Danny had a little capsule beneath his skin. It was probably planted at the exact location that the nanites needed to focus upon to keep him alive. The capsule is a nanite attracter/concentrator/re-programmer. It will soon be placed next to the break in Elizabeth's bone.
Like that wasn't easy to predict! Although the re-programming part was fun to get right.
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post #1282 of 1984 Old 05-19-2013, 10:39 AM
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Like that wasn't easy to predict! Although the re-programming part was fun to get right.

You're the man. wink.gif

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post #1283 of 1984 Old 05-19-2013, 10:42 AM
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Like that wasn't easy to predict! Although the re-programming part was fun to get right.

I was hoping you'd be wrong. But I was wrong about your wrongness.
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post #1284 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 08:29 AM
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The show aired 12 hours ago and no comments. I thought the show was moving along at a good pace until they stopped for copter fuel and people started getting killed.
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post #1285 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 08:57 AM
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10pm is past my bedtime. Plus, this show isn't good enough anymore to bother watching live.

I'll be honest, I usually avoid spoilers and don't come into threads for shows I watch until I'm all caught up, but I only opened this thread this morning to see if anyone thought last night's episode was any good.

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post #1286 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 10:46 AM
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Nah, same old "revolution cliches", 15 y/o fuel being extracted from other choppers, they also expect all the Georgian shoppers and military vehicles to start as soon as power is restored with 15y/o batteries, etc..

At least they surprised some on who the killer was at the end, but I don't know why Neville was just standing there, perhaps hoping the perp killed Miles..

RIP Mom, we always love you 8/18/13
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post #1287 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 02:01 PM
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It's been said on this thread before, people have used 15 year old fuel before on this thread and it worked just fine. My uncle had a battery in a mustang for over 15 years and he got it started. Nitpickers, geez.
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post #1288 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

10pm is past my bedtime. Plus, this show isn't good enough anymore to bother watching live.

I'll be honest, I usually avoid spoilers and don't come into threads for shows I watch until I'm all caught up, but I only opened this thread this morning to see if anyone thought last night's episode was any good.

There was no new "science" this week, so by "Revolution" standards, the episode was relatively plausible.

(Well, except for that part where the nanites moved the Rocky Mountains to the Kansas border... but other than that... rolleyes.gif)
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post #1289 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by baja7475 View Post

It's been said on this thread before, people have used 15 year old fuel before on this thread and it worked just fine. My uncle had a battery in a mustang for over 15 years and he got it started. Nitpickers, geez.

But a 15 year old grenade is not gonna work

RIP Mom, we always love you 8/18/13
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post #1290 of 1984 Old 05-21-2013, 02:34 PM
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You pull the pin and hold it then, I will be the one running! smile.gif
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