Elementary - New Sherlock Holmes on CBS - Page 4 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 484 Old 10-05-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

The native language of Wales contains words that have no vowels - just consonants with a particular affinity for double L's. eek.gif I have no idea how you'd pronounce some of those words.
Yeah, they could be speaking Klingon for all I know.eek.gif
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post #92 of 484 Old 10-05-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

The native language of Wales contains words that have no vowels - just consonants with a particular affinity for double L's. eek.gif I have no idea how you'd pronounce some of those words.

Err - they do usually have vowels - they're just not ENGLISH vowels. In Welsh both w and y are considered vowels as well as a,e,i,o and u... So to someone who speaks English a word may look vowel-free, but in Welsh it isn't. w is pronounced a bit like the English oo and y is pronounced in variations related to u (as in the English up)

The Welsh alphabet is : a, b, c, ch, d, dd, e, f, ff, g, ng, h, i, l, ll, m, n, o, p, ph, r, rh, s, t, th, u, w, y (The other English consonants are only used in loan words AIUI)

The dd, ff, ng, ll, ph, rh and th are all treated as separate single 'letters' with their own sound.

The 'll' isn't that tricky once you get the hang of it either. Crudely it's a bit like 'cl' or 'hl' I think - or maybe a bit 'th' in some cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language and http://www.go4awalk.com/fell-facts/welsh-language-pronunciation.php for more. It's a fascinating language - and can be very beautiful to listen to. (I work with a couple of native Welsh speakers)
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post #93 of 484 Old 10-05-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Yes, I'm very aware of that having watched loads of UK TV, my mistake was thinking that Wales was just an area in the western part of the country of England, please accept my humble apologies! tongue.gif

Hey - I'm English - no apology needed to me. If you accuse a Welshman of being English... Be afraid. Very afraid.
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post #94 of 484 Old 10-05-2012, 05:20 PM
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In my experience the worst thing one can do is mistake an Aussie for a Brit and vice-versa. As for Sherlock saying cellphone instead of "mobile" that's simply his being sensitive to idioms in the country he's in. As an American if I were ever to visit Great Britain I'd make a conscious effort to say "bonnet" instead of "hood", "boot" instead of "trunk", aluminium instead of aluminum, etc.--seems to me like the polite thing to do.

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post #95 of 484 Old 10-05-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BoilerJim View Post

So does that mean we can quit using the term "African-American?"

If you started, I guess so.

Or just wait until you accidentally use the term in reference to a Jamaican. His response will insure you never bother trying to label people again. smile.gif
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post #96 of 484 Old 10-06-2012, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

As for Sherlock saying cellphone instead of "mobile" that's simply his being sensitive to idioms in the country he's in. As an American if I were ever to visit Great Britain I'd make a conscious effort to say "bonnet" instead of "hood", "boot" instead of "trunk", aluminium instead of aluminum, etc.--seems to me like the polite thing to do.
Except it was the only term he was "sensitive" to. He used a bunch of British terms - then threw "cell phone" in there out of the blue. If he was truly being sensitive, he'd use the word "subway" instead of "tube" since it actually says that on the signs at every entrance to it to remind him what it's called here.

Further, exactly what show were you watching where his first instinct was to say anything polite?
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post #97 of 484 Old 10-06-2012, 11:55 AM
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I'd refer to the UK underground as "Tube" and the New York underground as "Subway" (as a Brit). When in the US I usually tailor my language a bit - so will say cellphone (not mobile), elevator (not lift), apartment (not flat), sidewalk (not pavement), trunk (not boot), hood (not bonnet), lobby (not reception), pavement (not tarmac) etc. when I remember. However there is some idiomatic English that I probably woudn't consciously change - you change what you consciously think may confuse, but definitely not everything.

My biggest issue has actually been my accent rather than my vocabulary. I speak with something close to SBS (Standard British South), not a million miles away from RP or BBC English - and in New York had great problems with the word 'Water" in a coffee shop. I ended up doing a bad american accent and was understood instantly..
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post #98 of 484 Old 10-06-2012, 09:17 PM
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So when they found the lady in the coma, I say to my wife: "Either fake coma or twin." We got both! Btw, the trap SH set was even stupid by the standards on the show. Writing for SH is not easy and I hope these writers are up to it. Thus far, I'm saying "no."

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #99 of 484 Old 10-06-2012, 10:38 PM
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Are you saying the show is too "elementary" ? I watched the first and a bit of the second and dumped it from my DVR.
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post #100 of 484 Old 10-07-2012, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

I watched the first and a bit of the second and dumped it from my DVR.

I've watched both episodes (saw the pilot months ago) and I like this series. I will be watching through the season.

But, I have a friend who also doesn't care for it. Too spoiled by the BBC Sherlock series.

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post #101 of 484 Old 10-07-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I've watched both episodes (saw the pilot months ago) and I like this series. I will be watching through the season.
But, I have a friend who also doesn't care for it. Too spoiled by the BBC Sherlock series.

I too love the BBC Sherlock - why can't two shows exist? They are extremely different but each brings it's own charm to the party.

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post #102 of 484 Old 10-07-2012, 02:29 PM
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It's skating along the edge for me. Just barely interesting enough to keep it on the DVR. I suspect I'll soon get distracted by something else and drop it.
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post #103 of 484 Old 10-07-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ltownsend View Post

I too love the BBC Sherlock - why can't two shows exist?

They do.

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post #104 of 484 Old 10-07-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mac The Knife View Post

It's skating along the edge for me. Just barely interesting enough to keep it on the DVR. I suspect I'll soon get distracted by something else and drop it.

To me its more that I can't watch that many series. I already have a bunch and it took me until now to catch up with most of them on the dvr. A series has to be pretty good to deserve to be watched all season. Btw, anyone noticed that Aidan Quinn seems to have been directly imported from Prime Suspect with the exact same character and rank? That reminds me that it really sucked that Prime Suspect got canceled and the rest of these shows (including this one) which aren't anywhere near as well-written and acted still go on.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #105 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 12:11 AM
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The best sherlock is Robert Downey, Jr

Clearly you have not seen any other Sherlock Holmes. The RDJ films feature the name Sherlock Holmes, but that's all. He certainly is not playing anything like the Holmes character.

The best Holmes, by far, was Jeremy Brett.
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post #106 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 05:57 AM
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If you started, I guess so.
Or just wait until you accidentally use the term in reference to a Jamaican. His response will insure you never bother trying to label people again. smile.gif
Actually, I still use black & white whenever it's absolutely necessary to make a distinction. smile.gif
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post #107 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

Clearly you have not seen any other Sherlock Holmes. The RDJ films feature the name Sherlock Holmes, but that's all. He certainly is not playing anything like the Holmes character.
The best Holmes, by far, was Jeremy Brett.

A lot of people liked the Jeremy Brett series but to me it was as dry as dust, no emotion and no humor.
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post #108 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 08:35 AM
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I am continuing to enjoy Elementary. It's no Sherlock, at least not yet, but is nevertheless off to a good start. I think Jonny Lee Miller and Lucy Liu are great together and the stories have done a nice job of highlighting the quirks in each character's personality. I loved the way in which Sherlock's brilliant deduction at the AA meeting ultimately helped him solve the case but which at first led him to the wrong suspect. Fun Stuff! Perhaps the best part of this week's episode, though, was its complete absence of seemingly magical baseball predictions.

My only complaint so far relates to Miller's biker gang tats. They make him look more like a bottom feeding thug than the troubled but brilliant and well educated scion of a prominent family. At first I thought I had made a mistake and tuned into Sons of Anarchy instead of Elementary.smile.gif That's just me, though, because I detest tattoos. I suspect that others may not be as bothered by Miller's ink as I have been.

I have enjoyed Robert Downey Junior's performances as the title character in his two Holmes films but concede that the character depicted there is far from Arthur Conan Doyle's original Sherlock Holmes. Fortunately for us, the writers of Both BBC's Sherlock and CBS's Elementary have been (mostly) faithful to Doyle's creation.
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post #109 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I also wondered about that. Tats just don't fit into this character.

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - C.G.Jung

 

 

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post #110 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

The best Holmes, by far, was Jeremy Brett.

Agreed, which is why I don't think the comparisons between Elementary and Sherlock hold that much weight. Neither are faithful to the original, since they are both modern remakes, and neither totally capture the intellectual essence of the canonical mysteries. Even the Sherlock folks couldn't resist inserting a silly chase scene into the first series, which was a totally meaningless addition, especially in a Sherlock Holmes story (and "The Blind Banker" had far more eye candy than food for thought). The only real difference between the two is that at least the BBC is behind Sherlock, and if anyone has the right to bastardise Sherlock Holmes, it's the British.
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post #111 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 12:58 PM
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Agreed, which is why I don't think the comparisons between Elementary and Sherlock hold that much weight. Neither are faithful to the original, since they are both modern remakes, and neither totally capture the intellectual essence of the canonical mysteries. Even the Sherlock folks couldn't resist inserting a silly chase scene into the first series, which was a totally meaningless addition, especially in a Sherlock Holmes story (and "The Blind Banker" had far more eye candy than food for thought). The only real difference between the two is that at least the BBC is behind Sherlock, and if anyone has the right to bastardise Sherlock Holmes, it's the British.

I agree that the updating of the Sherlock Homes character to modern times makes it different from the Doyle original by definition. Nevertheless, I give the showrunners of both series high marks for preserving Holmes' quirky personality and highlighting it in the stories they tell. These modernized tales certainly aren't Arthur Conan Doyle but they certainly are Sherlock Holmes.
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post #112 of 484 Old 10-08-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joed32 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

A lot of people liked the Jeremy Brett series but to me it was as dry as dust, no emotion and no humor.

 

At least no one mentioned Basil Rathbone.
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post #113 of 484 Old 10-09-2012, 05:47 AM
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Probably not too many here old enough to remember those. There was also a 38 episode TV show that began in 1954 that Netflix has in their streaming section that wasn't very good.
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post #114 of 484 Old 10-11-2012, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joed32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnacleBill

A lot of people liked the Jeremy Brett series but to me it was as dry as dust, no emotion and no humor.



This makes the quote above look like it came from me. The quote is from joed32. I said that Jeremy Brett was the best Holmes and I would hate it if anyone thought I said differently. "Dry as dust"? Hardly. He was faithful to the original and really demonstrated a complex character. The complexity is missing (or at least muted) in Elementary.
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post #115 of 484 Old 10-11-2012, 11:06 AM
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I figured out why I don't enjoy this show as much as I hoped. It's the total lack of chemistry between the actors. Not that I would want to see any *romantic* chemistry between Holmes and Watson. But, in other depictions of the characters (BBC'S Sherlock, for example), there is at least some hint that the characters like to be around each other and at least have some kind of grudging respect and/or friendship for each other. In this series, there's none of that. It's clear they dislike each other, and are only connected by it being Watson's job to take care of Sherlock. That's a pretty boring dynamic. I hope that changes rather quickly.
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post #116 of 484 Old 10-12-2012, 01:04 AM
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Actually, I think all the personality aspects that they changed were unnecessary and detrimental. Although Holmes did take drugs, it did not define him. Making Watson be there because she was hired by his father destroys the dynamic between the two. Holmes in modern-day New York could work if the writers understood the characters of Holmes and Watson. Clearly they do not. Nor do they understand what makes the Holmes canon so enduring after over 100 years. This is a missed opportunity. Michael Chabon wrote an interesting essay on Holmes in his book, Maps and Legends. I recommend it to any Holmes fans.
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post #117 of 484 Old 10-15-2012, 11:46 AM
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+1

BarnacleBill, I agree completely. Making Watson a paid employee rather than a willing friend has a profound effect on the very nature of the partnership. "...if the writers understood the characters of Holmes and Watson. Clearly they do not." Well said sir!

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #118 of 484 Old 10-15-2012, 01:09 PM
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+1
BarnacleBill, I agree completely. Making Watson a paid employee rather than a willing friend has a profound effect on the very nature of the partnership. "...if the writers understood the characters of Holmes and Watson. Clearly they do not." Well said sir!

 

However she will only be a "paid employee" for 6 weeks I believe.  I think it's pretty obvious that once her contract to be his babysitter is over she'll willingly stick around to help him on cases, thus what you say will come true.  :)


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post #119 of 484 Old 10-15-2012, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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However she will only be a "paid employee" for 6 weeks I believe.  I think it's pretty obvious that once her contract to be his babysitter is over she'll willingly stick around to help him on cases, thus what you say will come true.  smile.gif

Totally agree. I think she is fast becoming engaged in the whole relationship that SH has going with the police dept and is intrigued by the way his thought process solves these crimes.

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post #120 of 484 Old 10-16-2012, 02:50 PM
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However she will only be a "paid employee" for 6 weeks I believe.  I think it's pretty obvious that once her contract to be his babysitter is over she'll willingly stick around to help him on cases, thus what you say will come true.
… if the series remains on the air.
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