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post #31 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

I really appreciate your capture and analysis but in this case it seems like looking at the dB levels is misleading. We never said the center channel audio was lower than the others. The problem was that the dialog was muffled and drowned out by music or other sound effects (turning up the center channel was no help). I'm certainly no expert in 5.1 but when I look at that waveform, I see the center channel is much busier than all the others which could very well mean the dialog is being overpowered.

The idea of the waveform is to show that the center channel is not lower than the L/R channels, which would result in it being drowned out. The fact that it was at a level equal, or better, then the L/R channels should keep it from being drowned out. The waveform is indeed subjective, but it is one reference point.

The center channel, IMHO, was not being overpowered. Keep in mind that the waveform was highly compressed time-wise. I was thinking of showing some sections of the waveform in order to show more detail.
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But were you specifically listening to the center channel? Were you listening for muffled dialog that was over powered by music, surround effects, and loud booming bass? If so, why were you listening for that? If not, would you really have picked up on it?

For the Nashville program, I specifically listened to the center channel by itself to make sure that it wasn't having an issue before getting "mixed" with the rest of the audio. As mentioned in the posting, I did a specific mix where I did a stereo mix of L/C/R and listened to it for any issues (issues can be considered problems biggrin.gif ) and heard none.

As for other ABC west feeds, the listening was of the 5.1 that I created from the 6 mono channels.

I have to ask... are you sure the surround levels on your amp are set correctly, in that the center speaker is not set lower than the L/R speaker outputs?

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #32 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

16 bits does indeed have 65536 total bits, but they range from 0 thru 65535..
But that isn't the technical error.

Shoot, there's something else wrong?

NOW: my post on AVS Forum.
NEXT: someone else's post on AVS Forum.
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post #33 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

The idea of the waveform is to show that the center channel is not lower than the L/R channels, which would result in it being drowned out. The fact that it was at a level equal, or better, then the L/R channels should keep it from being drowned out. The waveform is indeed subjective, but it is one reference point.
The center channel, IMHO, was not being overpowered. Keep in mind that the waveform was highly compressed time-wise. I was thinking of showing some sections of the waveform in order to show more detail.
For the Nashville program, I specifically listened to the center channel by itself to make sure that it wasn't having an issue before getting "mixed" with the rest of the audio. As mentioned in the posting, I did a specific mix where I did a stereo mix of L/C/R and listened to it for any issues (issues can be considered problems biggrin.gif ) and heard none.
As for other ABC west feeds, the listening was of the 5.1 that I created from the 6 mono channels.
I have to ask... are you sure the surround levels on your amp are set correctly, in that the center speaker is not set lower than the L/R speaker outputs?

My center channel is always set 3-5dB louder than every other channel. Like I said, all 150 other channels I watch never had this problem and commercials during the ABC "problem" broadcasts were fine. Again, it's not the other speakers drowning out the center channel. It is like they took the audio from all six channels and mixed it all into the center channel (as well as sending it to the proper channels). So, if I disconnected all my speakers except the center channel it wouldn't matter, the dialog would still be drowned out by all the sound effects, music, and bass coming out of my center speaker.

Also this problem was never there when I watched on a regular Tv (direct antenna or hdmi from Tivo or Dish box to Tv, no external sound system). But was there when I watched on my main system (Tivo box or Dish OTA box or HTPC OTA/clearQAM Card component video to Tv + spdif to AV Receiver 5.1 mode lit up).


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post #34 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by scowl View Post

Shoot, there's something else wrong?

Yep. I think it is easy to missing. You'll groan when you find out what it is.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #35 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

It is like they took the audio from all six channels and mixed it all into the center channel (as well as sending it to the proper channels). So, if I disconnected all my speakers except the center channel it wouldn't matter, the dialog would still be drowned out by all the sound effects, music, and bass coming out of my center speaker.

Ah, I do not believe that you've mentioned this before. The Nashville audio definitely did not have that problem. Where I commonly listen to shows doesn't have a center speaker. I use phantom mode. Plus, I only have it connected in stereo mode. That may, but should not, mask such an issue.

In any event that would be a local affiliate issue.
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Also this problem was never there when I watched on a regular Tv (direct antenna or hdmi from Tivo or Dish box to Tv, no external sound system). But was there when I watched on my main system (Tivo box or Dish OTA box or HTPC OTA/clearQAM Card component video to Tv + spdif to AV Receiver 5.1 mode lit up).

Doesn't make any sense. That said, audio sections of a lot of TVs are not the best, especially when compared to a full blown audio system.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #36 of 53 Old 10-31-2012, 10:58 PM
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ABC has not actually recently added another channel to what is being fed. They are just started using what had been the sometimes used spanish audio channel for descriptive now. The channel numbering sequence as sent by ABC is L/R front, Center front/LFE, L/R surrounds, Spanish or desciptive/Cue tones, and lastly the Lt/Rt stereo feed. This has been the case since the main network feeds were converted to HD.

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post #37 of 53 Old 11-01-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory Boyce View Post

ABC has not actually recently added another channel to what is being fed...This has been the case since the main network feeds were converted to HD.

For anyone that wants to know why I mentioned Circle Surround / ABC in my first post-
Official Circle Surround Thread 2003
ABC & ESPN use Circle Surround 2004
Rory Bryce quotes Ken H saying ABC uses Circle Surround for sports 2004
and
My fist complaints about center channel audio Castle ABC 2009


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post #38 of 53 Old 11-01-2012, 06:45 PM
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So I guess you have come, um, ... full circle?


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post #39 of 53 Old 11-01-2012, 06:53 PM
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Anybody else getting dropouts during the CMA Awards, or is it a local affiliate problem? Thanks!

Bob Simandl ... somewhere near St. Louis
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post #40 of 53 Old 11-02-2012, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory Boyce View Post

ABC has not actually recently added another channel to what is being fed. They are just started using what had been the sometimes used spanish audio channel for descriptive now. The channel numbering sequence as sent by ABC is L/R front, Center front/LFE, L/R surrounds, Spanish or desciptive/Cue tones, and lastly the Lt/Rt stereo feed. This has been the case since the main network feeds were converted to HD.

Sorry, you are correct. The number of streams has not changed.

Your description is incorrect though. The stereo mixdown is the first stream, not last, then the remaining being what you described first.

When ABC started their HD feeds, the audio was 640 kbps DD5.1 AC3. When they converted the HD MPEG-2 to H.264, then yes, the audio was changed to the separate audio streams.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #41 of 53 Old 11-02-2012, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo 
...Doesn't make any sense. That said, audio sections of a lot of TVs are not the best, especially when compared to a full blown audio system.
Not sure how the quality of the audio circuitry has anything to do with it. When the endpoint device selects/uses the stereo mix down the dialog/audio is fine because only the 5.1 center channel stream is foobar.


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post #42 of 53 Old 11-02-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

Not sure how the quality of the audio circuitry has anything to do with it. When the endpoint device selects/uses the stereo mix down the dialog/audio is fine because only the 5.1 center channel stream is foobar.
Not sure what that means. With 5.1 AC3, isn't it the AC3 decoder that does the stereo mixdown using the AC3 metadata? The center channel is usually -3db to each stereo channel so when combined acoustically for a phantom center it's the correct level. The surrounds are also typically attenuated -3.0 db in the mixdown.

I assume the AC3 is being decoded via spdif to the AV receiver. Is the audio being monitored in 5.1. If so, does the mix sound different if the A/V receiver is forced to do a 5.1 mixdown? Also, since the ABC network feed is using Phased Align MPEG pairs, I think the OTA AC3 metadata is set by the individual stations. CBS and NBC used to send AC3 metadata for the stations to use for 5.1/2.0 switching (and the rest of the metadata also such as dialnorm) , but I don't think they use that anymore. Providers re-encoding the OTA stream (such as D* & E*) may set their own parameters on their distribution. As professional decoders allow inhibiting the use of the metadata for decoding, they may not even use the source dialnorm. That may be a moot issue now that (nearly) everyone is using -24db, but I still see some instances where the network and local shows are different on Fox.


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post #43 of 53 Old 11-02-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

Not sure how the quality of the audio circuitry has anything to do with it. When the endpoint device selects/uses the stereo mix down the dialog/audio is fine because only the 5.1 center channel stream is foobar.

As TVOD points out, any OTA device that only outputs stereo will be doing the mixdown from the 5.1 AC-3 it receives. The stereo mixdown that ABC sends out will only be used by stations that are still only DD2.0. Otherwise that stream is dropped into the bit-bucket.

That means, if the center channel is messed up (it isn't as sent out by ABC), then the stereo mixdown should have issues as well.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #44 of 53 Old 05-12-2013, 04:18 PM
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Out of all the tv stations...abc sounds horrible in nyc on fios. Even the picture quality sucks.
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post #45 of 53 Old 05-13-2013, 04:27 PM
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As I suspected, the feed from the LA studio to ABC in NY is using Dolby-E. That actually isn't bad, since it is 24 bit audio. Keep in mind that the audio that ABC feeds to the affiliates is 16 bit.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #46 of 53 Old 05-14-2013, 12:54 PM
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16-bit sounds like old school gaming quality audio, and that shows if some ABC affiliates split their HD signal into two channels. ABC on demand audio on fios is 2.0 audio frown.gif.
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post #47 of 53 Old 05-14-2013, 01:21 PM
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16-bit sounds like old school gaming quality audio

That's apples and oranges. Video game music from those days was sequenced, rather than streaming, so it had no bit depth. As far as bit depth is concerned in streaming audio, the human ear is not sensitive enough to distinguish between 16-bit and 24-bit audio. Using bit depths higher than 16 is useful during the audio engineering stage to prevent degradation due to repeated alterations, but once the final audio is being delivered to the listener, there is no reason to use more than 16 bits.
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post #48 of 53 Old 05-14-2013, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

That's apples and oranges. Video game music from those days was sequenced, rather than streaming, so it had no bit depth.

Excuse me, but if the audio was digital, it had bit depth. Not having dealt with gaming audio, I don't know what you mean by sequenced audio.

I don't know if the MPEG audio format that is used for satellite feeds even supports 24-bit audio.

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post #49 of 53 Old 05-14-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kascnef82 View Post

16-bit sounds like old school gaming quality audio, and that shows if some ABC affiliates split their HD signal into two channels. ABC on demand audio on fios is 2.0 audio frown.gif.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The OTA broadcast signal is not HD. Our OTA standard is DTV ATSC. Within the mux there can be one or more HD program streams, and/or one or more SD streams. The total bitrate (19.2 Mbps) is split between the various programs streams and other digital streams and overhead.

Each program stream can have at least one AC3 DD5.1 audio stream @ 384 kbps. The number of program streams does not affect the audio quality, as the audio bitrate is not changed.

If you meant something else, please let us know.

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post #50 of 53 Old 05-14-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I don't know what you mean by sequenced audio.

Sequenced audio is stored as a set of instructions for a music synthesizer to generate sounds in realtime, e.g. MIDI format, rather than streaming audio, which is a stored recording of sound waves. Cartridges for game systems had low capacity (e.g. up to 6MB for SNES), so they didn't have space to spend on audio recordings. Streaming music didn't become possible in video games until CD-based consoles arrived, although many games still used sequenced audio to save space and allow more content to fit on a single disc.
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post #51 of 53 Old 05-15-2013, 11:53 PM
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OK, here are the results of my editing the 6:58 section pointed to for reviewing.

I even listened to the audio via headphones and spot checked portions of the audio and had no issues with it at all. The ABC turnaround of the audio from the studio in LA seemed to be unaltered. I saw nothing in the waveforms to indicated that they did anything, nor did I hear anything.

Here are the four files. Keep in mind that I do not have the speediest of DSL connections, so it might take a little bit to download them. So don't all of the AVS members try to get these files at the same time and please, download them one at a time.

LA Studio MP3
LA Studio AC3
ABC Net East MP3
ABC Net East AC3

Do a right-click Save-As for these files. They will not stream.

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"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #52 of 53 Old 06-07-2013, 03:50 PM
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I had to do some searching to find this discussion...and have a question...or two...and hope it is not to far off topic....
It's not about surround directly...but the artifacts in down converting dd5.1 to stereo....which is how many people watch TV, without a surround sound system hooked up with them.
Watching ABC shows in stereo on an older Zenith stereo flat screen TV and the dialog audio fades in and out, but all the background sounds are still there.
I noticed this a lot watching Body of Proof ....now cancelled.. but there are other ABC shows, I have to watch with the remote in my hand so I can raise and lower the volume to fully understand the ongoing dialog.
The plasma screen and 7.1 system in the living room is completely different, and there are no effects like any of this as far as I can hear. I am using a TOSLINK cable between the cable box and preamp of the installed system and the decoding works the way it is supposed to.
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post #53 of 53 Old 06-07-2013, 05:05 PM
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Prime time abc sports sound horrible...blame espn.
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