'The Americans' on FX HD - Page 47 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 07:36 AM
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Yes, I think the lack of a Martha scene was unfortunate, given the way the previous episode ended. But I liked the scene with Elizabeth's mom. Thought it was moving. I hadn't thought they'd bring mom to West Germany, but in hindsight it makes more sense than risking an appearance by Elizabeth in the USSR, which could have set off red flags if detected by the U.S.

Disappointed in Paige giving up her parents like that (despite it being to someone she trusts implicitly). I understand she's torn and under tremendous pressure, but given her age, I would have thought blood to be a bit thicker for her than that, especially after the visit with Grandma. Will be interesting to see if Phil and Elizabeth get a head start on running (i.e. does Paige tell them she spilled the beans, which also might spell the end for Pastor Tim) or will pastor Tim alert the FBI, who will be able to set a trap and tighten the noose without the Jennings' awareness? With the latter, we could see a storyline where they're turned. Phil's burned out and disgruntled as it is.
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post #1382 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 08:34 AM
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For those looking for a little insight into the finale here are some "answers"

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8473881...view-interview


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post #1383 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalav View Post
Yes, I think the lack of a Martha scene was unfortunate, given the way the previous episode ended. But I liked the scene with Elizabeth's mom. Thought it was moving. I hadn't thought they'd bring mom to West Germany, but in hindsight it makes more sense than risking an appearance by Elizabeth in the USSR, which could have set off red flags if detected by the U.S.

Disappointed in Paige giving up her parents like that (despite it being to someone she trusts implicitly). I understand she's torn and under tremendous pressure, but given her age, I would have thought blood to be a bit thicker for her than that, especially after the visit with Grandma. Will be interesting to see if Phil and Elizabeth get a head start on running (i.e. does Paige tell them she spilled the beans, which also might spell the end for Pastor Tim) or will pastor Tim alert the FBI, who will be able to set a trap and tighten the noose without the Jennings' awareness? With the latter, we could see a storyline where they're turned. Phil's burned out and disgruntled as it is.

It was rather strange that they left off last time with such a big ending and then only mention it in passing close to the end. The scene with the IT guy was a bit obscure. I had to watch the second showing to figure out who he was. I'm guessing Martha did go off to visit her parents after all and that Phillip revealed himself to her to gain her trust even more.

I was hoping for more with Elizabeth, her mom and Paige. That was a touching moment and could have really shown Elizabeth in a more sympathetic light to Paige and the viewers. Paige is a teenager and to her, her parents are the part of "The Establishment" that she is rebelling against. She gains comfort and solace from her religion, so she is turning to that in her time of need. It definitely looks like Phillip is going to have to make good on his threats to Pastor Tim.
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post #1384 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 09:57 AM
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I was hoping for more with Elizabeth, her mom and Paige. That was a touching moment and could have really shown Elizabeth in a more sympathetic light to Paige and the viewers.
The burden that Elizabeth has placed on Paige by confessing to her that she and Philip are Soviet spies was a horrible thing to so, I thought. In his excellent recap of the episode in Grantland, Andy Greenwald expressed my sentiments about what Elizabeth did:
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Elizabeth truly seems to believe that confessing to Paige was an act of kindness when it was really an act of monstrous egoism and cruelty. Inside that linoleum-lined kitchen, it was maybe possible to imagine the moment as another in a long line of simmering domestic struggles. But through our screens and through the scrim of history, we could see it for what it truly was: two cold warriors pulling the pin on a grenade and handing it to a 16-year-old girl.
Amen! Read the Greenwald piece, by the way, it has some excellent insights.

I loved the scene in which the senior FBI guy told Stan that he would be working on his own from then on and wouldn't have to deal with the FBI bureaucracy any longer. Then, the FBI guy walks into Stan's boss's office. We see Stan's boss with a s*it eating grin on his face, obviously expecting to hear from the senior guy that Stan has been fired. I would have liked to see Stan's boss's expression when he found out what really happened.
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post #1385 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 11:02 AM
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Unless Pastor Tim is some type of Russian ally, he's not long for this world once Phillip and Elizabeth find out.

At first, I thought the girl that befriended Paige when she took off to see Aunt Helen last season was tailing her. Then she introduced Paige to her church and Pastor Tim. But Paige took that bus trip independently without her parents or anyone's knowledge, so I doubt that's the case.

What does Pastor Tim do with this info? Does Paige actually tell him her parents are spies, not just liars? If so, he has to contact authorities. Then this show will really get interesting, especially if Stan gets involved.

Too bad we have to wait until next January to find out.

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post #1386 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
....Then, the FBI guy walks into Stan's boss's office. We see Stan's boss with a s*it eating grin on his face, obviously expecting to hear from the senior guy that Stan has been fired. I would have liked to see Stan's boss's expression when he found out what really happened.
Say good night John-Boy....
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post #1387 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 12:49 PM
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I don't know, Paige reached out to her parents, out of exasperation and fear.

In that moment, they both agreed to open up to their daughter, even though Philip wanted to shield his kids from their secret lives.

I don't see them forcing Paige back into a corner and pledging allegiance to them, the choices they've made and their motherland.

It wasn't some calculated, strategic act to decide then and there to come clean.

It seemed more a human attempt to connect with their daughter, to reveal their truths.
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post #1388 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Unless Pastor Tim is some type of Russian ally, he's not long for this world once Phillip and Elizabeth find out.

At first, I thought the girl that befriended Paige when she took off to see Aunt Helen last season was tailing her. Then she introduced Paige to her church and Pastor Tim. But Paige took that bus trip independently without her parents or anyone's knowledge, so I doubt that's the case.

What does Pastor Tim do with this info? Does Paige actually tell him her parents are spies, not just liars? If so, he has to contact authorities. Then this show will really get interesting, especially if Stan gets involved.

Too bad we have to wait until next January to find out.

At the end, Paige whispers over the phone "They're Russians." I think Pastor Tim will figure out that she means that they're spies.
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post #1389 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 02:06 PM
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What does Pastor Tim do with this info? Does Paige actually tell him her parents are spies, not just liars? If so, he has to contact authorities.
Does he though? If Paige confides in her pastor is that not a thing said in confidence? Plus if he betrays Paige's confidence then she and her brother lose her parents and he pisses her off at the same time. That will be harming the entire family, innocents and all.


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post #1390 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
The burden that Elizabeth has placed on Paige by confessing to her that she and Philip are Soviet spies was a horrible thing to so, I thought. In his excellent recap of the episode in Grantland, Andy Greenwald expressed my sentiments about what Elizabeth did: Amen! Read the Greenwald piece, by the way, it has some excellent insights.

I loved the scene in which the senior FBI guy told Stan that he would be working on his own from then on and wouldn't have to deal with the FBI bureaucracy any longer. Then, the FBI guy walks into Stan's boss's office. We see Stan's boss with a s*it eating grin on his face, obviously expecting to hear from the senior guy that Stan has been fired. I would have liked to see Stan's boss's expression when he found out what really happened.
Could not agree more about Paige. It was telling when she asked her mother if she would send her away. I guess will find out what kind of Pastor, Pastor Tim is.
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post #1391 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalav View Post
Yes, I think the lack of a Martha scene was unfortunate, given the way the previous episode ended. But I liked the scene with Elizabeth's mom. Thought it was moving. I hadn't thought they'd bring mom to West Germany, but in hindsight it makes more sense than risking an appearance by Elizabeth in the USSR, which could have set off red flags if detected by the U.S.

Disappointed in Paige giving up her parents like that (despite it being to someone she trusts implicitly). I understand she's torn and under tremendous pressure, but given her age, I would have thought blood to be a bit thicker for her than that, especially after the visit with Grandma. Will be interesting to see if Phil and Elizabeth get a head start on running (i.e. does Paige tell them she spilled the beans, which also might spell the end for Pastor Tim) or will pastor Tim alert the FBI, who will be able to set a trap and tighten the noose without the Jennings' awareness? With the latter, we could see a storyline where they're turned. Phil's burned out and disgruntled as it is.
I would have thought that blood would be thicker than ones ideology as well. Elizabeth has no idea what her daughter is going through. Her main goal is to recruit her daughter into the program.
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post #1392 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 05:37 PM
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I would have thought that blood would be thicker than ones ideology as well. Elizabeth has no idea what her daughter is going through. Her main goal is to recruit her daughter into the program.

That changed after the visit I think. Her statement "you'll never have to make that choice (or go through that)" was basically telling Paige she'll never "have to leave". If she was dead set on getting her recruited then she would have said something different.


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post #1393 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 08:28 PM
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That changed after the visit I think. Her statement "you'll never have to make that choice (or go through that)" was basically telling Paige she'll never "have to leave". If she was dead set on getting her recruited then she would have said something different.
But unlike the time Elizabeth was taken as Illegals Paige would not be required to leave to be recruited. She is already versed in American culture so does not need that to be taught at a training camp. Paige could be trained by her parents in other stuff just as the other recruit is.

Elizabeth might not let Paige be taken away for whatever reason, but that doesn't necessarily make Elizabeth any less inclined to make her an asset.

Remember in the previous season there was another group in which the family attempted to convert their son to the cause and over time it went bad and he killed them. So the Russians have already tried before.


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post #1394 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 09:04 PM
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I wonder what Paige is felling other than sad, I don't think just saying they are Russian's would make any deference, as in so what. The pasture will just double up on conversion of them. I assume that they did not leave the West, the handlers did not want to let ether one see the bad conditions in the East. Thats what I got from watching them get into the shiny black Panzer wagon.
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post #1395 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 09:45 PM
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I wonder what Paige is felling other than sad, I don't think just saying they are Russian's would make any deference, as in so what. The pasture will just double up on conversion of them. I assume that they did not leave the West, the handlers did not want to let ether one see the bad conditions in the East. Thats what I got from watching them get into the shiny black Panzer wagon.

It sounds like you miss large chunks of the show. They told her they are Russian spies. That her life has basically been a fabricated lie and that all that she holds dear is not real if has been connected to her family.


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post #1396 of 1409 Old 04-23-2015, 09:50 PM
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But unlike the time Elizabeth was taken as Illegals Paige would not be required to leave to be recruited. She is already versed in American culture so does not need that to be taught at a training camp. Paige could be trained by her parents in other stuff just as the other recruit is.



Elizabeth might not let Paige be taken away for whatever reason, but that doesn't necessarily make Elizabeth any less inclined to make her an asset.



Remember in the previous season there was another group in which the family attempted to convert their son to the cause and over time it went bad and he killed them. So the Russians have already tried before.

I just took from her look and what she said she may have changed her mind. Paige has already shown she doesn't have "it" and would revel against what the center would want her to do. Once she becomes an operative she would have to leave however or whenever the center decided that they wanted her elsewhere for training. Elizabeth I believe doesn't want Paige to go through what she went through (mother dying at a distance etc).

The Russians trying before to keep it internal to the family would be a "great" reason for them to want Paige elsewhere for training


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post #1397 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 05:39 AM
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It sounds like you miss large chunks of the show. They told her they are Russian spies. That her life has basically been a fabricated lie and that all that she holds dear is not real if has been connected to her family.


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It's not what they told her. It is what she tells the pasture. That is a question for next season.
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post #1398 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 06:47 AM
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It's not what they told her. It is what she tells the pasture. That is a question for next season.

You may want to go over your original post as your point wasn't clear then. Her saying they were Russian WAS a big deal back then. Especially when they weren't open about being Russian.


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post #1399 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 06:51 AM
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It's not what they told her. It is what she tells the pasture. That is a question for next season.

And when P & E find out that Paige confessed to the Pastor, they will send him out to Pasture.
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post #1400 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 07:46 AM
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And when P & E find out that Paige confessed to the Pastor, they will send him out to Pasture.
What's a pasture full off?
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post #1401 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 07:53 AM
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What's a pasture full off?

Suitcases?
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post #1402 of 1409 Old 04-24-2015, 08:18 PM
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In reality the Centre would never let Paige come home to screw it all up.
You're forgetting that like Elizabeth, they're still in total denial about the prospect of having second-generation spies. The entire concept is fatally flawed; if they wait until the kids are old enough to understand what's going on, they'll rebel and blow their parents' cover. If parents try to turn their kids early enough for the indoctrination to have a chance of success, the kids' inexperience will blow their parents' cover. It's a lose-lose proposition.

That was a brilliant final sequence juxtaposing Philip's recognition that he's a monster who can't cope with who he really is with Paige's breakdown and inability to cope with her parents' lies, all while Elizabeth recoils from the American anti-Soviet rhetoric and becomes all the more certain that she has the moral high ground.

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Does Paige actually tell him her parents are spies, not just liars?
She said that they are Russians, so... it seems pretty clear-cut to me. Pastor Tim should spend the next few days picking out the suitcase he wants to be buried in, and his disappearance should really help alleviate Paige's concerns.

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I would have thought that blood would be thicker than ones ideology as well. Elizabeth has no idea what her daughter is going through. Her main goal is to recruit her daughter into the program.
We've seen time and again that Elizabeth puts country before all else, unlike Philip, who frequenly has doubts about what he does. It doesn't surprise me that Elizabeth is blind to Paige's pain; she expects everyone else to be just as patriotic as she is and to see the plight of her country as justification for everything she does.

I guess that's one of the things I like most about this show: for someone so brilliant at spycraft as Elizabeth, she's incredibly stupid when it comes to people, which is what makes her a compelling character. All of these people have character flaws that make them seem real and make their actions understandable, which is something that precious few shows manage to portray consistently.
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post #1403 of 1409 Old Yesterday, 08:17 AM
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Exactly, what makes this show so strong is the internal conflict between Elizabeth, Philip, the Centre handlers and now Paige. The lines are now clearly drawn (to me) and we'll just have to wait and see who wins out, or if they are all fractured into different factions. And then you have the eternal threat of the FBI finding out and closing in on them on top of all that.

Great show! Hope it wins some awards.
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post #1404 of 1409 Old Yesterday, 09:53 AM
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Great show! Hope it wins some awards.
ME TOO.

Now for a View from the pasture.

Blood is thicker then ideology. Paige was moved by Mom and Grandmother's reunion. She realized after that if she blows the whistle on them then she won't have Mom around. Paige's ideology is not Mom's but blood is still thicker. Anybody see a move to Santa Fa in the long run.

That could be a Hallmark movie, have Stan the FED next door with his Russian girl friend Nina married by now and every one is happy ever after.

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post #1405 of 1409 Unread Today, 06:54 AM
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What an amazing season finale! This show can ratchet up the tension like no other (at least since 'Breaking Bad' wrapped). It's clear Moscow doesn't really understand how difficult it is for their undercover agents in the field. Thinking that it would be possible to recruit natural born children, especially after what happened to the previous family they tried it with, is an exercise in folly.

One wonders if Phil&Liz would ever have even told Paige about who they really were if the Centre had not issued an order for Paige to be recruited, and Elizabeth had not bought into it. The fact that Phil&Liz have been so successful with whatever mission they've been tasked with may have lulled their handlers into thinking they could literally do the impossible -- recruit one of their own natural born children to the cause. It might work one time out of a hundred, but they're 0 for 2 so far.

I never expected Phil to off the FBI's I.T. guy as a way to deflect the investigation off of Martha. Yes, we could have had a scene where Martha finds out the guy has suddenly committed suicide, the investigation is concluded, and she's off the hook, but that scene will have to be reserved for next season. In the timeline of the show, it just happened that very day. Aaaaaand, there goes the last chunk of Philip's soul. This season had both Phil&Liz forced to commit horrific murders of innocents in the line of duty. Clearly, this isn't a job that leads to many happy endings.

Didn't really understand the whole EST/sex talk scene, seemed like a waste of time in an otherwise pivital episode, unless they're trying to set up a romantic subplot between Philip and Sandra next season. She certainly seems amenable. And Philip is more vulnerable, conflicted, and "not thinking clearly" than he's ever been, so it's not that much of a reach.

The fact that the meeting between Elizabeth, her mother and Paige took place in W.Germany probably has to do with The Centre deciding it was easier to smuggle one old lady into the west than an agent (who may have been being watched, as Elizabeth feared) and her daughter into the east. Makes sense from a logistical standpoint.

But Paige ratting out her parents to her pastor, man, that's a real game changer. When Phil&Liz find out, they'll have to do something quickly, before he gets a chance to tell anyone else. And if he suddenly "disappears", they've lost Paige forever.

Man, is it January yet? Like Andy Greenwald says, "Best show on TV, full stop".
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I likewise loved the last episode - there was a lot of emotional depth in it. I thought Paige's reaction was totally natural. She's for all practical purposes, a normal American girl. Elizabeth overplayed the mom card... the funny thing is, she is really pretty clueless when it comes to her daughter, thinking that Paige will suck up everything she's discovered and fall in line and be a good soldier. The show (and its actors) do a great job of humanizing the characters they portray, but this is one time where they make it easy to dislike Elizabeth... she's trying to beat the innate goodness and honesty out of Paige, and I'm glad to see that it isn't working. This is what Phillip understands better than anyone else.
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post #1407 of 1409 Unread Today, 08:11 AM
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I wouldn't be shocked to find out the pastor works for the Center. The way Paige was initially"recruited" into the church by the girl on the bus seemed like an obvious setup. Everything she's been involved with from that point feels like she's being guided by someone.
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I wouldn't be shocked to find out the pastor works for the Center. The way Paige was initially"recruited" into the church by the girl on the bus seemed like an obvious setup. Everything she's been involved with from that point feels like she's being guided by someone.
Agreed about the way Paige was recruited into the church, but there's no way it would be the Soviets. Religion goes against the Communist doctrine. It would be hard to convert people hooked on the religious aspect of the group to Communism. If anything, it's some other extreme organization like the Jim Jones church.
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One thing every one is missing is the delicious irony of Paige telling Tim about her parents just like everyone used to do in the old Communist countries. Her real torture is the lying that her parents have now asked of her. She confessed to Tim to try to alleviate some of that burden. Since she can't deal with the lies, her future as a spy is pretty much sealed.

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