'The Americans' on FX HD - Page 70 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2071 of 2305 Old 04-11-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by blitzen102 View Post
Agreed. I think she is CIA.
Maybe FBI or NSA or other agency, but wouldn't CIA be illegal since he's a citizen? (Not saying it never happened, but just seems a bit out of the purview of the show too.)

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post #2072 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 07:31 AM
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They will never defect. They just won't. Elizabeth never would, under any circumstances, because she's a True Believer in the Cause. And Philip wouldn't without her because, at the end of the day, his primary loyalty is to her and his family.
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post #2073 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheroy View Post
Maybe FBI or NSA or other agency, but wouldn't CIA be illegal since he's a citizen? (Not saying it never happened, but just seems a bit out of the purview of the show too.)
Yeah, maybe some other agency. I should've just posted that I think she is a US versus USSR agent.
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post #2074 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 09:33 AM
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I thought this week's episode was particularly well done, smart and thoughtful. This was television of a very high order.
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post #2075 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 10:08 AM
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Phillip talking with Paige at the table and when she said she will never be happy broke his heart. I don't care where his love for Liz is at he will walk away from her for his kids. There problem is there values and just like many other things we regret we do with time we all make a good decision with are heart.

These are just my opinions.
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post #2076 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 10:16 AM
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Wait, they just took Paige to see Gabriel? That might changes things. I'm not sure about Blondie, Philip did tailed her and nothing conclusive yet. Oleg feels the danger has passed.Elizabeth feels remorse. Interesting episode, just when I thought I "knew" these people unexpected things are happening. Great show indeed.
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post #2077 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
They will never defect. They just won't. Elizabeth never would, under any circumstances, because she's a True Believer in the Cause. And Philip wouldn't without her because, at the end of the day, his primary loyalty is to her and his family.
I disagree. A "True Believer" is a personality type which tends towards absolutes on both sides, expecting the object of their faith to meet expectations. Once those expectations are not met it's not uncommon for a TB to turn the opposite way as their faith is shattered. They are setting things up for at least the possibility that Elizabeth is on her way to being very disillusioned with her homeland.

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post #2078 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 12:57 PM
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Did you catch that subtle expression of "give me a break" disdain on Elizabeth's face as she left the psychiatrist office?

It will be interesting to see if she visits the psychiatrist often enough to actually start revealing true emotions and whether that will break her open more like Philip at EST.
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post #2079 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Did you catch that subtle expression of "give me a break" disdain on Elizabeth's face as she left the psychiatrist office?
Exactly. That semi-sneer on Elizabeth's face as she left the shrink's office was a hoot and a very nice touch. Don't know whether the director or Keri Russell had the inspiration for that bit of business but whichever one of them it was has my respect.

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post #2080 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
They will never defect. They just won't. Elizabeth never would, under any circumstances, because she's a True Believer in the Cause. And Philip wouldn't without her because, at the end of the day, his primary loyalty is to her and his family.
I'm not sure why, but it seems like a lot of people who don't really understand the show seem to be watching (or at least commenting) this season. There's been a lot more "They're going to see the error of their ways and defect! USA! USA!" sentiments being thrown around lately, even though it seems painfully obvious (at least if you're paying attention?) that there will be no happy endings here. Anyone who thinks Elizabeth would defect clearly doesn't understand her character at all and probably doesn't understand the show in general, either.

I wouldn't normally feel it was proper to call out an entire group of viewers, but if you're viewing The Americans from a nationalistic US viewpoint, then you're doing yourself a disservice by missing the larger implications here, and I implore you to adopt a more objective viewpoint so that you can understand what's going on without a simplistic "us vs them" mentality getting in the way of seeing the show's larger points on morality and how people can do horrendous things in the name of patriotism -- a concept not owned by the people of any one country.

Honestly, I miss the more thoughtful and nuanced discussions we had during the first season, and I hope we can get back to them somehow.
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post #2081 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
I'm not sure why, but it seems like a lot of people who don't really understand the show seem to be watching (or at least commenting) this season. There's been a lot more "They're going to see the error of their ways and defect! USA! USA!" sentiments being thrown around lately, even though it seems painfully obvious (at least if you're paying attention?) that there will be no happy endings here. Anyone who thinks Elizabeth would defect clearly doesn't understand her character at all and probably doesn't understand the show in general, either.

I wouldn't normally feel it was proper to call out an entire group of viewers, but if you're viewing The Americans from a nationalistic US viewpoint, then you're doing yourself a disservice by missing the larger implications here, and I implore you to adopt a more objective viewpoint so that you can understand what's going on without a simplistic "us vs them" mentality getting in the way of seeing the show's larger points on morality and how people can do horrendous things in the name of patriotism -- a concept not owned by the people of any one country.

Honestly, I miss the more thoughtful and nuanced discussions we had during the first season, and I hope we can get back to them somehow.

I agree there will not be happy ending, but I'm not sure what "objectivity" you are after or pretending to "know" more than anybody else here. This is an art form not an exact science which could only have one outcome, the show can end any which way the producers decide, and we can just love it or hate it.But not just the ending it's quite obvious that people see things differently, even when they actually watch the same thing Furthermore this has nothing to do with "patriotism" this gotta be one of dumbest thing I've read here, it is simply about ideology the most deadly of any of such in modern history. I grew up under Soviet occupation, which was a follow up to our revolution that denounced Stalin-ism, and wanted to be FREE and independent from such hateful and devastating system of government. We were no threat to the USSR militarily or economically , rather they simply wanted to keep control as much territory and countries under their regime as possible.Yes it was part of the Cold War tactics as Europe was basically a chessboard for both side, but "patriotism" was the last thing on the Soviet's mind.

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post #2082 of 2305 Old 04-12-2017, 11:23 PM
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You're kind of getting to my point. A lot of people (specifically in the US) are watching the show from a US viewpoint and thinking, "Well, they have to defect in the end, because the US is the good guy, and we want a happy ending!" Those people are missing the point that the show takes place mostly from a Soviet perspective, and for someone like Elizabeth who has been drinking the Kool-Aid all her life, the Soviets are the good guys, so defecting would be a sad ending in her eyes (not that she would break the fourth wall to consider the kind of ending she is getting as a character in a TV show).

At this point you could make the argument that Philip's doubts will lead to him defecting by the end, but there's no way Elizabeth could defect without completely shattering the immense credibility the show has built thus far. I'm of the opinion that Philip won't defect, because his loyalty to Elizabeth outweighs his doubts in the Soviet cause, but at least there's a case to be made for both positions here, unlike the idea that there's going to be some magical happily-ever-after where the whole family gets FBI protection, or something. I have to assume that the people who have suggested such a ludicrous ending scenario either aren't paying attention or don't understand the show (and specifically Elizabeth as a character) at all.

As I said previously, I wouldn't normally consider affronting other viewers who have a difference of opinion, but I'm simply flabberghasted at how this notion keeps getting brought up.
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post #2083 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
You're kind of getting to my point. A lot of people (specifically in the US) are watching the show from a US viewpoint and thinking, "Well, they have to defect in the end, because the US is the good guy, and we want a happy ending!" Those people are missing the point that the show takes place mostly from a Soviet perspective, and for someone like Elizabeth who has been drinking the Kool-Aid all her life, the Soviets are the good guys, so defecting would be a sad ending in her eyes (not that she would break the fourth wall to consider the kind of ending she is getting as a character in a TV show).
I've been watching the show from the beginning and I'm not a super patriotic, jingoistic USA type. It's just that the recent season has had a notable shift in showing things that were historically problems with the USSR and negatives that even Elizabeth is starting to see. (Some of it she isn't directly experiencing of course, like Martha browsing mostly empty shelves but E & P have both clearly experienced deprivation in their formative years.) It is clear to me that they are setting up at least the possibility of a sea change in E's attitude. Will it have a happy ending? As I mentioned in my initial post about that, I doubt it would or that a potential defection would entail them fully retaining their freedom so I'm definitely not seeing this as some happily ever after, they become "good guys" type thing. It would be gut wrenching. Also, the show has depicted some fairly nasty things being done by the US - in this game there were no pure "white hats".
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post #2084 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 08:00 AM
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No way this has a happy ending. To me the only question is do they die at the hands of the Soviets, Americans, or each other.


Or thinking the family in an earlier season, Henry.
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post #2085 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 09:17 AM
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I am inclined to agree that The Americans tells a story that can't end well for its protagonists. Philip and Elizabeth are ostensibly an All American couple with a nice American family. The facts, though, reveal that they are the murderous undercover secret agents of a violent and repressive regime. The saddest development to me so far is Elizabeth having drawn her innocent daughter, Paige, into her sick and criminal secret orbit. Bottom line: Neither Elizabeth nor to a slightly lesser degree, Philip, deserves to live happily ever after. They are serial killers and some of their victims have been innocents. For example, Elizabeth murdered an old lady in cold blood to coverup a breaking and Philip broke the neck of an innocent lab technician. I hope that we don't get to see Paige reach the point of no return but if she keeps on her current path, it's inevitable.

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post #2086 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 09:53 AM
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Neither Elizabeth nor to a slightly lesser degree, Philip, deserves to live happily ever after. They are serial killers and some of their victims have been innocents. For example, Elizabeth murdered an old lady in cold blood to coverup a breaking and Philip broke the neck of an innocent lab technician. .
I agree. Although we are seeing some remorse, especially on Phillips part over the wheat tech killing, they now will be breaking in again to steal the super strain of wheat for Russia. Although a lot of people would love to see them turned, I hope that is not the way the show goes. There have been a lot of shows that we had sympathy for the main character but it did not end well for them. "Breaking Bad" and "Boardwalk Empire" immediately come to mind as great, but not feel good endings.

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post #2087 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 11:09 AM
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After seeing this week's episode I no longer have any feeling that there is anything being set up for a defection scenario. Elizabeth's True Believer status isn't going anywhere - the wheat program is now an opportunity to help the homeland in a different way.

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post #2088 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 05:30 PM
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I loved how quickly Gabriel went from they are trying to destroy our crops, to we must try to steal it rather than later having to buy the seeds.
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post #2089 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 08:13 PM
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I am inclined to agree that The Americans tells a story that can't end well for its protagonists. Philip and Elizabeth are ostensibly an All American couple with a nice American family. The facts, though, reveal that they are the murderous undercover secret agents of a violent and repressive regime. The saddest development to me so far is Elizabeth having drawn her innocent daughter, Paige, into her sick and criminal secret orbit. Bottom line: Neither Elizabeth nor to a slightly lesser degree, Philip, deserves to live happily ever after. They are serial killers and some of their victims have been innocents. For example, Elizabeth murdered an old lady in cold blood to coverup a breaking and Philip broke the neck of an innocent lab technician. I hope that we don't get to see Paige reach the point of no return but if she keeps on her current path, it's inevitable.
Don't forget Paige is religious unlike her parents, but even without that factor she is just a "well rounded" good person who grew up in a safe environment. Her parents had none of those things and I'm sure as children they were just as innocent and faultless till ugly circumstances led them on a different path, but furthermore they were brainwashed and forced to do things even during their training that no one should endure or participate. I don't see how the last few episodes will have something similar that could turn Paige into the monsters P&E are, in such a short time.
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post #2090 of 2305 Old 04-13-2017, 08:22 PM
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No way this has a happy ending. To me the only question is do they die at the hands of the Soviets, Americans, or each other.


Or thinking the family in an earlier season, Henry.
Yeah season 2 they were wiped out.
Since this is television my prediction is Philip will kill Elizabeth and gives up all his network in exchange to save his children, but not for himself. But the producers just might go really dark and have the Soviets kill the entire family, which was in the cards all along. But we got a few more weeks to go.

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post #2091 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 05:47 PM
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Ol' Stan finally had success cold calling. Curious why he considers the babuska an asset and will she meet the same fate as Nina?

Philip was against Paige's recruitment and their kitchen table conversation should have broken his heart. With Gabriel's departure as catalyst, appears he'll have to decide between his daughter and his arranged marriage partner.
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post #2092 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 06:26 PM
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I was disappointed that Phillip's Russian son made it all the way to the US only to be intercepted by Gabriel and turned back. Why did they devote so much time to his story/journey if there was never to be a meeting? What a curve ball that would have been for Philip and Elizabeth.
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post #2093 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 06:39 PM
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.... With Gabriel's departure as catalyst, appears he'll have to decide between his daughter and his arranged marriage partner that he loves.
fixed.
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post #2094 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 06:42 PM
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I was disappointed that Phillip's Russian son made it all the way to the US only to be intercepted by Gabriel and turned back. Why did they devote so much time to his story/journey if there was never to be a meeting?
If Philip later finds out about it and this deepens his distrust or sense of betrayal with respect to "The Centre", then it has served a purpose.

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What a curve ball that would have been for Philip and Elizabeth.
Yes, that could have been interesting.
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post #2095 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 06:48 PM
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.. But the producers just might go really dark and have the Soviets kill the entire family, which was in the cards all along.
Not sure what you mean. Taking out the Jennings is not what "The Centre" want at all. If on the other hand, the Jennings (or Philip alone) betray the Soviets, then that is another matter and certainly elimination would be the end result. But it's not been in the cards all along; they'd rather welcome them both back as patriot heroes.
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fixed.
What happens after he concludes she's a bad influence on his daughter and incorrigible?
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post #2097 of 2305 Old 04-15-2017, 08:40 PM
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Why did they devote so much time to his story/journey if there was never to be a meeting?
It seems obvious to me that Philip will learn of Gabriel's betrayal, because as you say, the entire arc would have been pointless otherwise. The only questions are when and how he will find out and what he will do once he knows.
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post #2098 of 2305 Old 04-16-2017, 03:59 AM
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Not sure what you mean. Taking out the Jennings is not what "The Centre" want at all. If on the other hand, the Jennings (or Philip alone) betray the Soviets, then that is another matter and certainly elimination would be the end result. But it's not been in the cards all along; they'd rather welcome them both back as patriot heroes.
Ok so let me clarify...
It's not what they[the Centre] want, but if the Jennings become a liability they will be history, there is always a chance for that so termination is always in the cards. It's more of back up measure than a primary one, of course they want them back as heroes if possible.

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post #2099 of 2305 Old 04-16-2017, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
What happens after he concludes she's a bad influence on his daughter and incorrigible?
Assuming for just a moment that your leading (though plausible) question is the direction the story is headed, my guess is that he would choose to protect/save his daughter, despite his love for the child's mother. If his relationship with Elizabeth could be casually minimized to, "his arranged marriage partner" as you've done, then his decision would have been made already with the outcome of protecting Paige to the exclusion of Elizabeth much more obvious. But because of that love and loyalty to Elizabeth, the outcome isn't so obvious.
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post #2100 of 2305 Old 04-16-2017, 08:02 AM
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Ok so let me clarify...
It's not what they[the Centre] want, but if the Jennings become a liability they will be history, there is always a chance for that so termination is always in the cards. It's more of back up measure than a primary one, of course they want them back as heroes if possible.
OK, thanks for clarifying. The thing that threw me is your use of the term, "in the cards". I interpret that saying as being absolute. If something is, "in the cards", the outcome is inevitable. Not just a possibility.
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